Writing is torture!!!

[DragonFaerie]

What do you guys use for 3rd grade writing? Should DD be writing paragraphs on her own or am I expecting too much? She reads at a 7th grade level so writing shouldn't be this difficult. I am using a writing workbook that guides her step by step through writing a short paragraph each week but it's torture! She can't seem to manage even the easiest steps without my "help" (and by "help" I mean that when I give her suggestions, she just writes down what I say rather than using that to come up with her own ideas).

 

We are more than halfway done with this school year so I don't want to buy anything expensive. I'm planning on buying Voyages in English and Story Grammar for next year and really working with her to tackle grammar and writing head on. But for this year, I'm tempted right now to just scratch writing completely for the rest of the year and go back to having her do copywork. I quit doing that before because it just seemed like busywork but we need to do something. Or do we? Should I maybe start Story Grammar now? Help!

[twogirlsmommy]

My DD9 started reading at 3 1/2, so you would have thought that writing would be no big deal....boy was I wrong! I used Writing with Ease last year and it really helped. Last year I would ask her to write a sentence and she would say, "What's a sentence?" Drove...me....nuts. I used some story starters and she seemed to be okay with the writing in WWE. I really liked this approach and really got her ready to write.

 

This year (4th grade) we started CQLA and she is writing 2-4 paragraph essays. I honestly think it is a developmental thing and she just wasn't ready to write. Reading is taking in information...writing is putting out information, two very different things. I would do copywork, dictation, and even narrations where she narrates something to you, you write it down and copies it.

[boscopup]

Head over to the Peace Hill Press website and get the audio lecture on teaching writing in the elementary years. Then get Writing With Ease (workbook or textbook), and start doing narrations as suggested in the lecture and the WWE book.

 

Reading and writing are two completely separate skills, and reading level is usually going to be ahead of the writing.

[justamouse]

Head over to the Peace Hill Press website and get the audio lecture on teaching writing in the elementary years. Then get Writing With Ease (workbook or textbook), and start doing narrations as suggested in the lecture and the WWE book.

 

Reading and writing are two completely separate skills, and reading level is usually going to be ahead of the writing.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[ShutterBug]

I'm in the same boat.

 

Ds (3rd grader as well) is and has always been an excellent and voracious reader. I logically assumed that writing would follow suit, lol.

 

I had a bit of a freak out this year because I know that in the public schools they really start amping up writing expectations in 3rd grade. :glare: What I didn't realize, that I do now, is how much of a skill learning to write really is.

 

What frustrates me the most is that ds can write composition books filled with creative stories using correct spelling, grammar and punctuation. However, give him a directed writing response...for example, write a descriptive paragraph explaining snow to someone who has never seen it and he crumples to an anxiety ridden mess.

 

This year we've been using....

 

M, T, W and Th

WWE 3 (for narration and dictation)

**he really struggled with summarizing when we began this, but has GREATLY improved since the start of the year**

 

M, W and Th

Paragraph Town (for paragraph instruction and practice)

 

F

Paragraph assignment

A weekly paragraph assignment (narrative, descriptive, informative, compare/contrast, etc...)

 

He also gets daily writing practice in his cursive skill book (Abeka). Each day is some penmanship practice, a bit of copywork and then the requirement of some sort of original response...usually just a few sentences about a nature/animal topic which requires using the dictionary in the back of the book.

 

I will say that progress was slow and painful at first, but it was there and as the year goes on he's progressing even faster. :)

Edited January 25, 2011 by ShutterBug

[DragonFaerie]

I don't really understand the problem, either. Sometimes she can write just fine (writing history narrations, for example) and other times she can't seem to figure out anything to say. Even doing journal free writing becomes a chore because she can't seem to come up with anything to say. That's why I bought this writing book. It gives a topic and then step by step instructions, writing only a small bit each day. But even so, she gets tangled up in trying to figure out what to say. (Today she couldn't come up with a favorite food to write about.)

 

I'm not wild about WWE anyway but I really don't want to buy and start new curriculum this late in our school year. Are there any free (or incredibly cheap) resources out there? Or would I do better to focus on copywork and start over with writing next year?

[phathui5]

If you're trying not to buy something, I would focus on copywork, narration (where she sees you write down what she says) and dictation (you tell her what to write). Drop the creative writing for a while.

[boscopup]

I'm not wild about WWE anyway but I really don't want to buy and start new curriculum this late in our school year. Are there any free (or incredibly cheap) resources out there? Or would I do better to focus on copywork and start over with writing next year?

 

The audio lecture I mentioned is $3.99 - very cheap for what it does. It explains how you go about teaching your elementary child how to write. Then you could do your own work on copywork, narration, and dictation - all of that is exactly what you need to do to learn to write.

 

Seriously, listen to the lecture. It is totally worth the $3.99. It even talks about this issue of someone wanting you to journal and you have nothing to say. Not everyone is wired for creative writing, and that's ok! It's not a skill you really need unless you're a novelist or something, in which case you'll naturally do creative writing anyway (and for a child that does that and is interested, a curriculum that teaches creative writing would be useful).

 

I have never in my life had to explain to someone who'd never seen snow what the snow is like. :lol:

[DragonFaerie]

The audio lecture I mentioned is $3.99 - very cheap for what it does. It explains how you go about teaching your elementary child how to write. Then you could do your own work on copywork, narration, and dictation - all of that is exactly what you need to do to learn to write.

 

Seriously, listen to the lecture. It is totally worth the $3.99. It even talks about this issue of someone wanting you to journal and you have nothing to say. Not everyone is wired for creative writing, and that's ok! It's not a skill you really need unless you're a novelist or something, in which case you'll naturally do creative writing anyway (and for a child that does that and is interested, a curriculum that teaches creative writing would be useful).

 

I have never in my life had to explain to someone who'd never seen snow what the snow is like. :lol:

 

You have a good point about the creative writing aspect. She has actually written several five-paragraph papers and seems to do fairly well with them. Maybe it's a problem with writing fiction versus nonfiction. Hmm... food for thought.

[NCJessieRN]

Head over to the Peace Hill Press website and get the audio lecture on teaching writing in the elementary years. Then get Writing With Ease (workbook or textbook), and start doing narrations as suggested in the lecture and the WWE book.

 

Reading and writing are two completely separate skills, and reading level is usually going to be ahead of the writing.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: I Just listened to it yesterday! It was SO helpful!

[ShutterBug]

I have never in my life had to explain to someone who'd never seen snow what the snow is like. :lol:

 

I know, lol. I was trying to go for SIMPLE. Snow...it's white, cold and fluffy. It's fun to play in, etc...

 

We live in Buffalo for pete's sake...he should be familiar enough with snow that he doesn't stress about describing it!

[DragonFaerie]

LOL.. Sounds like my kid! She had to write about why pizza is her favorite food. Her first complaint was that pizzaisn't her favorite food. Her favorite food is cheese! How in the world do you describe cheese and write about why it's your favorite? UGH! Why couldn't we just go with the pizza? LOL.. we skipped that lesson altogether.

[8filltheheart]

In post #33 and 34 in this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239259&page=4 I explain how I teach my kids to write. Once they are writing independently, I pull very specific assignments (narrow the topic for them) from reading, science, or history.

 

One of the biggest frustrations that kids have when given a writing assignment that is too broad is that they are overwhelmed with what to say. For example, write a paragraph about frogs......welll there are books written about frogs. Where should they start? A simpler assignment for a child to conquer would be write a paragraph about the life cycle of a frog or write a paragraph about how frogs breath. When the assignment is focused and narrow, they have direction.

 

HTH

 

ETA: For the pizza example, a narrowed topic would be "describe your favorite pizza." Then you could ask them specific questions to help guide them. For example, do they like sauce or white pizza? what toppings do the like? do they like it steaming hot or cold from the fridge? I agree that why for pizza is rather lame. I wouldn't want to write about it either. :)

Edited January 25, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[DragonFaerie]

In post #33 and 34 in this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239259&page=4 I explain how I teach my kids to write. Once they are writing independently, I pull very specific assignments (narrow the topic for them) from reading, science, or history.

 

 

Wow! That's a great explanation. It seems that I have messed up with grammar and writing all the way around. I've been treating them like separate subjects rather than teaching them together. I'm really putting a lot of faith into VIE next year because it does teach both concepts together. And I've messed it up with my youngest because I tried to teach this stuff before he can read confidently.

 

I am definitely making some changes for how we do things next year with both kids. As for the rest of this year, I will either keep my DD going on the writing but walk her through it step by step (which is a problem because she tends to just write down what I say, rather than come up with her own ideas), or I'll drop writing until next year. I'd hate for her to get behind but struggling through isn't helping anyone. We'll still do history narratives and she does write short answers for her science lessons, too. I just don't want her to be behind.

[8filltheheart]

Wow! That's a great explanation. It seems that I have messed up with grammar and writing all the way around. I've been treating them like separate subjects rather than teaching them together. I'm really putting a lot of faith into VIE next year because it does teach both concepts together. And I've messed it up with my youngest because I tried to teach this stuff before he can read confidently.

 

I am definitely making some changes for how we do things next year with both kids. As for the rest of this year, I will either keep my DD going on the writing but walk her through it step by step (which is a problem because she tends to just write down what I say, rather than come up with her own ideas), or I'll drop writing until next year. I'd hate for her to get behind but struggling through isn't helping anyone. We'll still do history narratives and she does write short answers for her science lessons, too. I just don't want her to be behind.

 

Please don't think you have been teaching her incorrectly! there are lots of ways to teach writing. I just thought I would share what works for us.

[DragonFaerie]

Maybe its not so much teaching her incorrectly as it is that I don't understand the problem. For comparison, she couldn't do the favorite food writing assignment yesterday. So instead, we started on her history report (King Tut). We wrote the skeletal outline and I explained to her how to finish it. She'll be able to do that and turn the outline into paragraphs and compose a final paper without too much trouble. This is her 3rd five-paragraph paper this year. The first was a comparison of the Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief book versus the movie. The second was a report on Helen Keller. Why can she write a more advanced paper on a given subject but she can't write a simple paragraph about her favorite food? Maybe if I understood the problem, I'd be better able to fix it.

[laughing lioness]

Head over to the Peace Hill Press website and get the audio lecture on teaching writing in the elementary years. Then get Writing With Ease (workbook or textbook), and start doing narrations as suggested in the lecture and the WWE book.

 

Reading and writing are two completely separate skills, and reading level is usually going to be ahead of the writing.

:iagree:

Andrew Pudewa (IEW) says don't even start formal writing instruction until 3/4th grade. I LOVE WWE and I LOVE IEW. Both focus on writing. Writing is challenging enough without making it about 2-4 other subject areas at once.

[cam112198]

:bigear:

[mom2myboys]

The audio lecture I mentioned is $3.99 - very cheap for what it does. It explains how you go about teaching your elementary child how to write. Then you could do your own work on copywork, narration, and dictation - all of that is exactly what you need to do to learn to write.

 

Seriously, listen to the lecture. It is totally worth the $3.99. It even talks about this issue of someone wanting you to journal and you have nothing to say. Not everyone is wired for creative writing, and that's ok! It's not a skill you really need unless you're a novelist or something, in which case you'll naturally do creative writing anyway (and for a child that does that and is interested, a curriculum that teaches creative writing would be useful).

 

I have never in my life had to explain to someone who'd never seen snow what the snow is like. :lol:

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I got it and will listen to it later today. I have a 4th grade reluctant writer.

[NanceXToo]

Last year when my daughter was in 4th grade (and at that point, if she'd been born even ONE day later, she'd have been in 3rd), she required a good amount of handholding for all writing assignments.

 

This year in 5th she's doing it much more independently although sometimes still needs some help.

 

She too is above age and grade level for reading (she took a few reading assessment tests online just last week and tested at an 8th grade level).

[DragonFaerie]

Thanks. It's nice to know I'm not alone in this. I think what I'm going to do is use Story Grammar for Elementary School right now. I was saving it to use in conjunction with VIE next year but I think now might be better. I like how it gives example sentences and teaches them to look at and consider how the sentence is written. That seems more productive to me than just giving her more copywork.

[8filltheheart]

Maybe its not so much teaching her incorrectly as it is that I don't understand the problem. For comparison, she couldn't do the favorite food writing assignment yesterday. So instead, we started on her history report (King Tut). We wrote the skeletal outline and I explained to her how to finish it. She'll be able to do that and turn the outline into paragraphs and compose a final paper without too much trouble. This is her 3rd five-paragraph paper this year. The first was a comparison of the Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief book versus the movie. The second was a report on Helen Keller. Why can she write a more advanced paper on a given subject but she can't write a simple paragraph about her favorite food? Maybe if I understood the problem, I'd be better able to fix it.

 

Part of the problem may be the different types of writing. Writing a report is factual. Writing about your favorite food is descriptive as well as forming an opinion.

 

Different types of writing also require different types of organization. For example, some writing is more chronological (for example, sequence of events) while other writing is more spatial (like describing a room).

 

Mastery of one type of writing does not necessarily translate to mastery of another b/c they are really very different processes. It may be that the creative, descriptive type writing is still outside of her comfort zone. FWIW......my children have all found spatial type writing far more difficult than chronological.

 

I wouldn't just skip those types of assignments, but I would definitely modify them by narrowing the topic so that she has direction on how to achieve what skill is targeted. No one really cares what her favorite food is. The question is really can she express herself as to why she has formed the opinion that x is her favorite food.

 

You could try creating an assignment that is more visual so that she can look at the image. That way when she is describing why she likes something she can look at it and "see" why and can then translate that into words. For example, a picture......is it the color, the technique, the scene, does it create an emotion.

 

Alternatively, you could try have her describe a room or a scene outside, etc. Those are going to be more spatial type assignments.

 

I just did a quick google and skimmed a couple of sites that might help you see the bigger picture of the end goals.

 

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/composition/organization.htm

http://faculty.washington.edu/ezent/impo.htm

 

HTH

 

ETA: I couldn't remember how old your dd was, so I went back to your OP and looked. Your dd is very advanced in her writing skills. I would NOT worry one iota if she is having problems with those types of assignments. If it makes you feel more confident, my third grader is still working on simple paragraph construction with help and I am not worried in the slightest. ;)

Edited January 26, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Colleen in NS]

Head over to the Peace Hill Press website and get the audio lecture on teaching writing in the elementary years.

 

:iagree:

 

Also, OP, I know you said you aren't wild about WWE, but did you read the first two chapters of the instructor text? They were available to read on the PHP website, and might still be. They might give you more insight, too.

[DragonFaerie]

ETA: I couldn't remember how old your dd was, so I went back to your OP and looked. Your dd is very advanced in her writing skills. I would NOT worry one iota if she is having problems with those types of assignments. If it makes you feel more confident, my third grader is still working on simple paragraph construction with help and I am not worried in the slightest. ;)

 

Thank you. That does make me feel better. ;) She does seem to do pretty well with factual writing but I think descriptive is what throws her off. I like the idea of giving her something to look at and describe. I am going to start Story Grammar (after she finishes her King Tut paper) because it gives so many examples of wonderful sentences. We'll try the describing something visual, too.

 

Thanks everyone!

[cjbeach]

My DD9 started reading at 3 1/2, so you would have thought that writing would be no big deal....boy was I wrong! I used Writing with Ease last year and it really helped. Last year I would ask her to write a sentence and she would say, "What's a sentence?" Drove...me....nuts. I used some story starters and she seemed to be okay with the writing in WWE. I really liked this approach and really got her ready to write.

 

This year (4th grade) we started CQLA and she is writing 2-4 paragraph essays. I honestly think it is a developmental thing and she just wasn't ready to write. Reading is taking in information...writing is putting out information, two very different things. I would do copywork, dictation, and even narrations where she narrates something to you, you write it down and copies it.

Almost a complete ditto to this. Also using CQLA