MCT or Rod & Staff English

[Staceyshoe]

I'm really struggling with what to do for grammar and writing for next year. We are condensing WWE and FLL, but it's still painfully slow. I think ds has already mastered the intended objectives of both programs (in his current level). He's so hungry to learn and what we are doing now is busywork.

 

Here is what I'm thinking about, but I'm very open to other possibilities:

 

1) R&S English for grade 3. Right now almost every subject ds has is teacher-intensive, so the thought of getting him something independent would make such a difference in my days. I'm not excited by the samples I see online because it reminds me of boring grammar worksheets that I did as a kid, but I recently ordered a copy so I can get a better feel for the program. If there is a lot of writing, that may cause a problem with ds's fine motor skills. (He will be 6 y.o. next year.) We may stick with an accelerated WWE for his writing because I like SWB's approach. What are your thoughts? Too much writing? Will it turn into busywork?

 

2) MCT. I keep hearing raves about this, especially for kids who hunger for more more more info. Ds and I are both very structured thinkers. Ds likes getting a framework and then plugging in info into neat little categories in his mind. From the comments I read, this program is not structured that way. I'm also very concerned that my grammar knowledge may not be adequate to teach it. (I think I read that there's not much hand-holding for the instructor?) I've read and read and read about it, but I can't seem to get a good feel for exactly what this program is like. Maybe I need to purchase it so I can actually look through it. Is it too scattered for a learner like ds? It's also teacher-intensive, right? How time consuming would it be?

 

3) Stick with FLL and WWE and accelerate as possible.

 

I've been pouring over this decision for months now. Please help me decide!

[Diviya]

I think #3 is your best option. Rod and Staff is lots of writing; you would have to do it orally, which takes away the independent thing. WWE and FLL are so short and sweet and easy to accelerate.

[catz]

I think #3 is your best option. Rod and Staff is lots of writing; you would have to do it orally, which takes away the independent thing. WWE and FLL are so short and sweet and easy to accelerate.

 

:iagree: I am doing the same thing with my advanced 6 year old. Although we don't use WWE - I come up with free writing/journaling ideas for her based on other things we are doing or FLL.

 

My HG-PG oldest didn't really do any grammar until he was actually a 3rd grader (2 years PS, 1 year laid back homeschooling previous to that). He was writing/spelling/reading years above grade level at that point. And it has made all the difference in the world with application and retention of grammar concepts. He is using MCT for the record and is doing Town level this year. MCT is easy to enhance and enrich for more gifted kids, so I think it's better to start that a year too late than a year too early. It's also teacher intensive and probably best for whole picture learners. If your child likes one concept introduced and applied at a time, MCT would not necessarily be a good fit. At least for us, it worked great when we were well beyond thinking about spelling and reading. My 6 year old is there in terms of reading, but isn't a fluent writer yet so we're waiting it out.

[2smartones]

We're using R&S. If we come to something that has never been covered in the past, we'll do it orally together from the book. Otherwise, I use the worksheets. I quickly glance through the page, see if anything stands out in my mind as something that would trip him up, and then let him go with it. Yes, it's a worksheet, but he knows he can work 5 minutes on English and be done. (The more time leftover for Legos, the better. :lol: ). My 5 year old is doing the 3rd grade book this semester. He did 2nd last semester. There is a ton of repetition, but I think he'll slow down when he gets to the 5th grade book next year. For writing assignments (in any subject), he doesn't write them with a pencil, he types the story in his blog.

[MaMa2005]

I'm using two out of the three programs you mentioned. DS is 5 and PG. We did FLL1/2 and WWE1 Fall Semester. This semester we are using WWE2 and MCT Island. We accelerate WWE so that it doesn't become boring. DS likes MCT - we finished Grammar Island in 2 weeks and are re-reading it again at DS's request.

 

I'm not in love with MCT, but bought it due to all the rave reviews about it being good for gifted children. DS likes it and I'm surprised as he is very much a "by the book" Bobby type of child - everything in its place, etc. I am also a very structured teacher and MCT has pushed me a little in order for it to fit in my way of thinking/teaching. We will finish all of the Island since I spent a small fortune on them, but I don't know if we will continue with the next level. R&S looks like it is more our style.

[abbeyej]

From what you say here, I'll also recommend #3. R&S is *not* particularly less teacher-intensive at level 3 than FLL3, and it *does* require that the child write quite a bit. Actually, I think you'll find it very difficult to come up with much that is significantly less teacher-intensive *until* he can write more on his own. It's just a fact of life.

 

I think you and your son may enjoy MCT as supplementary material, but I think you need a strong base going into it, unless you plan to use it alongside a more traditional grammar/mechanics/writing program as you go. Perhaps consider using it in a couple of years.

 

As to making WWE and FLL work for you... Sit down over the weekend and skim through the next several lessons in FLL. Figure out what is new, what is practice or review that might be useful to your son, and what is simply superfluous. Use a pencil and cross through the things you don't consider worth doing, or jot down on an index card what you *do* think worthwhile, whatever, but just figure out what does make sense for you to spend a few minutes working on each day that you'll be doing grammar. You don't have to do every exercise or even every lesson in the book. Keep an eye on the back of the book where there's a list (at least in my older edition there is -- not sure how it works in the newer copies) of all the things the child is expected to understand or have memorized over the course of the book. As long as he can do all of those and has really internalized them, it doesn't matter if it takes you 3 weeks or a year to finish the book.

 

With WWE, feel free to ask more of him than the book does. If he's still using sentences for copywork, but you think he's ready for dictation, use the sentences as dictation instead. If you're still writing his narrations for him, perhaps it's time that he starts doing one or more of the sentences as copywork as well. (If he's still not totally comfortable with the writing, you could write it very lightly in pencil for him and let him trace over it with a colored pencil of his choice. It's a good transition-to-longer-copywork technique. You can also write in highlighter and let him use a pencil.) Maybe he's ready to copy his whole narration. Or maybe he's ready to use his narration as dictation. Or maybe he's ready to write his own. If he has mastered a skill, you can move on to the next step, even if the "script" in the book is still plodding along. ... Or maybe he's ready to move on to the next WWE level.

 

But teaching very little ones -- even particularly bright and capable little ones -- tends to be rather teacher intensive. :) It won't always be. But those early skills really do require pretty close interaction.

[Denise Allen]

I only have experience with R & S. It is AWESOME!!! We used Abeka for 9 years & switched to R&S this year. Wish we would have started with it.

 

It can be done orally, on paper, in your book, you can order the worksheets & do those (they are used for some lessons, not all). The lessons are explained soooo well- it even makes the diagramming easy & the lightbulb will go on as to WHY we diagram & why we do it the way we do.

 

All three of my children using it LOVE it. They do not find it boring at all.

 

It is soo well thought out & organized.

 

It only takes us about 10 minutes for my 2nd grader and about 20 minutes for my 7th & 8th grader.

 

** I ordered several yrs. of R&S at once since I didn't know which level/grade would be good for my kids. I ordered them from scratch & dent so they were quite a bit cheaper.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Denise Allen

[Dmmetler]

I'm trying to decide as well. My DD LOVES workbooks, loves being able to check off boxes, and has really taken to the grammar in LfC A, which makes me think that maybe Shurley would be a better fit for her next than MCT-but MCT also sounds like a lot of fun for a languagy-kid.

 

I wish curricula weren't so expensive. It's very tempting to buy both.

[2smartones]

We're doing R&S and LfC together with wonderful success. When trying to decide between R&S and Shurley, I went with R&S for the cost and because I knew people personally who used it. I'm glad I chose it. I've looked at Shurley while browsing in Mardel's, but it didn't appeal to me as much as I thought it would. R&S is very complete, but also very easy to understand. It's something that can be done as slowly or as quickly as needed, and can be done with a lot or a little writing. Very flexible.

[HeidiD]

2) MCT. I keep hearing raves about this, especially for kids who hunger for more more more info. Ds and I are both very structured thinkers. Ds likes getting a framework and then plugging in info into neat little categories in his mind. From the comments I read, this program is not structured that way. I'm also very concerned that my grammar knowledge may not be adequate to teach it. (I think I read that there's not much hand-holding for the instructor?) I've read and read and read about it, but I can't seem to get a good feel for exactly what this program is like. Maybe I need to purchase it so I can actually look through it. Is it too scattered for a learner like ds? It's also teacher-intensive, right? How time consuming would it be?

 

 

 

Re MCT - I decided to give the "Paragraph Town" set a try, but when it came in the mail, my first reaction was, "What do I do with this big pile of stuff?!!". I prefer streamlined, structured materials that are pick-up-and-go. These books present the topics largely in an ongoing story and discussion form, with a moderate amount of practice sprinkled in. I was hoping to combine a couple of my kids together. But the first time I started reading one of the books to them, it became apparent that my 8 yo couldn't stand sitting and listening to it. Tried it again with my older child alone (11 yo, dyslexic) and he LOVES it. I have him read the books to me rather than reading them to him. It's definitely a far more engaging presentation than I've found with other programs. I think that it would be a great program without supplementation for a kid who enjoys the study of language and writing, and maybe also a good choice if you're trying to rev up a bit of enthusiam for a subject your kids find generally unappealing (our case). The way I've decided to use this is to have them do it together, taking turns reading it aloud to me and have them do a few of the exercises twice a week, and also use more structured materials for writing and grammar for the remainder of the week. So I'm giving it an hour or two a week, and we'll finish it whenever we finish it. :)

 

Re "too much writing", whatever curriculum you use, you can just adapt the writing demands (or ditch them altogether if that's what works best for you at the moment. :))

[HappyCamper]

My 8 year old daughter loves MCT. It takes alot of parent time, but she is so engaged (she even appreciates the art) that I think she is learning more AND developing a love of grammar and poetry. I do not have a strong grammar background and so far it has been fine. And we both love the cuddle time on the couch. I think for a child who has not developed fine motor skills MCT would be a terrific fit. I think for a parent who is short on time, MCT is a not-so-terrific fit.

[Staceyshoe]

Once again, you guys are amazing! I think we'll either do R&S or FLL/WWE. I have both here, so we might do a little start on each and then drop one. You have brought up some great ideas for accelerating and adapting "too much writing." Thank you all for your words of wisdom and encouragement!

[Storm Bay]

For a 6 yo, I'd do either 2 or 3. You can do a great deal of paragraph town orally, and the story is great. However, be sure you've mastered sentences, because this program was designed for gifted dc and is something like 3rd grade and up. Ds and I do the oral part of Paragraph Town together. I have the TM, and that's all I have, so I don't know how it would work to do the entire package.

 

R&S can be done orally for a lot of it, but the diagramming really needs to be written. You could have your dc dictate what to do, of course.

 

Does your 6 yo have normal 6 yo fine motor skills (not enough for 3rd grade work, I know) or behind for 6?

[2smartones]

R&S can be done orally for a lot of it, but the diagramming really needs to be written. You could have your dc dictate what to do, of course.

 

Yes, diagramming is important. We use a little dry-erase board a lot, so it works great for R&S English, too.

[Staceyshoe]

Does your 6 yo have normal 6 yo fine motor skills (not enough for 3rd grade work, I know) or behind for 6?

 

I would say it's average. He actually writes very well but fatigues easily. Writing a couple of sentences wouldn't be a problem, but I wouldn't have him write a whole paragraph at one sitting.

[kbed0849]

We have used FLL and WWE. THis fall I purchased MCT for my DS 7 and DD 6. They both LOVE it. I think it is a perfect way to develop a love for language,grammar and poetry. I don't think it requires more time than other programs. If you are a box checker you will not like it. However, I think it is perfect for gifted children who are able to learn advanced topics but may not want be ready for a great deal of writing activities. (sorry for any typing/grammar errors...this mom is tired!!) Thought I should mention that since this is a post on english!!!

[Storm Bay]

I would say it's average. He actually writes very well but fatigues easily. Writing a couple of sentences wouldn't be a problem, but I wouldn't have him write a whole paragraph at one sitting.

 

That is normal. It takes time for dc to develop the stamina, etc, to write for any lenght of time. What I did for my ds was have him do more workbooks at that age so he could do more writing, but in short bits. However, ds was behind in his fine motor skills; he is catching up now, at 10.5. He hit a new stage of coordination late last spring when he started going from one of the worst swimmers on the swim team to one of the strongest in his age group, and it's now hitting the fine motor area. What's interesting is that he has always had coordinated feet, and I wonder how much taking 2+ years of tap helped him (he's since quit since there always seem to be girls that bother him.)

 

Other ways to help build finger stamina are folding socks, playing a keyboard instrument such as the piano, etc.