Ginevra Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 No, I'm saying that if someone is struggling to know God (not even Calvinism or anything else specific, just struggling with their faith in general,) it's because He has given them that desire. That is still not comforting to me. Why would God say, "Yes, I choose you for my own, but I'm also giving you the kind of mind that will not easily accept any of it. So much better for you to be in anguish all the time." And besides that, I still don't find anything comforting in the idea that God chose me while others were left with no hope of redemption. And besides that, it also attributes a racism type of preference to God, as some cultures/ethnicities/backgrounds are far more likely, if they will be "of faith" at all, to embrace the Christian God. So, has God especially elected a large proportion of light-skinned people of European descent? On the flip side of that, though, would be that if your child doesn't come to faith, it's not because it wasn't God's will, but because you did something wrong in raising them? It wouldn't be for me, because I don't think a child growing up to reject the faith of their family necessarily points to the parent "doing something wrong" in raising them. Once they are adults, they make their own decisions. It's a far worse thing to say that there was never any possibility of their redemption because God already said NO to them before they were conceived vs. saying they turned away from God on their own conscience. (Besides which many children do turn away from their family's faith for at least a short while as they define their own beliefs for themselves. Even Franklin Graham has said this about himself.) And, if it would be better, I am willing to take this to a new post. I didn't want it to turn into a disrespect towards Heather, whom I admire. I think I'll do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in C-ville Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Your post reminded me of this Jonathan Edwards quote, “But I remember the time very well, when I seemed to be convinced, and fully satisfied, as to this sovereignty of God, and his justice in thus eternally disposing of men, according to his sovereign pleasure. But never could give an account, how, or by what means, I was thus convinced, not in the least imagining at the time, nor a long time after, that there was any extraordinary influence of God's Spirit in it; but only that now I saw further, and my reason apprehended the justice and reasonableness of it. However, my mind rested in it; and it put an end to all those cavils and objections. And there has been a wonderful alteration in my mind, in respect to the doctrine of God's sovereignty, from that day to this; so that I scarce ever have found so much as the rising of an objection against it, in the most absolute sense, in God's showing mercy to whom he will show mercy, and hardening whom he will. God's absolute sovereignty and justice, with respect to salvation and ****ation, is what my mind seems to rest assured of, as much as of any thing that I see with my eyes; at least it is so at times. But I have often, since that first conviction, had quite another kind of sense of God's sovereignty than I had then. I have often since had not only a conviction, but a delightful conviction. The doctrine has very often appeared exceeding pleasant, bright, and sweet. Absolute sovereignty is what I love to ascribe to God. But my first conviction was not so.” Blessings to you, Heather! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecj98 Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Yes of course, but it wouldn't add a single thing!? If you don't believe in predestination it makes sense why we have to 'do' these things. Because I believe that God predestined the end (salvation) as well as the means (evangelism, preaching, training of covenant children, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Your thread prompted me to do a search & re-read some of the other reformed vs. arminian threads. I noticed you had posted a really interesting thread about doubts you had about it or the like. That previous post really resonated with me so I'd love for you to try to respond to yourself, your prior questions, since you have now "turned to the dark side". :bigear: Thank you for sharing your journey. :001_smile: Prior thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79070&highlight=calling+calvinists Wow. I had forgotten all about that post. Thank you so much for linking it as it really reminds me of all the steps of this journey. There was a time even before that post two years ago that I did not get any of the the 5 points and I can see where I was at then and where I am at now. Again, thank you. To answer your question as to what has changed in me since then...it is summed up by one thing: why did God create us in the first place? What is our purpose? Once I understood the answer to that question all the pieces fell into place. The answer: We are created to glorify God. Period. All my other questions and doubts about how it just doesn't seem "fair" that God would elect some and not others and it is "mean" and what about our right to "choose"...I realized they were all coming from a very human mind-set. We want everything to "make sense" from a human mind-set and we humans (especially Americans) are all about freedom to choose and our value as human beings. We think God owes us something...we have RIGHTS darn it! He should see our worth and save us all! But we were not created for our own glory...we were created for His. In addition, we do NOT get to determine what is "good" and what is "evil". God determines that. Good is God and anything God does. If God does it, says it, wills it, then it is GOOD whether it falls into the "human" definition of good or not. My purpose in life is to glorify God in all I say and do and I often fall short of that. God did not create me because He just "knew" I would be a cool person. :D I am not a cool person. I am a sinner. I deserve NOTHING. AT. ALL. And if God chooses to save me then that is His choice and He does it to glorify Himself. But since NONE of us "deserve" salvation at all and truly do not even want to be saved...if He chooses to save some it is His choice and not due to anything in me that deserves it...not because of any inherent value I have...and if chooses not to save some, well, honestly, they don't want to be saved anyways...just like I did not want to be saved either...if God had not put that desire into my heart it never would have happened because of some clever choice I made on my own. Never. Again, for me it was a pride issue. I wanted God to fit into the definitions I had created instead of fitting myself into God's defintions. If God does it, it is GOOD whether it agrees with your own definition or not. So that is where I am at now and it IS both restful and challenging as a PP put it. But I finally get that it is not about me and THAT is the best part.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 :grouphug: I remember chatting with you many times about these things, Heather. I'm so glad that you're always open to God's leading.:grouphug: Oh Ronette! I miss you! You were so patient with all my questions and doubts and you really did a lot of the work for my brain! :D I was so hoping you would see my post because you planted some very fruitful seeds indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 My grandfather being the personification of the hard-headed Calvinist. I think the doctrine is quite beautiful and freeing at the same time. As I determined at a pretty young age that I was not elect, it was quite freeing - Carpe Diem, baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Anyone have any left over Christmas cookies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OregonNative Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Congrats!! Could you answer a question for me about the non-belief in Free Will w/in TULIP and Protestant based faith in general? I am REALLY struggling with this a lot as I was raised Lutheran and had no idea that free will was denied by the church and many others. DH and I were just reading about Calvinism last night") I. Total Inability. Man has sunk so far through the Fall that he is no longer capable of believing the gospel. He can no more repent and believe than a dead man can rise up and walk. This is all the result of the sin of Adam, who communicated this absolute inability, this loss of free will, to all his posterity. Here are some things that confuse me: This loss of ability to receive spiritual truth is one of the consequences of Original Sin, If this is true, wouldn't we find some mention of it in the Genesis account? Yet there is no record there of God imposing this curse of Total Inability on man's nature. There are other curses listed. God pronounced the death sentence, which He defined as a return to the dust (Gen. 3:19). Such language obviously denotes a physical death, not a loss of spiritual ability or a death to God. God decreed the presence of "thorns and thistles" to make toil more difficult (v.18). He told the woman that she must endure great pain in childbearing (v.16). Both of these curses are trivial compared to what would be the most debilitating curse of all: the removal of all ability to respond to God. if total inability is true-why didn't God tell us that? Two primary texts adduced to prove the doctrine of Original Sin (Rom. 5; 1 Cor. 15) say nothing about Total Inability The Bible never says Adam and Eve were made morally perfect. I also cannot find where it says Adam's sin immediately corrupted him and rendered him unable to respond to God. Nor can I find where God transmitted this inability to all of Adam's descendants.Our first parents did lose innocence when they sinned. Their eyes were then opened to good and evil, prompting them to hide from their Creator (Gen. 3:7,8). But it is another thing altogether to say that they fell from a state of moral perfection to total depravity. If however, this inability was passed to us, then wouldn't it make it impossible to comply with the command to believe in Christ? It would then make the Gospel and unreasonable demand. In essence, how could God who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), knowing the command is impossible to obey? It doesn't seem Jesus himself was a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" (v.12). Had those people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? The first point of TULIP tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call." Jesus sometimes "marvelled" at the unbelief of his hearers (Mark 6:6). But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God. Here is a quote from George Burnap "If this doctrine is true, God did not tell man the true penalty, neither the truth, nor the whole truth, nor a hundredth part of the truth. To have told the whole truth, according to this hypothesis, He should have said, 'Because ye have done this, cursed be that moral nature which I have given you. Henceforth such is the change I make in your natures: that ye shall be, and your offspring, infinitely odious and hateful in my sight. The moment their souls shall go forth from my hand...if they are suffered to live, such shall be the diseased constitution of their moral natures: that they shall have no freedom to do one single good action, but everything they do shall be sin....What an awful blot would such a curse be on the first pages of Scripture!"6 I would love to hear your thoughts and sorry to hijack. This has been earting at me since last night. Edited January 2, 2011 by OregonNative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Anyone have any left over Christmas cookies? Just a few, but I am happy to share! I can also make mixed drinks. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Just a few, but I am happy to share! I can also make mixed drinks. :D Yum! What ya got? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Yum! What ya got? :D I have silver tequila, malibu rum, triple sec, white wine, champagne and sweet and sour mix on hand. What's your poison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Congrats!! Could you answer a question for me about the non-belief in Free Will w/in TULIP and Protestant based faith in general? I would love to hear your thoughts and sorry to hijack. This has been earting at me since last night. [/size] [/color][/size][/font] This says it better than I could: http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OregonNative Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 This says it better than I could: http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html :grouphug: Thanks Heather!:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhomemaker25 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 While I do not fully embrace all aspects of the Reformed faith (I still believe in believer's baptism rather than infant baptism, still dispensational rather than covenant, etc.)...both dh and I have come to fully embrace the 5 points of Calvinism. :001_smile: That's about where I fall on the Reformed side of things as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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