Towards more understanding of grades . . .

[jld]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/education/26grades.html?pagewanted=1&ref=us

 

Do you think this is a good idea? Why or why not?

[flyingiguana]

Artificially setting a limit on the number of A's (or any grade) has always seemed a bit suspect to me. If it's a smaller class, it's entirely possible that everyone in it might do well. So why shouldn't they all get the grade they deserve?

 

Although, admittedly, most of the time, it's the students who provide the curve, not the professor. There are generally a few slackers who don't do too well and a couple of folks who seem to be *trying* to fail, so this question is very often moot anyway. Even in the "easy" humanities there are students doing this.

 

One interesting story from my TA days -- one kid in the class was doing just miserably. One day he came by to check on his grade. He was told he was failing and there wasn't much he could do to save himself. He got a big grin. "Great," he said. "Now my parents can't force me to go to med school."

[Gwen in VA]

My random thoughts:

 

* If everybody gets A's, grades are meaningless.

 

* I agree that for small classes, artificial limits won't work, but for large classes I do see that limits may be helpful.

 

* Having looked at my dd's college transcript a few days ago (she s a senior), I definitely think that adding more info to the transcript would make an already cumbersome document totally unwieldy, but perhaps giving the median grade for the classes in the major would help. That way the transcript would show the classes where a B was truly a good grade and the classes where a B is actually below average.

 

* At my kids' school, 10% of kids taking organic chemistry flunk it every semester. Some majors give lots of A+'s. Some majors and some professors have never given an A+ and give few A's. There is a HUGE amount of variation as to how grades are handled, even within a major.

 

* Excessive grade inflation starts to make the system at Oxford University look pretty good. Students take a grand super final exam at the end of their three years but students aren't actually graded in each course. That way their university degree actually indicates how much knowledge they are truly walking away with, rather than how much extra-credit they did for a prof who was lenient with poor students.

[TravelingChris]

I went to a school without much grade inflation. I don't approve of schools that have hard grading. No, that doesn't mean I think everyone should get an A. But I don't like arbitrary limits. Sure, there are people who deserve poor grades. I would rather have the school have great standards and have students meet them and get good grades. Why am I so adamant about this? Because I know that many jobs (federal government, for example) choose who to hire or what job to place them in based on grades. I only got to be a GS 7 because of my grades in grad school. My grades in college (and no, I wasn't flunking out-) weren't high enough. I simply went to a hard school where the average GPA in my major was 2.95 and I had 3.2 but USA wanted 3.25 since they disregarded what school you had attended. Just like I did better than average in my hard school, I did better than average in grad school and in Immigration school (where I was the top student). So I am strongly advising my daughter not to go to a hard grading school since it will be harder to get a job or to go to grad school.

[Teachin'Mine]

TransientChris that's exactly the problem I'm faced with for high school. I know this is in the college forum, but the same can be said for high schools. There is such a huge discrepancy in how grades are applied, but the bottom line is that colleges look at the GPA and the transcript. The transcript will indicate, somewhat, whether the courses were rigorous or not, but the GPA will usually be what it is and be compared with others - the higher the better the chance of getting in. Same as you mentioned for getting into grad school or getting the higher level jobs. And I think that it's totally unfair that you can't qualify for high level jobs because of the GPA. :confused:

 

I don't think it's likely that an entire class qualifies for an A, but neither do I think it's right to limit that class to only x number of A's. Like most things, there has to be a happy balance somewhere. I think that, for the most part, we had that balance when I was in school. Obviously things have changed and now the reaction is to go in the totally opposite direction, again to an extreme.

[distancia]

I went to a college that does not have grades, but rather, a Pass/Fail system, if you will. At the start of the semester you and your advisor draw up a contract saying you will take X amount of classes and you will fill Y number of goals. At the end of the term each of your professors writes an evaluation which determines if you (somewhat) completed the work, i.e. the terms of the contract. http://www.ncf.edu/home/about-us/mission

 

Of course, this works best for highly motivated students and it sure thins out the ranks quickly! That is why my college has such a high freshman turnover rate, as most students can't handle the ambiguity of "no grades", never mind being self-motivated to perform at a higher level.

[jld]

TransientChris that's exactly the problem I'm faced with for high school. I know this is in the college forum' date=' but the same can be said for high schools. There is such a huge discrepancy in how grades are applied, but the bottom line is that colleges look at the GPA and the transcript. The transcript will indicate, somewhat, whether the courses were rigorous or not, but the GPA will usually be what it is and be compared with others - the higher the better the chance of getting in. Same as you mentioned for getting into grad school or getting the higher level jobs. And I think that it's totally unfair that you can't qualify for high level jobs because of the GPA. :confused:

 

I don't think it's likely that an entire class qualifies for an A, but neither do I think it's right to limit that class to only x number of A's. Like most things, there has to be a happy balance somewhere. I think that, for the most part, we had that balance when I was in school. Obviously things have changed and now the reaction is to go in the totally opposite direction, again to an extreme.[/quote']

 

TM, a lot of homeschoolers have said that colleges look more at standardized tests than GPAs for their kids. Is there a specific college you are looking at that relies on GPA?

 

And I'm sure you're giving your daughter a great foundation. :) That's what's really important, right?

[TravelingChris]

Actually, more schools consider GPA and course selection higher than test scores. This is from their own self reporting, not my opinion. I think many of them do not have the time or inclination to look at homeschoolers differently. When you have 20,000 applications, it is hard to do.

[Tullia]

 

Although, admittedly, most of the time, it's the students who provide the curve, not the professor.

 

 

 

IME this is true for most college classes. The only exceptions I've seen were from small seminars which had enrollment restrictions--even then you'd see some variation. However, I do remember from my days as a TA the dept. chair letting us know he'd keep an eye on our grade distributions because the student course evaluations were so important for potential PhD candidates.

[8filltheheart]

oops, wrong thread

[Maverick]

I agree that this is also a problem for high schools--in some ways much more far-reaching for high schoolers since many more people apply to 4-year colleges than grad school or careers where college gpa is taken into account. I was concerned about my ds's transcript b/c he had a couple C's last year in classes that he didn't care for & didn't want to make an effort beyond the bare mimimum. Although his transcript shows that he took challenging coursework, I was afraid the bottom line gpa would be a black mark on his record. I was so surprised when an admissions counselor told us that at ds's first choice school they don't look at gpa at all! Because they recognize that gpa is meaningless due to rampant grade inflation in some places and tough grading in others, they use standardized tests and class rank as indicators of a student's academic performance. For homeschoolers they use standardized tests only. I tell my ds he is lucky he found the only college in the country that doesn't care if he has a few C's on his transcript!

[TravelingChris]

WHat school is that? It might be what my last one will need. She is a good test taker but very lazy.

[Maverick]

United States Military Academy. :-)