Greek before/instead of Latin?

[kokotg]

Is that allowed? :lol:

 

DS9 did a bit of (Lively) Latin last year, but we were trying to do Spanish at the same time, and, basically, I came to the conclusion that I could do one or the other well, but not both. My own background is in Spanish and we have access to tutors who are native speakers. So we dropped Latin and have been doing Spanish relatively intensely (all three kids are now in outside Spanish classes, we're doing Puertas Abiertas, and my oldest will start Galore Park's Spanish whenever I get around to ordering it).

 

My intention was to get a good, solid start on the Spanish, keep it going, then add in Latin in 5th or 6th grade and maybe one more language in high school (and hope it doesn't feel as much like spinning plates as it sounds ;)). I'm having trouble getting excited about Latin, though. Honestly, I'm more interested in Greek, and I suspect it might appeal more to DS, too (although, truth be told, he wasn't/isn't particularly resistant to Latin). I am convinced that Latin is Good For You and that it does all sorts of amazing, wonderful things to brains. I am not necessarily convinced that it's the only path to those wonderful things, however.

 

So....can I do Greek first, with the possibility of adding Latin in later? Is there a reason not to? I am completely open to being convinced one way or the other on this, so....convince me!

[forty-two]

I think the usual reasons for suggesting Latin before Greek is because:

 

a) it's traditional :tongue_smilie:

b) it uses (basically) the same alphabet as English - less intimidating than having to learn another alphabet

c) there are better resources for younger kids, probably as a function of a & b

 

I struggle with the Latin thing sometimes, because, honestly, the only reason I want to learn/teach it is because of the Latin cachet :001_huh: (and because it *is* interesting in itself). I want to learn Hebrew to read the OT, and I want to learn Greek to read the NT and Homer and some plays. But there's nothing I *really* want to read in Latin, at least not as much as I want to read Hebrew and Greek. I mean, the Aeneid would be fun, I suppose, as would the Vulgate. And I'm sure that Livy and other historians would be interesting, too - but interesting enough to learn Latin? Instead of other things? Yet I do find it fun to learn on its own, so I plod on. But I'm focusing more on Greek/Hebrew at the moment, since I care more about that.

 

Anyway, learning a language is hard work - I see no reason to plod through one you don't care about to get to one you do ;). Learn what you want to learn, even if it may be harder at first :).

[Quad Shot Academy]

We decided to do Greek before Latin for the reasons you mentioned and because Greek is more relevant to our daily lives. Our pastor mentions Greek words in almost every sermon. When the kids learn enough, they will be able read an interlinear Bible, daily, for the rest of their lives, if they want. There seems to be many more ways to keep practicing Greek than Latin.

[Karenciavo]

I prefer Greek to Latin and would have introduced it first to my youngest, but he wanted Latin so we went with that.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Karenciavo
for clarity

[Aubrey]

Well...I had Latin in college & have been working on learning Greek on my own off & on. I have to say, for *me,* knowing the mechanics of Latin first really simplified the process. Latin was very natural for me, though, & Greek less so.

 

I'm sure it depends on the individuals--my first response when I read your title was, "Well...Greek came first...why *not* study it first?" But upon reflection, I guess that depends. :001_smile:

 

Either way...I sort-of think one's approach to/love of a language can really depend heavily on the instructor/curric. I loved Latin from the beginning because I love the logic of Wheelock. I loved Greek initially because what's his name, the guy who wrote the blue book, is so likeable. I mean, I read the intro to dh's Greek text. And some of the logic of Wheelock was able to be applied to the Greek text where I found its order confusing.

 

Otoh, Lively Latin has lost some of its shine, imo, & dh's 2nd yr Greek text was absolutely abysmal. His prof wrote it, & it seemed like its only purpose was to be *different* from the blue book guy. What's his name. The one wanted to make Greek approachable; the other wanted people to be in awe of him for knowing Greek so well. Too bad, really.

[Dawn E]

I debated over this a bit myself. I was intrigued by Latin...and also intimidated by it. :) I studied Ancient Greek in college, so I'm biased towards it. I had thought about starting in Greek and doing Latin later on--kind of the reverse of the typical route. I ended up deciding to do both. So far I'm not regretting the decision. :D If any problems do occur from studying both, we'll focus on Greek and come back to Latin later.

 

Greek is more challenging initially because of the new alphabet, but ultimately, after that hurdle is jumped, I think they are equally challenging. And, learning the alphabet can be a lot of fun for children. The Greek Alphabet Code Cracker is a great way to start. I also like the new book available at Biblical Greek 4 Kids. We started slowly since dd was only in 2nd, and spent a full year just having fun while focusing on learning the alphabet. It definitely doesn't take that long...older students can master it rather quickly. However, with her being so young I didn't feel the need to rush into any program. Also, as has been mentioned, there aren't that many options available for a prolonged study in Greek for elementary children. My goal right now is to complete the EG series and then move into Athenaze. We may take another year in Koine and reading the NT before moving into Attic.

 

I find both of these classical languages fascinating puzzles in themselves. I find nothing wrong with you picking the one you are most interested in and starting (or staying) there...especially if your dc are more interested in that one as well.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Dawn E

[Sahamamama]

Is that allowed? :lol:

 

DS9 did a bit of (Lively) Latin last year, but we were trying to do Spanish at the same time, and, basically, I came to the conclusion that I could do one or the other well, but not both. My own background is in Spanish and we have access to tutors who are native speakers. So we dropped Latin and have been doing Spanish relatively intensely (all three kids are now in outside Spanish classes, we're doing Puertas Abiertas, and my oldest will start Galore Park's Spanish whenever I get around to ordering it).

 

My intention was to get a good, solid start on the Spanish, keep it going, then add in Latin in 5th or 6th grade and maybe one more language in high school (and hope it doesn't feel as much like spinning plates as it sounds ;)). I'm having trouble getting excited about Latin, though. Honestly, I'm more interested in Greek, and I suspect it might appeal more to DS, too (although, truth be told, he wasn't/isn't particularly resistant to Latin). I am convinced that Latin is Good For You and that it does all sorts of amazing, wonderful things to brains. I am not necessarily convinced that it's the only path to those wonderful things, however.

 

So....can I do Greek first, with the possibility of adding Latin in later? Is there a reason not to? I am completely open to being convinced one way or the other on this, so....convince me!

 

Many, many children in the US learn English as their mother tongue, and then easily go to Hebrew school to learn that quite different language, complete with a different alphabet, different vocalizations, different directionality, different way of forming and morphing words, and so on.

 

I remember being impressed when my friend's little six year old son read Torah passages in Hebrew, but the family thought it was just the normal way of things -- expose them to it, teach them explicitly, and why wouldn't they learn? IMO, if it could work for a young child with English/Hebrew (or English/Chinese or English/Japanese), then why not with English/Greek?

 

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/why_study_greek.php

 

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/three_levels_to_mastering_greek.php

 

Karen, if you pop back in here, could you explain why (after all these years of teaching your boys Latin and Greek), you have come to prefer a Greek-first, then-Latin approach? I'm curious about why you see it this way, and I value your insight. Thanks.

 

Beth in New Jersey :seeya:

Edited November 18, 2010 by Sahamamama

[kokotg]

Now, see, I thought you guys were going to yell at me and tell me that of course I have to do Latin first :). I'm definitely leaning toward Greek now. Because I think Saille is so cool, I I might just follow her recommendations and give Greek Code Cracker a whirl after the first of the year, and, assuming that goes well and I don't change my mind again, start Greek for Children next year. I talked to DS about it, and he definitely votes for Greek.

[Dawn E]

Now, see, I thought you guys were going to yell at me and tell me that of course I have to do Latin first :). I'm definitely leaning toward Greek now. Because I think Saille is so cool, I I might just follow her recommendations and give Greek Code Cracker a whirl after the first of the year, and, assuming that goes well and I don't change my mind again, start Greek for Children next year. I talked to DS about it, and he definitely votes for Greek.

 

Sounds like a great plan! That was a really good review she wrote for GfC; she almost swayed me away from EG. :) You'll have a great time with the Code Cracker. I think you'll be very happy with your choice.

[Kates]

I love Greek - I studied to be a Bible translator - but having taught both, I can tell you that my students who have taken Latin before taking Greek do considerably better in the course, and catch on to difficult grammar concepts more quickly.

 

Latin is sort of the bridge between Greek and English - the alphabet is similar to English (duh), but the sentence structure and "pictoral" nature of the language are closer to Greek. These can be difficult to handle while you're also trying to figure out the alphabet, the breathing marks, the tenses that don't exist in English (like aorist), and the complex parsing. When you have a couple of years of Latin under your belt, Greek suddenly makes a lot more sense.

 

It's not necessary to take Latin first - but it does make it easier.

 

FWIW, I strongly recommend LfC and GfC - easily the best (and most user-friendly) texts I've seen yet.

[Karenciavo]

Karen, if you pop back in here, could you explain why (after all these years of teaching your boys Latin and Greek), you have come to prefer a Greek-first, then-Latin approach? I'm curious about why you see it this way...

 

No other reason than I think Greek is a more beautiful language.

 

My youngest loved Ian Bogost's voice, from the time he was a toddler he went to sleep listening to EG1, 2, & 3 cds just about every night. By the time he was ready to learn an ancient language in school he knew a lot of the vocabulary and grammar chants and the alphabet. I was very surprised when he insisted on Latin.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Karenciavo

[Dawn E]

I love Greek - I studied to be a Bible translator - but having taught both, I can tell you that my students who have taken Latin before taking Greek do considerably better in the course, and catch on to difficult grammar concepts more quickly.

 

Latin is sort of the bridge between Greek and English - the alphabet is similar to English (duh), but the sentence structure and "pictoral" nature of the language are closer to Greek. These can be difficult to handle while you're also trying to figure out the alphabet, the breathing marks, the tenses that don't exist in English (like aorist), and the complex parsing. When you have a couple of years of Latin under your belt, Greek suddenly makes a lot more sense.

 

It's not necessary to take Latin first - but it does make it easier.

 

FWIW, I strongly recommend LfC and GfC - easily the best (and most user-friendly) texts I've seen yet.

 

I think you are definitely correct and for those whose plan is to study both of these languages, it makes the most sense to start with the most logical choice which offers up the least amount of hurdles. However, I think there is much to be said for an individual's interest in and desire to study a language. Looking back I see that I started with the most difficult--Attic--and afterwards Koine and Latin do seem easier, though still very challenging. But, I was passionate about the Greek language and had a strong desire to learn it. Younger kids are such sponges for languages...I think if you have the interest it is the time to go for it.

[Kates]

I think you are definitely correct and for those whose plan is to study both of these languages, it makes the most sense to start with the most logical choice which offers up the least amount of hurdles. However, I think there is much to be said for an individual's interest in and desire to study a language. Looking back I see that I started with the most difficult--Attic--and afterwards Koine and Latin do seem easier, though still very challenging. But, I was passionate about the Greek language and had a strong desire to learn it. Younger kids are such sponges for languages...I think if you have the interest it is the time to go for it.

 

Definitely, a passion for a language will go a long way. I was just sharing what I've found with my students - that since Greek is a pretty big leap from English in a lot of ways, it's nice to have a "bridge". I work with kids from 9-18, and this is something that I've observed with a large number of them.

 

Not saying that you have to take Latin in order to be successful in Greek, just sharing another viewpoint. :001_smile:

[Dawn E]

Definitely, a passion for a language will go a long way. I was just sharing what I've found with my students - that since Greek is a pretty big leap from English in a lot of ways, it's nice to have a "bridge". I work with kids from 9-18, and this is something that I've observed with a large number of them.

 

Not saying that you have to take Latin in order to be successful in Greek, just sharing another viewpoint. :001_smile:

 

I think I have a bad habit of coming off combative via the written word. I most definitely didn't want to make you feel that way...in fact, I wanted to emphasize that your point was a very valid one. I just felt, and likely unnecessarily, the desire to encourage the OP in her choice despite the fact that it may seem illogical.

[Ester Maria]

From one of my earlier posts about this topic:

 

I have mixed feelings on this one, honestly.

 

Even though, theoretically, there is perfectly nothing wrong with starting with Greek (on the contrary, it might actually be preferred in some cases - especially in cases of modern Greek speakers whose linguistic and cultural background is obviously directly derived from it), or even with doing exclusively Greek and never adding in Latin later... I would still venture to say that there are at least a few good reasons why, if you plan on eventually learning both, it's a tradition to start with Latin, in Western and Mittel-Europe at least.

 

One, Latin is a lot closer to your linguistic (and probably also cultural) background and thus an easier language to break the ice with and start to study the classical antiquity with. This is especially important in case of children, because it makes it easier for them to connect to the language.

And two, possibly even more important, you have to keep in mind that the initial stage of learning a classical (or any) language is the stage of morphology - syntax comes later. And in this aspect, Latin and Greek are quite the opposites - syntactic simplicity of Greek is compensated with a lot greater morphological difficulty, and quite the opposite for Latin. Or, put more simply: Latin is a lot easier to learn in the first stage of learning, while Greek is considerably harder, and the opposite is true for the second stage, when you already begin to read texts. For this reason, in classical schools in Western/Mittel-Europe, usually 2-3 years are allowed before adding Greek, to master one morphology, and then master syntax as one works on the other morphology, equipped by the experience of mastering Latin morphology first.

[Kates]

I think I have a bad habit of coming off combative via the written word. I most definitely didn't want to make you feel that way...in fact, I wanted to emphasize that your point was a very valid one. I just felt, and likely unnecessarily, the desire to encourage the OP in her choice despite the fact that it may seem illogical.

 

No worries! I tend to come across as pretty blunt as well, just wanted to clarify where I was coming from :)