Comparison of IEW, CW, and WT from website. I'm curious what our local beekeepers

[Shasta Mom]

think of this categorization of the goals of these programs. If my ds is headed for science, should I abandon plans for WT or CW? Is this hogwash?

http://classicalreadingandwriting.wordpress.com/2007/04/28/iew-classical-writing-or-writing-tales/

[Kimber]

I wrote this, and I say absolutely not!

 

The reason I said what I said is this--

 

Many engineers are, IMHO, born that way. ;)

 

My dh and I are engineers. And at least one of my three ds's will probably be an engineer--the oldest. However, this son is in Writing Tales. My dd10 is in CW. She might be one too.

 

Some kids who are engineering and math minded simply prefer programs that are straight to the point. They like formulas. IEW teaches writing in a formulaic way. For these boys and girls, IEW is excellent. But this doesn't mean it should be exclusively for them. Many people would benefit from the structure that IEW offers. I, personally, prefer the structure it teaches to CW.

 

This post is just my take on how these three programs compare and what I see as there differences and similarities.

 

HTH!

 

Kimberly

 

(Another Edit--I'm using WT with my son because it's good and it's open and go. It's high qulaity and it gets done with very little prep time on my part. It teaches grammar and writing all together. Something IEW doesn't do.

 

My dd10 is in CW because it is such a high quality program. It however stresses me out because of all of the page flipping. I had to modify and thanks to a post last week, I can modify it even more to help us streamline. CW offers a lot that IEW doesn't have, especially if you skip the dress ups and decorations in IEW. By adhering to the formula of requiring certain dress-ups, students do learn grammar in IEW. But it's a pain and somewhat passive, and it can sound awkward. It does work especially if a student writes all of their sentences the same. The grammar lessons are in the dress-ups, and I don't like the formula requiring x number of dress-ups. I think that CW does the same with the 6 sentence shuffle as an exercise. But those sentences are not required and don't show up in the writing assignment, for the most part.

[PeterPan]

Well just as an observation, I wouldn't consider Kimber's blog exactly a comparison of the features of these programs. If you want that, you'd make a chart and really look at them:

 

-use models or require original content from the student?

-fiction, non-fiction, or both?

-models from classic authors or modern?

-narrative or structured writing?

-videos?

-scripted tm?

etc.

 

I think it's fair to say that some kids are going to go farther in certain curricula than others. However I think that's a personality thing, not something you can guage by what the dc THINKS his profession will be one day, lol. Kids change their majors 3-5 times in college, so there's just no way to correlate what you do in *3rd* grade to what they want to major in or become as a profession. But as a statement of personality and bent, obviously kids who like analysis, have the capability to do it, and thrive on it will do well with the analysis and logical bent of CW. Some kids are more straightforward and will appreciate the straightforward, checklist approach of IEW. That's personality, not something deragatory and certainly not saying that you're SHORTCHANGING your dc if you chose one curriculum over another. Any dc who does any of those will be well-prepared to move on to the next level.

 

Sooner or later all kids have to do substantial amounts of non-fiction writing. CW seems to take quite a while to get there, meaning it doesn't satisfy the average consumer. That means you either end up doing IEW or something else for non-fiction, structured (paragraph) writing on top of your CW/WT sequence. You'll notice a lot of people doing that around here.

 

Finally, I think people underestimate WT based on looking at the grammar sequence. The grammar is a small component at any given stage but culminates 2nd semester of WT2 in it's applicability to writing skills. In WT2 we've covered numerous sentence openers and stylistic devices (like IEW dress-ups in SWI A and B), sentence combining, all sorts of things. It's very advanced content that carries over well into non-fiction writing. I think it's stuff many kids are not naturally doing, and it shows that the grammar sequence belies the serious writing content it builds to. Also, the models are quite long, typically 2 pages typed.

 

Well that's enough of my two cents. I don't actually disagree too much with what Kimber said, just saying that for a real comparison you'd have to actually compare what the programs do and how they do it. She was more extrapolating on the overall sense of them and for whom they might be appropriate.

[Kimber]

Well that's enough of my two cents. I don't actually disagree too much with what Kimber said, just saying that for a real comparison you'd have to actually compare what the programs do and how they do it. She was more extrapolating on the overall sense of them and for whom they might be appropriate.

 

You are exactly right in what my intentions were. Thanks.

 

Kimberly

[TracyR]

I can't really comment too much on IEW . I've seen very little of the program . It does take you step by step but uses the same methods of CW and WT . At least from what I have seen .

I don't think that it really matters which program you use . As long as it works and it teaches your child to write .

I have been told by those who have used WT2 that it is better then Aesop B and after completing you can easily go right to Homer with no problems .

I really think either way that all three will take you to the same point . Just that Writing Tales only has two levels right now and the author isn't sure wether she will be able to continue with the rest quite yet due to family life .

I love Writing Tales as it takes me step by step , it talks to me and not over me . I've looked at Classical Writing Aesop and Homer and though it uses the same methods in teaching writing it talks way over my head and alot of it I don't understand at all . Amy's WT's is so simple to use , you don't need to guess what she is writing about . She talks to you and not over you . The program is easy for me and for my daughter's to implement and they can do alot of it independently . Plus I'll admit the games are a plus and it has kept my daughters enjoying the program . Its the first thing they ask to do every day . I don't see them doing the same if we were using IEW or CW at all . I do know that Logos is also similar as well to these other programs too .

I'm not sure at all if I agree with the review yet as I haven't used IEW or Homer .

[Kimber]

Btw, my "absolutely not" was in reference to abandoning CW or WT because your child is science minded. :tongue_smilie: However, I don't think my comments were hogwash either. :D

 

One last comment, if you prefer CW or WT, definitely do whichever you prefer even if your child is headed for a career in math or science. If, and I mean if, your child has difficulty with these because of his personality, then IEW might, and I mean might, work for him. ;)

[siloam]

think of this categorization of the goals of these programs. If my ds is headed for science, should I abandon plans for WT or CW? Is this hogwash?

http://classicalreadingandwriting.wordpress.com/2007/04/28/iew-classical-writing-or-writing-tales/

 

No! Have you ever seen a patient? That is persuasive writing, so it a lot of science writing. My dh does this type of writing.

 

I always figure you should shoot for the moon, and she how far you get. Down the road, CW might not fit, but for now it keeps doors open. We can always move to something else, but moving from something to CW isn't as easy.

 

Heather

[Shasta Mom]

I didn't think your comments were hogwash - far from it!! I loved the insight and I really enjoyed how you elaborated on it. Pretty funny that I put your own post in front of you:). I'm just so curious about all these writing programs (could you tell?!) and am taking it all in. I am a science type with a masters in engineering and so envy some of the more liberal ed folks who have had such wonderful writing instruction. It's so much more than I had, and I did well in writing in college. I think the dialogue is great and I'm learning a lot here............

[Another Lynn]

nor do I consider the writing instruction I received to be anything great, but.... I've been wondering for at least a year what I should do for writing....

 

I've only looked at samples online for WT, CW and IEW (including some of the Logos materials), but I ultimately decided to buy CW Aesop when I saw it available used. IEW just looked like TOO much structure to me - too many hoops to jump through etc. WT looked better, but still seemed to require using certain words in the rewrite, etc. Plus I'm not a games person and I don't think ds would like the opportunity to change the story creatively. (I think I tried the sample lesson with him earlier in the year). CW seemed to *me* to offer more flexibility (I guess they all offer flexibility depending on which parts you want to implement and which parts you want to discard). Also, I like the tie in to our spelling with CW as we already use SWR. I think a pp mentioned that you do exercises with CW with various words, sentences, etc., but they don't necessarily have to end up in the rewrite. That appeals to me!

 

When I considered more "modern" style writing curriculum I concluded that we either weren't ready for it yet, or it was so watered down that while it might be more on our level it just seemed silly, or I didn't like the tone it took, etc. I'm not a great judge of curriculum until we actually try it. So please take these thoughts with a huge grain of salt!

[TracyR]

Oh no I don't think any of your thoughts are hogwash Kimber . Actually its interesting . I know I can't say wether I agree or not because I have only used WT so far . I've seen a bit of the IEW format at a conference and it probably could work for us too BUT there's that crazy stuff called money we don't seem to have enough of ! LOL . Plus if I make things a game for my girls they seem to retain things better so I'm assuming they are hands on kind of girls :>)

 

I'm curious have you used all three programs in your homeschool ? Is that how you've come to these conclusions ? How did you come to these conclusions ? Just curious that's all .

[Kimber]

Thanks for the kind words. I must say that when I read your post, I panicked. I was immediately filled with dread that I had swayed you away from your hearts desire and that my post was causing you angst over your first choice.

 

I hope that wasn't the case. I wanted my post to encourage not discourage. And I've read the post from OhElizabeth. I agree with most everything she writes. She has great insight.

 

Good Luck!

 

Kimberly

[Kimber]

(This was to go under TracyR)

 

I have used all three programs, but not all of all three programs. :D

 

I teach high school writing with IEW SWI C. I actually bought TWSS and SWI C (I got one new and one used.)

 

I use WT1 with my son, and prior to WT's creation I used CW Aesop A and B with my dd. She's finishing up Homer A now.

 

When I got bored of Aesop at home, I switched my kids over to IEW via the TWSS.

 

I see common threads through all of these programs. And they are all very good. My posts on the three was my way of documenting what I thought about each of them.

 

I wish I had a better way of explaining what I like about these programs. I know I sound redundant. :)

 

WT is great fun and a great program. My son adores the creative writing aspect of it. And it's so user friendly, that it almost guarantees itself to get done. Next year we may postpone our use of WT2 only because we'll be using Total Language Plus at co-op. If my son takes that class, we will postpone WT2 until the next year. Plus he just turned 8 and if the models in WT2 are that much longer, then he probably won't be ready for them for a little while. But we are definitely going to go on to WT2.

 

For my dd10, we'll be doing CW Poetry next year along with Total Language Plus for 5th and 6h graders kids. I like CW enough to make sure we keep doing it. The year after, we'll go on to Homer B.

 

IEW, I will be teaching again next year at the highschool level. I teach the dress-ups and decorations that some don't like. This method forces kids to experiment with varied sentence structures. It's great practice. The problem is that I see some students just throwing sentences out there according to the formula with no heed to the content. The formula can become the rule.

 

However, the structure taught can compensate for this, if the kids adhere to their outlines. The structure part of IEW is really good. I think SWB has recommended that the stylistic techniques be omitted unless a kid really needs help varying their sentence structure. The structure alone in IEW is worth the money--especially if you find it used. :)

 

Kimberly

[PeterPan]

You know, this is cracking me up that I went out on a limb in another thread suggesting that Shasta would like IEW, just based on what you gather of her personality online. Then she fesses up that she's an engineer, fitting with what Kimber was just saying about engineers and certain types of people appreciating the straightforward, formulaic approach of IEW. How's that for a crystal ball? :)

 

(not that I have one, just thought it was funny!)

[Shasta Mom]

but I soooo don't fit the profile of an engineer and in graduate school I slunk in the hallways and hung out with the scientists...........

[Kimber]

Neither do I. But I can talk the talk if I have time to prepare myself mentally. My dh is an engineer through and through.

 

My suggestion is opposite of OhE's, even though she knows what she's talking about. :) If you like WT, give it a try. It's low enough in price and of such good quality that it wont hurt much if your ds doesn't mesh with it. This isn't true of IEW. It's pretty expensive to buy just to try it out. Same with CW. You can always pick up just the core used and give it a go.

 

And if you're gonna just try out WT, you might forego the TM until you know for sure you're gonna use it. I've referred to it a few time, but definitely more later on. Also, I don't do the games. My ds doesn't even know there are games in the curriculum. My ds 5 and ds 3 take up too much of my time to do the games too. I say this because I don't know if you need the TM to do the games or not.

[PeterPan]

Kimber, That's so interesting that you've taught through IEW SWI C! I spent a good deal of time with IEW at the convention, and I was really, really impressed with it. Like you say, the way it carries over the stylistic devices into structured writing is so sensible and orderly, something that would actually get DONE. And like you, I see the value in tackling those skills in isolation so they can become proficient and apply it to new situations. What I've seen with WT2 is another way of getting to this, where you can start with their writing and find places that naturally work to try out those techniques. It seems a little more natural to me and wouldn't result in perpetually stilted writing. I don't think it's a problem to have stilted writing for an EXERCISE, but then you'd want to see it applied to their own writing in more natural, appropriate ways. And really, that's what has clicked in my mind in the last month or so, that IEW could be really cool if you had the freedom to do that with your student, doing the exercise and then quickly going into more original writing where you bring in those techniques, not as a checklist. I think that's what the more capable kids really need but is harder to make happen in a class? It breaks my heart to hear about a kid sitting in an IEW class and being bored, unhappy. (Not that I've heard a lot of those stories, but I've heard at least one and can imagine there are more.) I think it's the advanced kids, the ones who go from concept to application very quickly, who would have that problem.

 

So anyways, that's just a rambling way to say doing WT2 has opened my eyes to how I could teach IEW more interestingly. I haven't done IEW yet, and I have to do SOMETHING for non-fiction, structured writing. $$ is a little tight right now, but maybe this summer? And I really don't know what level I would buy, whether the teacher's videos or the SWI, etc. Any thought on that? I guess the way I envision using it, with my little theory, is to let her do the lesson, do the exercise (rewriting the model, using the checklist), then do a writing project that is her original writing, an application where she can pull together those skills. That's my theory at least. And I assumed SWI would work for that. The models get more sophisticated in SWI B and the length in SWI A seems more like what I'm looking for. Bummer is, SWI A doesn't parallel the devices we've covered in WT2. I'm not sure I want to get the teacher's videos, because I'm not sure that's what I need. I sat at the convention and read through the entire A student workbook and have printed off the online lessons to go with it. It all makes sense to me. Nuts, I could probably teach it from just those free lesson plans they provide. (It's not rocket science, lol.)

 

Well it will all work out. Sometimes $$ is providence keeping you from mistakes. :)

[PeterPan]

Absolutely agreeing with Kimber! If you like WT, do WT. If you've looked at IEW and are drawn to it, then go with it. They are exactly like what they look like and enough different that you should TRUST YOUR GUT. I think that's all any of us have really been saying, to look at your kid and trust your gut. I also like her suggestion of doing just the student workbook for WT1, if you need to save money. Remember too you might find it around online used. Nuts, I might just have a used one I could sell you. ;) You'll want the tm for WT2, because there's more story analysis, background, grammar study, etc. For WT2, the games really do add so much to the understanding and enjoyment of it. (We played a fun one with sentence combining last week. Wasn't hard to do but sure added a lot to the dc's understanding of it.) For WT1, I think you could wing it. Not that I'm encouraging that as a general rule, just saying you could still get the writing done and be happy.

 

You're going to like whatever you chose. If you like both, you could do WT now and IEW later, when the $$ is there. WT would make a very good foundation for going into IEW.

[Mama Lynx]

think of this categorization of the goals of these programs. If my ds is headed for science, should I abandon plans for WT or CW? Is this hogwash?

http://classicalreadingandwriting.wordpress.com/2007/04/28/iew-classical-writing-or-writing-tales/

 

My husband is an engineer, and very much wishes he had been put through a program like CW.

 

(Frankly, I have a degree in English, and I wish I had been through such a program as well!)

 

My sons are likely to be engineers - they're very science-minded. We are using CW. In fact, because they're so very science and engineering-minded, I strive to use programs and material that will force other areas of their brains to wake up and thrive. Yes, CW is hard for them. I'm okay with that.

[Kimber]

OhElizabeth, I think for me you have identified the one area of IEW that I personally find difficult to teach in a class--

And really, that's what has clicked in my mind in the last month or so, that IEW could be really cool if you had the freedom to do that with your student, doing the exercise and then quickly going into more original writing where you bring in those techniques, not as a checklist. I think that's what the more capable kids really need but is harder to make happen in a class?

 

This is so true! The feedback I'm getting from the parent who is familiar with IEW is that one of her son's is definitely carrying over the techniques in his other writings.

 

For their end of year paper, I've required my students to follow the IEW structure for a super essay and only demonstrate all of the techniques and dress-ups for two paragraphs. I know it doesn't seem like a lot, but I just wanted a cursory demonstration that they've grasped it all fully.

 

I really like IEW. But as for teaching it to your own daughter, I wouldn't rush it. I know it's good, but with what she's already done with WT2, you might want to go on to Homer or do the CW poetry. I don't think I'd stress over the money part when you've pretty much got the IEW system down anyway.

[PeterPan]

You know, that's a really interesting point, Kimber. I GET how IEW works, or rather how I can carry what we're doing in WT over into non-fiction writing, so maybe I don't even need IEW. That's what I meant about lack of money being a good thing, that sometimes it keeps you from buying stuff you could have done without, if you had just been patient.

 

With the dc in my class, the carry-over from technique to writing is pretty easy to accomplish, but I think that's because I sit down with each dc for several minutes and edit their work with them. That would be really hard to accomplish in a larger class setting unless you had a tremendous amount of time. We have a list of sentence openers at the back of our WT2 book, so when we come to a stickywicket section in their draft, we can take those sentences and go through the list, trying each one on for size to get a list of suitable options. It's easy to take a small, narrative paragraph and mark beside it to add adverbs here or more description. You know, that may be another thing. The WT2 models tend to have shorter paragraphs (less overwhelming to add things to) and are just more interesting to start with. The models in IEW were interesting (I was looking at the A level), but more in a zany sense. When it comes to adding description and really getting into it, I would think a STORY format is easier for that. Duh, maybe that's why CW and WT use them? Ding, ding, lightbulb moment!! (for me at least, haha) :)

 

You know, I've been scared of Homer, and I'm not sure why. I've heard so many stories about people try and saying it's hard, say this or that, haven't been sure what to think. And Amy did mention a while back that she might have a beta for WT3 in the works one of these days. I owe her feedback on WT2, so if I get that done, maybe she'd give me the scoop on anything upcoming. Given the choice between CW Homer and a WT3, obviously I'd prefer WT3. Really, my dd has had no problem CONCEPTUALLY with WT2 at all, keeps up with all the kids. She just isn't one of those prolific, natural writers. I don't know, maybe I've done something wrong and have totally screwed up. I'm also starting to get doses of girl hormones the last couple weeks, oh my, and I'm about worn out. Do you put your dd down for naps? I know that's totally out of the blue, but I SWEAR tonight I was thinking it's the only thing that will save us! I'm tired and prego and she's tired and transitional. Everything SWB said about her mom's responses to all existential crises (you need a sandwhich, you need a shower, you need a nap-->by the time you did all 3, the "problem" was gone) is coming home to roost. Both SWB and JW praised the virtues of afternoon naps, another thing I had discounted and let slip. I declare I'm getting desperate enough to bring them back, even if she is turning 9!!

 

So there, we've gone from writing to naps, hehe! That's open to anybody, if y'all want to jump in with hormonal girl stories. :)

 

Back to writing, Kimber. Thanks for your wisdom on the IEW thing. That really makes sense to me and seems a clear path, to just apply what we've done to non-fiction as I know how. I got Wordsmith Apprentice for her to do this fall. Nuts, I could let her do it this summer if she wants. I thought she'd enjoy the newspaper format and it would be something a bit more independent, with the baby coming and all. You know, maybe that's a better idea, to let her do WA this summer and do CW Poetry in the fall? I'll have to think about that. I'm crazy good with poetry, best ad libber around. (Is that what it's called? I can take any tune and spontaneously come out with new words for any given topic, flows like butta. My only and late discovered talent, hehe. Alas there's very little money in it unless you're good enough to work for Rush Limbaugh and do parodies or write a smash hit Beethoven's Wig.) I'll definitely think about what you suggested. Sometimes I see things out of order, and I like your suggestion because it puts WA before more extensive paragraph writing, putting the skills back in order. I was assuming we'd work on paragraphs this summer, but you're right that that would be backwards. I also find it tricky to chose a path way far in advance. It seems like you get very tuned into where your dc is RIGHT NOW and when you hold something off and hold something off you end up missing that window, waiting when your gut was saying to go now. My gut says paragraphs in the future (4th grade, that long, distance land), not paragraphs now. Yup, I'm liking the idea of WA this summer because it's easy to implement, not something I have to plan out, and leads nicely into paragraphing in the fall, a goal of mine. That might not be realistic, but it's a goal.

 

Well thanks for chatting! I'll let all this congeal and something will work out. I have all these ideas (IEW-type paragraph writing, sentence summaries, current events summaries leading to public speaking, CW Poetry, WA, etc.) and I just need to let it all settle out at the right time. Somehow, with all the pregnancy hormones flowing, something I'm NOT used to dealing with, lol, I've gotten both very irritable (overtired?) and very laidback at the same time. I just figure it will all work out... Normally I buy something after extensive research, sweating, debating, critiquing, and I bought WA just like THAT, figuring it would work, she'll like it, decision done, move on. Hehe!