Italian/Spanish question.

[stormy weather]

Hopefully, you all won't think me too foolish for asking this:tongue_smilie:

Where are Rs meant to be rolled, the back of the throat or on the tongue?

I've added Italian to our studies this year and the kids are rolling the Rs in the back of their throats(I should say they are trying to). It doesn't sound right to me though, and yet they can't roll their tongues. Is that something they will pick up from hearing the language spoken? Thanks in advance :001_smile:

[Matryoshka]

Well, I don't speak Italian, but you asked about Spanish too, and that is most definitley rolled with the tongue.

 

There are some German dialects that roll the r's in the back of the throat, they could always try one of those? ;)

[Ravin]

Trilled "r" has the tongue "roll" with the tip of the tongue touching the hard palate behind the teeth where it's most prominent. The tongue is a little forward from where it is when you say "r" without rolling it, and you trill the tip against the roof of your mouth while saying "r".

 

My DD hasn't got the hang of it, either. Just have them soften their r's a bit if they can, and that can fake it until they figure it out.

[Mabelen]

Trilled "r" has the tongue "roll" with the tip of the tongue touching the hard palate behind the teeth where it's most prominent. The tongue is a little forward from where it is when you say "r" without rolling it, and you trill the tip against the roof of your mouth while saying "r".

 

My DD hasn't got the hang of it, either. Just have them soften their r's a bit if they can, and that can fake it until they figure it out.

 

Very good explanation!

[Ester Maria]

Where are Rs meant to be rolled, the back of the throat or on the tongue? [...] Is that something they will pick up from hearing the language spoken?

The Italian R is pronounced as somebody explained above; it's a vibrant sound and when it's a doppia, it's emphasized and pronounced slightly like a double sound, so your R in Roma and in ferro shouldn't be the "same" sound, the latter should be longer/doubled.

 

How to pronounce it? R is pronounced in the part of your mouth touching the hard palate, behind the teeth, and the sounds which are pronounced "geographically" the closest are T and D. For that reason, it's the best to practice the R with the words in which it follows those sounds - say, treno. That way your tongue is still about those areas and R should come more naturally than as an isolated sound, or moving from a "geographically" more distant area. When practicing it as an isolated sound, also say it after T/D, or even B/P.

After that, move to R that follows A, such as arrivo. "Overdo" that A to really open/spread your mouth, and try getting the R sound while slowly closing your mouth. Then move onto words where R follows a vocal and precedes L (sberla, something like that), especially if the child has R/L confusion or substitution. If I think of any other clue (they usually do these stuff with Italian kids who have issues with R - we even have a name for that "disorder" :D, it's actually relatively common), I'll write.

After that you only need to practice on words with lots of Rs and with doppie Rs.

 

Regarding "picking it up", I'd be careful with counting on that unless the child is really continuously exposed to Italian, hangs around lots of speakers, etc. In my experience, it's usually best to address the issue directly at the early stages of learning, with somewhat older children.

 

A few more tips, because I'm in a good mood.

Make sure she "softens" her L. L is a DEADLY giveaway of non-native Italian speakers, especially Anglos. L is more inside the mouth than in English, with mouth slightly more spread.

You also want to make sure she pronounces double letters (anni vs. ani and so forth).

It'd be nice if you could also point to the 7 vowels (and NOT 5! but also not the English plethora), lack of shwas English speakers tend to insert, and open/closed O/E distinction, but that's already "hardcore", if you want to really sound Italian. :D With R, L and doppie you're halfway there and it's decent enough. :)

 

Good luck!

[stormy weather]

Thanks Ladies, I'll be back later to respond a bit more. It is nearing the magic hour here and I must feed and tuck these little folk into bed. TTFN

[stormy weather]

Well, I don't speak Italian, but you asked about Spanish too, and that is most definitley rolled with the tongue.

 

There are some German dialects that roll the r's in the back of the throat, they could always try one of those? ;)

 

Thanks and I guess I'll just have to add German into the mix too:D

 

Trilled "r" has the tongue "roll" with the tip of the tongue touching the hard palate behind the teeth where it's most prominent. The tongue is a little forward from where it is when you say "r" without rolling it, and you trill the tip against the roof of your mouth while saying "r".

 

My DD hasn't got the hang of it, either. Just have them soften their r's a bit if they can, and that can fake it until they figure it out.

 

Well put. Thanks. Now to get them rolling.

[stormy weather]

Wow Ester Maria, I don't know where to start.

The double/doppia length makes good sense and the "geographical" nearness of the other letters ending point definitely helps to move into the R. That's a good way for us to practice and hopefully get closer to the rolling. I was having a bit of trouble explaining how to roll the tongue to them.

 

We know no one who speaks Italian so I will have to hunt up audio books and perhaps some children's music.

 

On to Ls:D I think I know what you mean. When I say L the tip of my tongue touches my front teeth. When I am saying L-elle my tongue is touching in the back of my mouth first and almost rolling up and then touching behind my teeth.

 

Are all doubles pronounced seperately? For example is it gat-to, instead of running the ts together as one sound as we would in english?

 

7 vowels?? What we're using only tells me a,e,i,o,u. Now I must know what are the other two?

 

Also one more question, is Y ipsilon or i greca and V vi or vu?

 

Thanks again for answering the questions of this anglo:D

Edited November 6, 2010 by stormy weather

[Ester Maria]

Are all doubles pronounced seperately? For example is it gat-to, instead of running the ts together as one sound as we would in english?

You should "blend" the sound together ("stopping" in the middle of the word to pronounce a doppia as two perfctly distinct sounds is weird), however, a small distinction must remain - if we're talking about the standard. Listen attentively to native speakers doing it to get an idea of how it sounds.

7 vowels?? What we're using only tells me a,e,i,o,u. Now I must know what are the other two?

May I ask which materials are you using, by which publisher? If they explicitly wrote that there are 5 spoken vowels, I might send them a "lovely" letter regarding this "typo"... That's not simplification for children - that's wrong. There are 5 written vowels, though.

 

There are two Os and two Es, making it the total of 7 vowels. Pronouncing standard Italian with 5 vowels, not differentiating between open and closed E/O, is technically speaking incorrect. Of course, not even all Italians pronounce everyday Italian with 7 vowels, but if we're talking about the standard language, it has to be taught that there are 7 vowels and the learners of the language should be made aware of that fact.

 

How important the distinction is, though... Not as important as in English, which has far more vowels; at times, however, it does sound a bit like pronouncing "fit" and "feet" equally - it's just that in English the discriminating quality is the length here, while in Italian it's about openness or closeness of the vowel. Not sure what else I could compare it to.

 

Other than 7 vowels, there are also 2 semi-vowels, [j] and [w], in words such as piede (which is not pi-e-de, but more like pyede) or buona (where U and O "blend" in a sort of WO sound).

 

Also one more question, is Y ipsilon or i greca and V vi or vu?

V is vu.

Y does not exist in the standard Italian alphabet (along with J, K, W and X), and it can be either ipsilon or i greca. If you opt for the latter, just don't confuse it with J, which is i lunga. ;)

[stormy weather]

What we are using is something I picked up a few years ago in Sam's Club:blush:

It's cds by Instant Immersion. There is no book, so I was looking up the alphabet online and everything I found was a little different, hence the vi/vu and ipsilon/i greca question. But back to the cd's, I listened again today just make sure I wasn't forgetting or fibbing. Sure enough, they say five vowels and each one only has one sound. Not the best choice of programs. :tongue_smilie:I was feeling like we were needing a break from latin, and had this, and here we are. The kids are enjoying it though, in a way they never did with latin:001_smile: So I'll keep at it. Is there a program that you can suggest that is well done without being expensive?:bigear: Thanks for answering all my questions.

[Ester Maria]

Sure enough, they say five vowels and each one only has one sound.

:nopity:

Incredibile.

 

Regarding other suggestions, honestly, I don't know that much about programs that teach Italian as a 2nd language, at least about those that don't require the knowledge of Italian from the instructor. BUT, you can always watch cartoons or films or listen to the music in addition to whatever program you're learning grammar with, that way you'll at least get used to the language more.

I guess it depends on how "serious" do you want to go. Do you plan on continuing with Italian until graduation, or it's just a little something as a temporary break from Latin?

[stormy weather]

Okay, I've typed out a reply twice and lost it. The long and the short of them was this.

I planned starting spanish next year and continuing it to graduation because I know some spanish speakers where I will be moving sometime this year(whenever my house has "facilities"). I guess I'll just add italian to my plan.

I'm of two minds on whether to continue with latin right now, or to put it off until middle school as Charlotte Mason suggests.:001_unsure:

[Ester Maria]

Put it off. ;) Middle school is just a fine start, really.

Regarding Italian/Spanish, good luck with the materials and all. And ask if you have any additional questions. :)