Dyslexia or not?

[HeidiD]

My 15 yo has been reading college-level tomes since 10 years of age.

 

His recent speech eval scores for Word Reading Efficiency seem relatively low for someone who reads so much and whose receptive and expressive language scores are both above the 90th percentile.

 

Sight Word Efficiency, he scored 48 percentile and Phonemic Decoding Efficiency was 73rd.

 

His oral reading accurancy was 37th percentile, but his comprehension was 91st percentile.

 

Seems like his reading efficiency is out of whack for some reason, doesn't it?

 

His neuropsychologist says no red flags for dyslexia. :confused:

 

Anything else that would cause these weird discrepancies?

[RamonaQ]

I would probably go with the neuropsych as opposed to, say, me ;) But, for my diagnosed dyslexic, his very low scores are in phonemic awareness.

[Mandamom]

I usually suspect that a person with low word reading scores and low phonemic awareness and high comprehension have a "dyslexic profile". Whether is is technically dyslexia or not is another issue.

[Laurie4b]

My 15 yo has been reading college-level tomes since 10 years of age.

 

His recent speech eval scores for Word Reading Efficiency seem relatively low for someone who reads so much and whose receptive and expressive language scores are both above the 90th percentile.

 

Sight Word Efficiency, he scored 48 percentile and Phonemic Decoding Efficiency was 73rd.

 

His oral reading accurancy was 37th percentile, but his comprehension was 91st percentile.

 

Seems like his reading efficiency is out of whack for some reason, doesn't it?

 

His neuropsychologist says no red flags for dyslexia. :confused:

 

Anything else that would cause these weird discrepancies?

 

I would have expected phonemic decoding to be lower (it's above average) with dyslexia. I think you should ask your neuropsych what his/her take is on the discrepencies.

 

For dyslexia, one would typically look at scores measuring phonemic awareness, word attack, and rapid naming.

[LizzyBee]

I would have expected phonemic decoding to be lower (it's above average) with dyslexia. I think you should ask your neuropsych what his/her take is on the discrepencies.

 

For dyslexia, one would typically look at scores measuring phonemic awareness, word attack, and rapid naming.

 

I wonder if the phonemic decoding score would have been lower if he'd been testing younger, but it's been improved by remediation. Maybe not - I'm just speculating. I didn't have my middle child tested until age 11, and by then, her phonemic decoding scores were great. But based on what I described regarding her early years, both her audiologist and EdPsych recognized that those scores were great because that weakness had already been remediated.

 

OP, you might want to look at http://www.mislabeledchild.com, and see if that information rings true. For years, I didn't think my middle child could have dyslexia because she could read. But when I read about what the Eides call stealth dyslexia, it completely described my dd. I bought the book (The Mislabeled Child), and the dyslexia chapter could have been written about my dd with the single exception that she read within normal parameters, although on the late side of normal. http://Www.visualspatial.com is another good website that might be helpful.

[cathmom]

For dyslexia, one would typically look at scores measuring phonemic awareness, word attack, and rapid naming.

 

Exactly. My dd did so badly on one rapid naming subtest it couldn't be scored. Just checked - it was rapid letter naming. She was 12 at the time.

[SailorMom]

My son reads wonderfully - but he learned whole word, because phonics is impossible for dyslexics.... at least as far as I know (this is also what our ns told us). However, there are other dys's out there...

Reading well, high vocab, etc - my son is above average in all of that, but after our neuropsych exam, the dyslexia/dyscalculia/dysgraphia diagnosis was very clear cut.

If it was a PS tester telling you this I would be suspicious - but I would go with the neuropsych.

[peacefully]

.

[cathmom]

My son reads wonderfully - but he learned whole word, because phonics is impossible for dyslexics.... at least as far as I know (this is also what our ns told us). However, there are other dys's out there...

Reading well, high vocab, etc - my son is above average in all of that, but after our neuropsych exam, the dyslexia/dyscalculia/dysgraphia diagnosis was very clear cut.

If it was a PS tester telling you this I would be suspicious - but I would go with the neuropsych.

 

I've never heard of someone with dyslexia being able to learn with a whole language approach. I wouldn't say that phonics is impossible, but it does require a lot of help. But I can't imagine my dc having been able to learn to read the other way, not when she consistently messed up sight words (she always confused "of" and "from" for example). My dd could read from the age of 7 after several years of phonics, with good comprehension, and I thought she was on grade level, only to find out that she was several grades behind. And I am working to expand her vocabulary through lots of reading aloud.

 

I'm honestly confused by your post.

[wapiti]

My neuropsychologist explained it to me this way: dyslexia is a learning disorder that has its roots in phonological processing (and is distinguished from other auditory and language processing disorders). I believe this is the most commonly accepted view of dyslexia, but I've since learned that there seems to be many competing ideas about the origins of dyslexia (visual dyslexia, auditory dyslexia, surface dyslexia, dyseidetic dyslexia, etc.). Part of the problem, I think, is that some might use the term too broadly — to refer to any learning disability that impedes reading and writing. Another issue is that dyslexia shares the same features and symptom set as many other learning disabilities that have their origin in other processing issues.

 

My son, although much younger, seems similar to your son. When we had him tested, he had outstanding scores in phonemic awareness and across the board in most language areas. Yet, he consistently skips words, skips lines, transposes words, replaces words with other words... His oral reading is really atrocious. Still, he comprehends what he reads beautifully. Somehow, he is able to completely flub his oral reading and still understand what he just read. :confused: He also has a very rich vocabulary, grasps complex syntax, etc.

 

I believe that his reading troubles stem from ocular-motor issues and vision processing issues. We are doing vision therapy now, and in the month that we've been doing this, I've already seen a tremendous improvement. Like many folks with processing issues, ds also has a cluster of processing issues that affect learning. He has SPD and an expressive language processing disorder. He has horrible handwriting. He often can't answer questions about familiar topics or recall certain names. He has trouble spelling. Taken all together, it might seem as though he were "dyslexic," but after seeing half a dozen professionals and extensive testing, it's clear that he really isn't. My dh is dyslexic (tested several times over his life and most recently tested by the same neuropsychologist who tested ds). There are many, many overlapping symptoms, but ds' issues stem from a completely different set of processing issues.

 

I've most recently read about some researchers who are describing dyslexia as a cognitive disorder that affects many levels of organization - visual, language, motor. This is really interesting to me, because ds would fit this definition of dyslexia to a tee. But this isn't a standard definition that is determined by standardized tests, ykim? So currently, we are doing separate therapies for the particular processing issues that we have uncovered — vision therapy, speech and language therapy, and occupational therapy.

 

:iagree::iagree: with all this. Your ds sounds a lot like my dd - lots of processing issues (visual, oral motor, SPD, slow processing speed, great difficulty blending sounds when she was learning to read, etc etc) but no dyslexia. Except my dd has some issue with language processing, which causes trouble with reading comprehension. The chief issue for her at the moment (9 y.o.) is making inferences, both while reading and listening.

[wapiti]

I've never heard of someone with dyslexia being able to learn with a whole language approach. I wouldn't say that phonics is impossible, but it does require a lot of help. But I can't imagine my dc having been able to learn to read the other way, not when she consistently messed up sight words (she always confused "of" and "from" for example). My dd could read from the age of 7 after several years of phonics, with good comprehension, and I thought she was on grade level, only to find out that she was several grades behind. And I am working to expand her vocabulary through lots of reading aloud.

 

I'm honestly confused by your post.

 

I think the theory here goes something like this - dyslexics tend to be right-brained, visual-spatial learners (at least according to Silverman in Upside Down Brilliance), and such persons often struggle with phonics but do better with more emphasis on whole language in the beginning until they're ready to crack the code phonetically, so to speak (not whole language instead of phonics, just more whole language up front in addition to phonics). Or at least that's the thinking. See, e.g., http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/wholes.pdf .

 

ETA: I wanted to add that words like of and from are more difficult sight words, because they are not easy to visualize. The article recommends putting such words into a creative phrase that is easier to visualize.

Edited October 22, 2010 by wapiti

[LizzyBee]

I think the theory here goes something like this - dyslexics tend to be right-brained, visual-spatial learners (at least according to Silverman in Upside Down Brilliance), and such persons often struggle with phonics but do better with more emphasis on whole language in the beginning until they're ready to crack the code phonetically, so to speak (not whole language instead of phonics, just more whole language up front in addition to phonics). Or at least that's the thinking. See, e.g., http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/wholes.pdf .

 

ETA: I wanted to add that words like of and from are more difficult sight words, because they are not easy to visualize. The article recommends putting such words into a creative phrase that is easier to visualize.

 

In Upside Down Brilliance, Silverman differentiates between visual-spatial strengths and dyslexia. Dyslexia is caused by auditory-sequential weaknesses. Some dyslexics have visual-spatial strengths that they can use to compensate for their AS weaknesses, but others do not. Also, some VSL's have no AS weaknesses at all.

[SailorMom]

Yeah - it can be a bit confusing - and it is a bit counter-intuitive....

Anyway, I do think he sounds some words out now (as a 7th grader), but it is not the way you or I would do it.

Here is (at least as well as I am able) to explain his process of reading:

 

When he was first learning, we would shape all his letters and words out of play-doh (over and over), we also used letters made out of sandpaper for the alphabet and learned them out of order. As he memorized the actual shapes of the words by using the playdoh, we started making longer words and word parts (ing, ed, ment, etc). He began to recognize the whole shape of a word - it is harder to mix up a bigger shape than it is to mix up indivudual letters and there is more room for error.

He still occasionally gets words mixed up if they have similar shapes - but he can usually tell by context if he got it wrong now.

 

This certainly won't work for everyone, but we have had spectacular success - the neuropsych was VERY impressed by what he had accomplished.

[peacefully]

.

[RamonaQ]

I think the theory here goes something like this - dyslexics tend to be right-brained, visual-spatial learners (at least according to Silverman in Upside Down Brilliance), and such persons often struggle with phonics but do better with more emphasis on whole language in the beginning until they're ready to crack the code phonetically, so to speak (not whole language instead of phonics, just more whole language up front in addition to phonics). Or at least that's the thinking. See, e.g., http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/wholes.pdf .

 

ETA: I wanted to add that words like of and from are more difficult sight words, because they are not easy to visualize. The article recommends putting such words into a creative phrase that is easier to visualize.

 

This would be our experience. Ds actually shocked his new reading tutor with his fluency and reading....but he reads whole words and by context, and he does read at grade level. In the past year, he has worked very explicitly on phonics, but even then, at the end of the year his neuropysch. testing show incredibly weak (many, many grade levels lower) phonological awareness.

 

Ds knows phonics but it is not second nature. I often say it is like asking someone to do calculus as they are running the 20th mile of a marathon. Not his first thought, and definitely not what his mind is focused to. He CAN do it but phew, it is hard. Ds is 11, maybe this will change with more work on grapheme-phoneme awareness with a tutor who is trained in this (ie-not me).

 

Interestingly, lots of of-for kinds of confusions in the case of ds. Neuropsych thought this was because of lack of concrete image, and bc/ of "word shape" to ds. The reading tutor thinks it is bc/ of lack of precision in reading each word, and being confused by a landscape issue (seeing upcoming words that are really challenging, and skipping over non-context words to begin to work on hard words).

[SailorMom]

I've read a bit of both opinion.... But after talking to the NS, and my own experiences with my DS (who went from being a non-reader in 1st grade to reading at an 8th grade level by 3rd grade) I truly believe phonics should only be used supplementally after the age of 11 or 12.

 

BTW - DS cannot spell, write, or punctuate. But he can read read read! He is now using a voice recognition software and it's working great.

 

Anyway - I think in the narrower meaning of the term, the inability to undersand and decode phenomes is pretty much the core of what reading and spelling dsylexia is. Now - DS has dyspraxia of speech, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia - all of which fall under the dyslexia spectrum of issues - but all quite different in issues.

[onaclairadeluna]

My dyslexic son also learned to read on his own however, I think that the lack of phonetic instruction was not in his best interest. I just didn't know any better. In the second grade he was reading Lord of the Rings but couldn't spell at a first grade level.

 

I did some reading (I recommend Sally Shaywitz's Overcoming Dyslexia) and I decided to tutor him with an Orton Gillingham program. He now reads *and* writes ahead of grade level and he has expressed great gratitude to me for explaining to him what the heck was going on with the English language.

 

Many dyslexics have trouble learning to read but many are able to compensate and figure it out. O-G instruction helps both groups. Early intervention is beneficial but it is never too late.

[Laurie4b]

I wonder if the phonemic decoding score would have been lower if he'd been testing younger, but it's been improved by remediation. Maybe not - I'm just speculating. I didn't have my middle child tested until age 11, and by then, her phonemic decoding scores were great. But based on what I described regarding her early years, both her audiologist and EdPsych recognized that those scores were great because that weakness had already been remediated.

 

OP, you might want to look at http://www.mislabeledchild.com, and see if that information rings true. For years, I didn't think my middle child could have dyslexia because she could read. But when I read about what the Eides call stealth dyslexia, it completely described my dd. I bought the book (The Mislabeled Child), and the dyslexia chapter could have been written about my dd with the single exception that she read within normal parameters, although on the late side of normal. http://Www.visualspatial.com is another good website that might be helpful.

 

Yes--you're absolutely right. If the student has been receiving remediation that targets that, those scores can definitely come up. I didn't think of that when I replied.

[Laurie4b]

My son reads wonderfully - but he learned whole word, because phonics is impossible for dyslexics.... at least as far as I know (this is also what our ns told us). However, there are other dys's out there...

.

 

It is really not at all true that phonics is impossible for dyslexics. The remediation programs with solid research bases all use phonics--but only after working on phonemic awareness.

 

I'm not contradicting what worked for your child, but it's important for other parents of newly dx'd dyslexics to know what to look for in a program.

[HeidiD]

I wonder if the phonemic decoding score would have been lower if he'd been testing younger, but it's been improved by remediation.

 

I suspect so. He had difficulty learning to read, not to the same extent as his brother, who needed LiPS and OG, but we did LOTS of extra phonics workbooks until he was 9.

 

OP, you might want to look at www.mislabeledchild.com, and see if that information rings true. For years, I didn't think my middle child could have dyslexia because she could read. But when I read about what the Eides call stealth dyslexia, it completely described my dd. I bought the book (The Mislabeled Child), and the dyslexia chapter could have been written about my dd with the single exception that she read within normal parameters, although on the late side of normal.

 

 

Yes, I've got that book (love it!) and same experience here - that chapter also describes my son. But I get the impression that "stealth dyslexia" may not be widely accepted as an actual syndrome among neuropsychs and other education professionals. So the residual symptoms are not considered in light of the former big picture. Maybe it exists in such a small population that they don't encounter it frequently enough to recognize it.

 

Www.visualspatial.com is another good website that might be helpful

.

 

Another interesting book. I read it and realized it describes my profile more accurately than those of any of my kids (for which I am grateful, since it's not the most efficient processing style! :tongue_smilie:).

[HeidiD]

I've most recently read about some researchers who are describing dyslexia as a cognitive disorder that affects many levels of organization - visual, language, motor. This is really interesting to me, because ds would fit this definition of dyslexia to a tee. But this isn't a standard definition that is determined by standardized tests, ykim?

 

So they have more of a "spectrum" view of dyslexia, encompassing the various neurological weaknesses that are often present along with the reading difficulties. That might be a good thing, and help avoid a piecemeal, incomplete approach to remediation.

[HeidiD]

I think the theory here goes something like this - dyslexics tend to be right-brained, visual-spatial learners (at least according to Silverman in Upside Down Brilliance), and such persons often struggle with phonics but do better with more emphasis on whole language in the beginning until they're ready to crack the code phonetically, so to speak (not whole language instead of phonics, just more whole language up front in addition to phonics). Or at least that's the thinking. See, e.g., http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/wholes.pdf .

 

ETA: I wanted to add that words like of and from are more difficult sight words, because they are not easy to visualize. The article recommends putting such words into a creative phrase that is easier to visualize.

 

I'm horribly right-brained, VSL, and neither autistic nor dyslexic. I don't remember having trouble learning to read (perhaps because the school I attended used a highly structured, phonics-based program? Who knows). But I'm terrible with details, word recall, etc. and definitely speed read, skipping rapidly along, leaving out unnecessary words (but often with a marker in my hand so I remember the critical details). So now I have at least two kids with neurological deficits (both dyspraxic, and one unquestionably dyslexic and also dx'ed with CAPD, and another still being tested and debated over by dueling experts as we speak:tongue_smilie:). They are both right-brained but visually-spatially deficient. The common denominator is the neurological abnormality in general rather than any particular similarity aside from that. So it seems that the Upside Down Brilliance book is only describing one narrow possible profile among many potential "mixtures".