tjarnold Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 From what I can see of online samples, it appears that The Art of Argument is basically self-directed by the student. The purpose of the teacher's manual appears to be mostly to provide answers to text questions, quizzes, and tests. Can anyone tell me if this impression is correct? I'm looking for a logic/critical thinking program that won't require much involvement on my part. There simply isn't enough time in my day ... Tiffany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildiris Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi, I've been using The Art of Argument with my 8th grader since September. I would not use it as a self-directed text. We discuss the chapters/sections and find samples of the arguments presented in newspapers and magazines. We read the scripted dialogues together and discuss. I would not set the text before a student to go through without some guidance. The answer key/teacher's guide is a tad disappointing. It could provide more background information for the parent/teacher to round out discussions by providing examples. I do like The Art of Argument better than Traditional Logic which I found to be very teacher intensive. Unless you were to find an online class or CD-Rom to teach logic/argument, I think teacher participation is mandatory. How much emphasis you put on the lessons, how many times a week you conduct your class, will determine your involvement. I think the heart of teaching logic and argument is the discussion you have with your student, but this is my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQmom Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi,I've been using The Art of Argument with my 8th grader since September. I would not use it as a self-directed text. We discuss the chapters/sections and find samples of the arguments presented in newspapers and magazines. We read the scripted dialogues together and discuss. I would not set the text before a student to go through without some guidance. The answer key/teacher's guide is a tad disappointing. It could provide more background information for the parent/teacher to round out discussions by providing examples. I do like The Art of Argument better than Traditional Logic which I found to be very teacher intensive. Unless you were to find an online class or CD-Rom to teach logic/argument, I think teacher participation is mandatory. How much emphasis you put on the lessons, how many times a week you conduct your class, will determine your involvement. I think the heart of teaching logic and argument is the discussion you have with your student, but this is my opinion. How much time do you spend on this each week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildiris Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 In the best of all possible worlds, i.e. when our week follows my planned schedule, we do two sessions a week= 2hrs. plus some independent work=1hr. if it applies. Some lessons recommend an essay be written and I do assign the essays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 My children ages 15 (next Friday), 13 and 12 have been flying solo with a discussion every 2 weeks. So far so good. I assume they would get more out of it if I spent more time, but that isn't going to happen, so I'm happy with their progress thusfar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I would not allow my student to use this alone. LFC Art of Argument - who's used it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I would not allow my student to use this alone. LFC Art of Argument - who's used it? Thank you, Sue, for posting this link. I'm crossing Art of Argument off my list for next semester. I'm glad I was forewarned. Shannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjarnold Posted October 22, 2010 Author Share Posted October 22, 2010 Thank you all so much for your thoughts and comments. This discussion has been very helpful, and I think I'll hold off on buying this program. Tiffany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Perrin Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Just so you know, the Art of Argument was thoroughly edited last year and addressed the concerns expressed in the thread dating back to 2008. Best, C. Perrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjarnold Posted October 27, 2010 Author Share Posted October 27, 2010 Just so you know, the Art of Argument was thoroughly edited last year and addressed the concerns expressed in the thread dating back to 2008. Best, C. Perrin Thanks very much for the update on this program. Tiffany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Just so you know, the Art of Argument was thoroughly edited last year and addressed the concerns expressed in the thread dating back to 2008. Best, C. Perrin Then the editing removed the material related to more mature issues in current events? If so, then I may put it back on my list. Does anyone know? Shannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Shot Academy Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Then the editing removed the material related to more mature issues in current events? If so, then I may put it back on my list. Does anyone know? Shannon I have the 2008 version and the only objectionable thing we have come across so far is the story of Jane Roe being raped in a hotel room. I folded the page and taped it shut. The program works just fine w/o that page. My son said he like the Fallacy Detective much better and that they cover the same material. He did FD mostly on his own and we would discuss it once every couple of weeks. He learned a lot from FD, that he applies to his everyday life. With AA we do it together orally because it expects a lot of writing and I think the answers are unclear. The TM is a total disappointment. The best part about the program are all the fake ads using fallacies. The book might be worth having just for that, but I am sure you could hunt and find your own ads. We are an ad free house though, so I wouldn't have access to them other than to buy old magazines from a thrift store. I don't know if I will do AA with my other kids, but we will definitely do Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 That must be why I haven't had those issues. I bought the new edition. We do enjoy the ads. We plan to follow with Fallacy Detective after AoA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanna from CAP Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 (edited) To help with some more details about the new edition: The intention of the rewrite was for several purposes. First to make the entire book as neutral (politically, sociologically, religiously) as possible, or at least to try to be fair to both sides of any given story. Second, to update many examples that have just become too dated for students. Third, to simply provide many more examples of all kinds, using sports, technology, business, and more. To address abortion specifically, there are still a couple places where abortion is discussed, but several others, including the Jane Roe example (which is where rape would also have been mentioned) have been replaced. This new version is now copyright 2010, and is Version 8. Personally, I also think it is a vast improvement, and really appreciate the work that went in to these updates! Hope this helps! ETA: Also, we recommend the book beginning at 7th or 8th grade, so we hope that these issues (which are toned down now anyway) would be appropriate to discuss. Edited October 28, 2010 by Joanna from CAP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Shot Academy Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 I started a new thread about AoA, please chime in! http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2144613#post2144613 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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