TCoO Head on

[pqr]

I think I'm very clear about what I say. No one has ever accused me of being less than forthright no matter how much they might disagree with me.

 

Bill

 

That is simply not true. I have accused you of being less than forthright on several occasions, (including yesterday) generally because you have been. Even if you disagree with the accusations they still stand--so SOME ONE certainly has accused you of being less than forthright.

 

You say

 

"If I had meant to say anyone who uses TCoO is a racist I would have said so. But that IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE."

 

and you said

 

"I'm sorry to doubt motives, but I've come to believe that some homeschool publishers use materials like these because they share the anachronistic values in books like these and seek to perpetuate them in children."

 

In one of these you are less than forthright, which one is it?

[Spy Car]

Thanks, Bill for responding. I imagine you are exhausted from this discussion. I too will take you at your word that you do not believe users of TCoO are racist. And I continue to appreciate your apology and phone call to Mr. Somerville. It's nice to see someone put their money where there mouth is.

 

Thank you!

 

And yes, I am finding this exhausting.

 

To keep a clear conscience, I want to say, although I have found your posts forthcoming, I did easily read into them (in this topic area) assertions about users...assertions that went beyond the book and more toward users. So, just to avoid the drawing out of misunderstanding, I would encourage you to add a wee bit of caution in your posts. I really can easily see how people were offended by your posts, even if they did not fully understand your intent.

 

I'm really doing my best to speak candidly. That is my nature. If I have something to say, I say it. I feel I have been cautious in my posts. When I feel I've crossed lines, either unintentionally or in exercising bad judgement in a moment of anger I offer apologies.

 

But I have never implied or suggested that anyone using or owning TCoO is a racist. In no way do I believe that that is the truth. The book is on a lot of lists. That is why *I* read the book. I was looking for a book I could use with my son down the line, so I thought I'd check it out. That doesn't make me a racist, or anyone else who has read, owned, or used TCoO a racist for having done so.

 

Bill (who is also heading out)

[Spy Car]

That is simply not true. I have accused you of being less than forthright on several occasions, (including yesterday) generally because you have been. Even if you disagree with the accusations they still stand--so SOME ONE certainly has accused you of being less than forthright.

 

You say

 

"If I had meant to say anyone who uses TCoO is a racist I would have said so. But that IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE."

 

I stand corrected. You have accused me, but your accusations (not atypically) misstate the truth.

 

and you said

 

"I'm sorry to doubt motives, but I've come to believe that some homeschool publishers use materials like these because they share the anachronistic values in books like these and seek to perpetuate them in children."

 

In one of these you are less than forthright, which one is it?

 

And, because I saw that those words "crossed a line" (meaning if I were in the position of the publishers of TOG I might reasonably be offended my them) I apologized for any hurt feelings I might have caused.

 

Further, I have made it clear here (and there) that I accept on it on his word when Mr Sommerville tells me he and his family do not condone racism and bigotry in any form, and have been active opponents of such things.

 

Bill

Edited June 23, 2010 by Spy Car

[kalanamak]

Other: will probably never read because I have enough on my plate and my "to read" list. Low priority.

[AuntPol]

WOW, a gazillion pages on a book. Who cares? Isn't the beauty of homeschooling centered around the freedom to choose what we want for our families? If Bill doesn't like TCOO, then he doesn't have to use it. He doesn't have to write notes to the school, have conferences with the teachers, hold protests at school board meetings, try to get on a curriculum committee to have it fixed. He simply doesn't have to use it.

 

If I want to use it because I feel the low cost, great narrative feel, etc. outweigh outdated terminology, I have that freedom. I really don't care if Bill or anyone else thinks I am racist or a bigot or whatever. I know in my heart what I am and God knows what I am. Why does anyone really care what Bill thinks? (Not trying to pick on you Bill but it seems everytime TCOO or one of the Maybury books comes up, you vehemently jump in with your opinion of those books so I think anyone who frequents the boards knows what you think LOL)

 

I found more racism in the history taught at the public school. It was there my children could only read books that had African-American or animal characters, could only do projects on African-Americans, perform African Amerian arts, etc. They were required to stand for the African-American national anthem (but not the national anthem). They did not learn about history other than black history (every year) or Native American History (4th grade state requirement). They were taught that through out history only black people have been slaves. Nobody of any other race has ever been enslaved and only white people have done the enslaving. All inventions, art, music are products of the black race. White people did not contribute anything but misery. Blacks were to be esteemed, whites hated, and all others merely tolerated. It was the most bizarre thing I ever witnessed and if I had not witnessed it, I would never believe it was happening in a school.

 

In our homeschool, we just started using TOG. I did Ambleside before that. Both use TCOO. I found that Ambleside balanced out the stories of Columbus with other selections (Synge I believe?). I have noticed that in TCOO's teacher notes, it says to be on the look out for inappropriate terms for various races and be prepared to discuss this with the children. There are so many selections to read each year (and you cover material 4 times if you use all the way through!) that I think most people will come out with a balanced view. Besides that, homeschoolers seem to fall into two groups -thoe who use a prepackaged Abeka or BJU, or those whose use a variety and supplement, supplement, supplement lol. Those in the first group will never use TCOO. Those in the the latter may or may not, but if they do, you can bet they have about 100 other things they are using too.

 

Sidenote: I also note that those who charge racism, never mention the numerous times that the early white settlers to this country were called shiftless, lazy, wretched, arrogant, unruly, etc or when she calls the Natives friendly or kind. To me (being 3/4 white and 1/4 Native -grandfather full-blooded Cherokee), pale-face is more derogatory than savage. Savage is a technically correct term (Inhabitant of the woods, living in a native state-from latin word Silva), that has fallen out of favor in a similar way that the word retarded has become a politically incorrect term in my lifetime due to the change in connotation from it's usage through time. TCOO was written in 1917 when the term savage was the term used by many antropologists to mean primitives/non-modernized peoples and was used as such even in the sixties when Levi Strauss published Savage Mind. It's not really hard to substitute a more neutral term when reading it aloud. Heck, I had to substitute "main deck" for "poop deck" in Prince Caspian because the term "poop deck" drove my kids crazy.

[Sophia]

 

Heck, I had to substitute "main deck" for "poop deck" in Prince Caspian because the term "poop deck" drove my kids crazy.

 

You are absolutely correct Aunt Pol. Everyone should be able to decide for themselves. I don't think anyone will be disputing that today :001_smile:

 

btw, my little boys are also heavy into bathroom humor.

Mrs.Mungo offered an an excellent response of "Go wet your pants" but if my little boys got a hold of that...:ack2: I'm sticking to the bean dip.

[johnandtinagilbert]

You are absolutely correct Aunt Pol. Everyone should be able to decide for themselves. I don't think anyone will be disputing that today :001_smile:

 

btw, my little boys are also heavy into bathroom humor.

Mrs.Mungo offered an an excellent response of "Go wet your pants" but if my little boys got a hold of that...:ack2: I'm sticking to the bean dip.

:lol:

ah boys and bathroom humor....gotta love it...still can't love it though!