CC Challenge Program

[everlastingstarflower]

I just spent a couple of hours reading all of the threads about the CC Challenge program hoping that someone somewhere had asked the same questions I have and I did get some answers but, I still have some questions. I'd be so very grateful for anyone who would take the time to set me straight.

 

#1. How do the students complete one year of Saxon math in 30 weeks? or do they not complete it, just hit the highlights?

 

#2. Since there's no formal writing instruction after Challenge A, no history in A & B and the science is seen as being "iffy", is there actually time during the rest of the week to supplement these programs at home? I know families who have done Foundations and Essentials and they were having trouble getting their IEW work done from week to week. So I was wondering if it will even be humanly possible to make time for the programs that the CC Challenge program doesn't provide.

 

#3. Some posters commented that the credits being given for the work done is inflated. How do you reconcile the difference?

 

#4. Most posters recommended knowing/seeing the tutor. I was not classicaly educated so how do I know what to look for in a good tutor? I feel totally inadequate to teach logic, the rhetoric and dialectic stages so what I think is o.k. may indeed be sub-standard. This is a learning process for me too!:tongue_smilie:

 

My kids are in Foundations right now but, I am looking toward planning for the future and I'd like to get the skinny on this program so I have some time to contemplate if this is the direction we want to go. Currently, our campus only has the Foundations program but, the director is planning to begin a Challenge program in 2011 because her son will be ready to begin Challenge A at that point.

 

Thanks for the help!

[Chaqar]

:bigear:

[everlastingstarflower]

Hello....anybody out there? Yoo-hoo......

[Woodland_Mom]

I just spent a couple of hours reading all of the threads about the CC Challenge program hoping that someone somewhere had asked the same questions I have and I did get some answers but, I still have some questions. I'd be so very grateful for anyone who would take the time to set me straight.

 

#1. How do the students complete one year of Saxon math in 30 weeks? or do they not complete it, just hit the highlights?

 

All of the Saxon math lessons are covered in class, not just highlights. There are 120 lessons, so students do 4 lessons per week. Parents have the option of using the tests and Investigations with their student at home. Each class period the tutor discusses the 4 lessons that the students are assigned during the week.

 

#2. Since there's no formal writing instruction after Challenge A, no history in A & B and the science is seen as being "iffy", is there actually time during the rest of the week to supplement these programs at home? I know families who have done Foundations and Essentials and they were having trouble getting their IEW work done from week to week. So I was wondering if it will even be humanly possible to make time for the programs that the CC Challenge program doesn't provide.

 

Challenge A students work through all of IEW's Bible Based Writing Lessons. Most Classical Conversations students begin using IEW in 3rd or 4th grade to begin working on the foundations of writing. There is actually lots of writing in the Challenge program! In fact, it's a core part of Challenge. Beginning in Challenge B, students write papers about once a week on the literature they read and on topics encompassing the History of Science. Students brainstorm ideas and outline in class. IEW concepts are used throughout the year, they are just not using one of the theme based books. The same is true for the upper level challenge classes. In Challenge I students write papers on the 20 books they read --mostly American Literature. In Challenge II the literature and writing topics move to British Literature. Lots of writing, again, infusing IEW outlining, brainstorming, dress ups, openers and other concepts throughout the year. The writing pace slows for Challenge III and IV in order to allow students for deeper thought, longer papers and more quality work.

 

IMO, science is definitely not IFFY in Challenge. Here's the scoop:

 

• Challenge A: Natural Science - Students research, sketch and write a report on a topic each week. They present their report in class and take notes. Topics are about plants, animals & human anatomy.

• Challenge B: Same format as Challenge A, but the topics cover evolution, creation, and the history of science

• Challenge I: Apologia Physical Sciencve with full labs

• Challenge II: Apologia Biology with full labs

• Challenge III: Apologia Chemistry with full labs

• Challenge IV: Saxon Physics

 

#3. Some posters commented that the credits being given for the work done is inflated. How do you reconcile the difference?

 

I don't have HS students, so I can't answer this one. Sorry!

 

#4. Most posters recommended knowing/seeing the tutor. I was not classicaly educated so how do I know what to look for in a good tutor? I feel totally inadequate to teach logic, the rhetoric and dialectic stages so what I think is o.k. may indeed be sub-standard. This is a learning process for me too!:tongue_smilie:

 

Look for the things you look for in any teacher/leader: Is the tutor personable/likeable/interesting? Does the person seem organized? How does he/she present material? Is he/she easy to follow/understand when they're explaining things? Most of us are learning right along with our children!! It's okay if you don't seem well versed in logic. :001_smile: You high schooler can do it, so you can learn with them! The tutor is there to partner with you and your child. The tutor will teach/explain the material in class, hopefully leaving the students with the confidence/knowledge they need to complete their assignments at home. If there are questions, the tutor will be there to help. That's part of their role.

 

My kids are in Foundations right now but, I am looking toward planning for the future and I'd like to get the skinny on this program so I have some time to contemplate if this is the direction we want to go. Currently, our campus only has the Foundations program but, the director is planning to begin a Challenge program in 2011 because her son will be ready to begin Challenge A at that point.

 

Challenge is a great program. It is thorough and well rounded. It has many tough courses and prepares students to be responsible, thinking young people and readies them for college. There are some great video links on the website about Challenge that you might find useful. I highly recommend them--or visit a campus--or attend a practicum.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

You have some great questions. Hope this helps! :)

[newlifemom]

Angela gave some great replies. I would like to add a couple of things [putting on Classical Conversations hat] as a Challenge A Director.

 

It is true that you don't see formal history in Challenge A/B. However, history is taught. In Challenge B your student will study, among other things, the history of science. As a history major with a professor who loved that topic, I cannot stress enough how intertwined scientific discovery and social/political history are. In Challenge A, I add quite a bit of history/current events to my geography class. It helps the students to understand how the political borders were created. Plus, your children already have memorized the history timeline and have encountered the history sentences. A tutor can use those as a frame of reference.

 

As for science being iffy, I agree with you . . . if you allow it to be. The first semester of A can be an exercise of how little a person could do and still produce a decent paragraph or two. OR, you as the parent can follow your tutor's lead and assist your child to really spend the week learning all there is to learn about dolphins or butterflies. The amount of information available is staggering. The second semester of A is not that easy. The best way to memorize a system of the body is to understand how is operates and that takes research and time.

 

As for science in B, studying evolution in depth and the history of science is a great way to prepare for high school level science, imo. This allows the student to really understand how much more there is to science than what makes up a cell. Plus, you children have already learned that in Foundations. :D

 

 

I hope this better answers your questions. Challenge isn't for everyone, but it is rigorous and thorough.

 

[Hat off now :tongue_smilie:]

[everlastingstarflower]

Thank you soooo much for taking the time to answer my questions. I really appreciate it. Your answers did spawn a couple of other questions....

 

What sparked this whole deal is that I've been looking at history curriculum for my dd for 5th - 8th grade. I found the VP website and love the look of not only their 2nd - 6th grade program but, also Omnibus. I know that Omnibus would be waaayyy too much for use as a supplement with the Challenge I - IV, but since Challenge A & B don't have history, I was wondering if we could do Omnibus for 7th & 8th grade without causing my dd to end up hating history b/c she loves it now and I don't want to lose that love.

 

Additionally, we live in the "lovely" state of PA :glare:, which is one of five states to have strict hs law that requires more from its hs students when it comes to subjects covered between 7 - 12th grades in order to graduate. There are six areas required by PA that the CC Challenge Program doesn't cover. So, I also have to find a way to squeeze all of those things into our curriculum while trying to balance the at-home work of Challenge. I just want to know if it's a reasonable expectation or if we're going to end up overwhelmed. Foundations is so different from Challenge in the work-load area and I'd just like to know what to expect.

 

On the CC website, Leigh Bortins said that it's important for the students to attend the Math portion even if you don't use Saxon at home because there is dialog about how math is influenced by other areas of study. We do use Saxon at home but, from your description (which maybe I'm misunderstanding) it's more of just going over the assignments. So, it seems that it would be good if the parent can't explain the lessons to their children but, maybe not so much for someone who doesn't have trouble with Algebra?

 

As far as the writing goes, we're planning to enroll in Essentials year after next and I believe that IEW is a great program that will serve my children well. It sounds as if they'll be doing quite a bit of writing in Challenge so even though there's no "formal" program, am I understanding that they will still be given instruction in HOW to write in different styles? One critique I read indicated the IEW is a good program to learn to write technically but, not necessarily creatively. My dd loves writing and I'd hate for her to decide she wants to major in writing after we've already crossed the point of no return for being able to give her hs work/credit in it. KWIM?

 

All this because I was looking into a long-term solution for my dd's history program. What a wild ride! I've read so many posts my head hurts. :svengo:Thanks again for answering my inquiry. I REALLY appreciate it! :D

[newlifemom]

PM'ing you.

[Karis]

Thank you soooo much for taking the time to answer my questions. I really appreciate it. Your answers did spawn a couple of other questions....

 

What sparked this whole deal is that I've been looking at history curriculum for my dd for 5th - 8th grade. I found the VP website and love the look of not only their 2nd - 6th grade program but, also Omnibus. I know that Omnibus would be waaayyy too much for use as a supplement with the Challenge I - IV, but since Challenge A & B don't have history, I was wondering if we could do Omnibus for 7th & 8th grade without causing my dd to end up hating history b/c she loves it now and I don't want to lose that love.

 

Additionally, we live in the "lovely" state of PA :glare:, which is one of five states to have strict hs law that requires more from its hs students when it comes to subjects covered between 7 - 12th grades in order to graduate. There are six areas required by PA that the CC Challenge Program doesn't cover. So, I also have to find a way to squeeze all of those things into our curriculum while trying to balance the at-home work of Challenge. I just want to know if it's a reasonable expectation or if we're going to end up overwhelmed. Foundations is so different from Challenge in the work-load area and I'd just like to know what to expect.

 

On the CC website, Leigh Bortins said that it's important for the students to attend the Math portion even if you don't use Saxon at home because there is dialog about how math is influenced by other areas of study. We do use Saxon at home but, from your description (which maybe I'm misunderstanding) it's more of just going over the assignments. So, it seems that it would be good if the parent can't explain the lessons to their children but, maybe not so much for someone who doesn't have trouble with Algebra?

 

As far as the writing goes, we're planning to enroll in Essentials year after next and I believe that IEW is a great program that will serve my children well. It sounds as if they'll be doing quite a bit of writing in Challenge so even though there's no "formal" program, am I understanding that they will still be given instruction in HOW to write in different styles? One critique I read indicated the IEW is a good program to learn to write technically but, not necessarily creatively. My dd loves writing and I'd hate for her to decide she wants to major in writing after we've already crossed the point of no return for being able to give her hs work/credit in it. KWIM?

 

All this because I was looking into a long-term solution for my dd's history program. What a wild ride! I've read so many posts my head hurts. :svengo:Thanks again for answering my inquiry. I REALLY appreciate it! :D

 

 

What are the 6 areas for PA that CC doesn't cover?

[angela in ohio]

I tutored Challenge A this past year to a class of 12 students, including two of my own. We are not returning next year.

 

#1. It depends on the tutor and the needs of the class. I taught every lesson this past year, as that was what my students needed. If they were more advnaced in math, we would have spent more time going deeper, discussing, etc. in math. it isn't hard to teach a Saxon lesson in 15 minutes, trust me. :001_smile: But you have to plan ahead and know your material (that's where checking out the tutor comes in.)

 

#2. There is writing in the upper Challenge levels. They write a lot more than many students who are homeschooled. ;) The science is Apologia, so it depends on how you feel about that program. The lack of history was a problem for us (there is a bit, and many of the novels are historical fiction.) Ideally, students coming into Challenge A would have memorized the timeline cards and learned history facts for Foundations. I still wanted more history. We did find plenty of time to supplement at home, even for my dd who was technically too young. I made the class as rigorous as possible for the top students I had, but it is still lighter than what we would normally do.

 

#3. I haven't looked at that, but if it came from the high school board here, I would believe it. Those ladies are sharp! :D

 

#4. You will be able to tell if the tutor knows the material and can engage the students. If she is reading her lessons to them and not engaging them or looking at them, you have a problem. If she can't take a random comment and run with it, getting the students into a discussion that leads deeper into the material, I would look elsewhere. You will be able to see it in action. Watch to make sure that they are asking questions and aren't spoon feeding the students. Make sure that the games are age appropriate and not childish. A lot of people have trouble making the leap up from elementary students, and you don't want your dc stuck in a class like that. They won't grow.

 

Also, ask questions to see if she (he) understands the role of a Challenge tutor (they are the tutor, not the teacher, and they don't usurp the parent.) Ask how much experience they have with teaching writing and IEW specifically and ask about their Latin background. Those are the two areas that require the most experience to do a good job. Ask how much experience they have in classical education: what books have they read, who do they listen to? Ask how they understand the needs of Challenge students to be different than younger students. If they can't answer that, the class may end up being an elementary school room, and that isn't appropriate for junior hgh students. She should have carefully planned out lessons; ask to see them.

 

The tutor gets very little training and little guidance. The quality will really, really, really depend on the tutor. Ask a lot of questions and spend a whole day watching.

Edited June 9, 2010 by angela in ohio

[everlastingstarflower]

What are the 6 areas for PA that CC doesn't cover?

 

PA History, Health, Music, Art, Physical Education and yearly Safety Education including fire safety are the six additional categories that must be taught between 7th and 12th grades that are not covered by CC. I wouldn't expect CC Challenge to cover any of those subjects, especially PA History but, I needed to know if I'd have time to devote to meeting the state's requirements and participate in Challenge if we wanted to.

 

As far as I'm concerned PA History doesn't need an entire year's worth of effort. Much of what we will be learning it American History will have elements of PA's history in it anyway. But we have to do enough to satisfy our school district's standard. (Whatever that is.)

 

It would be nice to find a way for Music and Art to be intertwined with history but, that's probably just a pipe dream. Although if the kids are reading Francis Schaeffer's "How Shall We Then Live", I know that those things will be covered at least once in that series.

[everlastingstarflower]

I tutored Challenge A this past year to a class of 12 students, including two of my own. We are not returning next year.

 

#1. It depends on the tutor and the needs of the class. I taught every lesson this past year, as that was what my students needed. If they were more advnaced in math, we would have spent more time going deeper, discussing, etc. in math. it isn't hard to teach a Saxon lesson in 15 minutes, trust me. :001_smile: But you have to plan ahead and know your material (that's where checking out the tutor comes in.) We've been doing Saxon so I know what you mean about teaching a lesson in 15 mins. My dd is reading her own lessons (I think she gets more out of it by reading it herself.) and today we did the Warm up section and the Lesson in 15 mins. My ds keeps asking "Is that all there is? May we do another lesson?" So I think I could at least be able to tell if the tutor wasn't adding any more than what we do at home. If I walk away saying, "I could have done THAT." I know that maybe the tutor isn't so great.

 

#2. There is writing in the upper Challenge levels. They write a lot more than many students who are homeschooled. ;) The science is Apologia, so it depends on how you feel about that program. I am not that familiar with Apologia. I guess I'll have to get an opinon on it before we commit to the program. The lack of history was a problem for us (there is a bit, and many of the novels are historical fiction.) Ideally, students coming into Challenge A would have memorized the timeline cards and learned history facts for Foundations. We're doing that now. :-)I still wanted more history. We did find plenty of time to supplement at home, even for my dd who was technically too young. I made the class as rigorous as possible for the top students I had, but it is still lighter than what we would normally do. Glad to hear that you had plenty of supplementation time. I'm thinking about doing Omnibus and it just hit me....we hs year-round. I'm sure that even if it's too heavy to do Omnibus with Challenge, we could do Omnibus during the rest of our year and on the off weeks.

 

#3. I haven't looked at that, but if it came from the high school board here, I would believe it. Those ladies are sharp! :D This is some area of concern for me but, if we're doing supplementary work at home, then I guess it won't be much of an issue.

 

#4. You will be able to tell if the tutor knows the material and can engage the students. If she is reading her lessons to them and not engaging them or looking at them, you have a problem. If she can't take a random comment and run with it, getting the students into a discussion that leads deeper into the material, I would look elsewhere. You will be able to see it in action. Watch to make sure that they are asking questions and aren't spoon feeding the students. Make sure that the games are age appropriate and not childish. A lot of people have trouble making the leap up from elementary students, and you don't want your dc stuck in a class like that. They won't grow.

 

Also, ask questions to see if she (he) understands the role of a Challenge tutor (they are the tutor, not the teacher, and they don't usurp the parent.) Ask how much experience they have with teaching writing and IEW specifically and ask about their Latin background. About Latin, my dc are going to be way ahead of the Latin that is offered. We've already completed Prima Latina and will have finished Latina Christana I & II and be moved onto something more challenging by the time we're ready for Challenge. I'd really like for them to do Latin in the Christian Trivium in hs. But I do understand your point about having a good Latin background from a writing perspective, too. Those are the two areas that require the most experience to do a good job. Ask how much experience they have in classical education: what books have they read, who do they listen to? Ask how they understand the needs of Challenge students to be different than younger students. If they can't answer that, the class may end up being an elementary school room, and that isn't appropriate for junior hgh students. She should have carefully planned out lessons; ask to see them. Our Foundations director is very good and she has been homeschooling for 5 or 6 years. Her oldest will be ready for the Challenge Program in another year and she is considering finding a new Foundations director so that she can direct the Challenge Program. At this point, only one other student in our group will be ready for Challenge at the same time but, we may have more families added to our group by that time too.

 

The tutor gets very little training and little guidance. The quality will really, really, really depend on the tutor. Ask a lot of questions and spend a whole day watching.

I will definitely do that. I don't want to spend the amount of money on Challenge that is required only to find that it doesn't fill the need that we have. I need the example of Challenge to help me teach rhetoric and dialectic at home, too. So if I can't learn by example then it won't be much help to either my dc or me. I know that there are other resources I can tap into to help me teach in those stages but, I'd also like to see it lived out, too. KWIM? Thanks for your help and input!

[angela in ohio]

I will definitely do that. I don't want to spend the amount of money on Challenge that is required only to find that it doesn't fill the need that we have. I need the example of Challenge to help me teach rhetoric and dialectic at home, too. So if I can't learn by example then it won't be much help to either my dc or me. I know that there are other resources I can tap into to help me teach in those stages but, I'd also like to see it lived out, too. KWIM? Thanks for your help and input!

 

That's what it comes down to. If you are going to be modeling those things for the parents, you have to know them. :001_smile: That's where the tutor's (1.) experience and (2.) view of education come in.

 

Hit the high school boards here and check out posts about Apologia. Many like it, but some don't, and I personally wanted something different. I'd say 80% of the homeschoolers I know IRL are using it, though.

 

As a side note, I have taught LitCT in co-op classes, and I am not impressed. I have taught many programs (I usually have to teach what the parents/directors want,) and I disliked it more than most. I would love to copy edit it for them, as there are many mistakes/typos. I can't imagine teaching it without knowing Latin, considering the errors. I think the Henle in Challenge I-IV would be far better, provided the tutor knows Latin and how to teach it. The Latin in Challenge A and B (LNST) isn't great, either, but I know there are plans to switch that soon.

[everlastingstarflower]

As a side note, I have taught LitCT in co-op classes, and I am not impressed. I have taught many programs (I usually have to teach what the parents/directors want,) and I disliked it more than most. I would love to copy edit it for them, as there are many mistakes/typos. I can't imagine teaching it without knowing Latin, considering the errors. I think the Henle in Challenge I-IV would be far better, provided the tutor knows Latin and how to teach it. The Latin in Challenge A and B (LNST) isn't great, either, but I know there are plans to switch that soon.

 

Thanks for sharing about LitCT. It looked like such a promising program when I first looked at it on-line. I have read lots of good reviews about Henle so I'll look into it. I had Latin for 3 years in jr./hs and loved it but, I had a superb teacher. I'm trying to pass that love of Latin on to my dc. The Challenge tutor would have to be very good with Henle for me to be impressed b/c I'll always be comparing their abilities with my exceptional Latin teacher. We would definitely be opting out of LNST if they're still using it by the time we get there. My dc would be bored b/c they'd already know the material. Hopefully, they'll switch to something more substantial, although if the CC higher-ups are expecting students to be able to do a more weighty Latin, they'll have to make sure that the enrolling parents know that the Foundations Latin memory work won't prepare their students for the more challenging curriculum.

[angela in ohio]

although if the CC higher-ups are expecting students to be able to do a more weighty Latin, they'll have to make sure that the enrolling parents know that the Foundations Latin memory work won't prepare their students for the more challenging curriculum.

 

Actually, if all my students had come in knowing the conjugations and declensions, it would have been a huge help. That was what they spent the biggest part of their first year on. I think a student coming into Henle with nothing but those two things down solid will be better prepared than students who did lower level Latin programs, but never memorized the conjugation/declensions entirely.

 

If you know Latin, you could probably use LitCT, if you were willing to tweak it a bit here and there. I still think Henle is better for high school though. :001_smile:

[NCMom]

I just spent a couple of hours reading all of the threads about the CC Challenge program hoping that someone somewhere had asked the same questions I have and I did get some answers but, I still have some questions. I'd be so very grateful for anyone who would take the time to set me straight.

 

#1. How do the students complete one year of Saxon math in 30 weeks? or do they not complete it, just hit the highlights?

 

You do some lessons on the weeks off between the two terms to fit them all in. All lessons do get completed.

 

#2. Since there's no formal writing instruction after Challenge A, no history in A & B and the science is seen as being "iffy", is there actually time during the rest of the week to supplement these programs at home? I know families who have done Foundations and Essentials and they were having trouble getting their IEW work done from week to week. So I was wondering if it will even be humanly possible to make time for the programs that the CC Challenge program doesn't provide.

 

I don't think the science is iffy in the upper challenges, though there are more rigorous programs. I do not like the Phys Sci which imho is not 9th grade work. The science in A/B/I was not adequate for us at all as the purpose of this seminar is NOT to teach science. So we supplemented.

We also supplemented elsewhere in Ch A and B but there was not enough time in Ch I. If I had committed in enough time, I would have had mine read the lit books ahead of time as this was the greatest time suck. Plus I had 2 in two separate programs and was tutoring. It was not the best, lol. YOU are the teacher though and can do whatever you want to! If you decide to do it, I suggest getting your guide as early as possible and planning to make the program work for you. Remain the primary teacher and work the program. Our Challenges aren't very effective because our parents just hope the child is following the guide and that is pretty much it.

 

#3. Some posters commented that the credits being given for the work done is inflated. How do you reconcile the difference?

 

Add more stuff in during the 6 weeks you are not in CC, supplement, etc.

 

#4. Most posters recommended knowing/seeing the tutor. I was not classicaly educated so how do I know what to look for in a good tutor? I feel totally inadequate to teach logic, the rhetoric and dialectic stages so what I think is o.k. may indeed be sub-standard. This is a learning process for me too!:tongue_smilie:

 

Ask other parents about last year...I would say also look at the kids in the class; this is important.

My kids are in Foundations right now but, I am looking toward planning for the future and I'd like to get the skinny on this program so I have some time to contemplate if this is the direction we want to go. Currently, our campus only has the Foundations program but, the director is planning to begin a Challenge program in 2011 because her son will be ready to begin Challenge A at that point.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

hth,

Georgia - who has had kids do Found/Essentials, Ch A, Ch B and Ch I, which I tutored.

[hsmomto5]

We use this throughout hs and it is wonderful. My daughter just finished her first yerar in college. She is a biology major and has done very well in all of herchemsitry and biology classes. She told me she felt very prepared and many of her classmatyes did not feel the same.

Lora in NC

[G5052]

You've gotten a lot of good feedback.

 

We actually have three campuses closer to us, but drove further to a fourth this last year because I really wanted a particular Challenge tutor and our previous campus didn't have a Foundations Director when we decided to change. It was the right choice for us, and we plan to stay at that campus as long as the quality continues.

 

We didn't have time for a lot of extras because the Challenge A Director taught a very rich class and assigned additional work that was very appropriate and well done. The Challenge program is really just an outline, so the creativity and background of the Director is a big deal. I did schedule in several novel studies in the fall because he had done four years of IEW (two with me and two with Essentials) and the Bible-Based writing was easy for him. In the spring, he was very busy reading a novel each week with work to be turned in to prepare him for writing, and then the next week he wrote an essay on the book. His work took from about 8:30-4:30 or later every day, but he loved it.

[everlastingstarflower]

Thank you to all who have responded to my post and for the PM's I've received. I have a more thorough understanding as to the scope and purpose of Challenge that I didn't have before. I think all of your responses will help me make a much more informed decision. Thanks so much!

[newlifemom]

Thank you to all who have responded to my post and for the PM's I've received. I have a more thorough understanding as to the scope and purpose of Challenge that I didn't have before. I think all of your responses will help me make a much more informed decision. Thanks so much!

 

How's that phrase go? "Knowing is half the battle" :D