Utterly disrespectful kids in public, what do you do?

[creekland]

For what it's worth, I have a son who we've never had to spank nor raise our voice to. People pleasing is in his genes, so simply knowing he has disappointed someone (anyone) makes him feel awful. He's the model son to have had and I feel blessed, but, there's also a good chance if he gets in the wrong crowd that he will be a follower there too as that's his nature. He wants to fit in and please. It's kind of scary in that aspect.

 

Then I have two more "normal" boys that would have grown up self-centered and bossy had we let them. They were natural "in charge" kids. Now that they have been well-socialized and know their "place" in society (world DOESN'T revolve around them) they are sought after as leaders in their clubs and the oldest is winning nice leadership scholarships to college. They defer when it's needed and lead when it's needed. They've learned proper social behavior to live well in society (and proper behavior varies at times).

 

I think many of the people that advocate no spanking/punishment as "the" answer mainly have contact with the former. It often works for them. Chances are their kids could easily be that way as I feel a big part is genetic. When they have the latter type it tends to turn out as another poster stated with self-centered teens who do as they please whenever they please.

 

The key is to raise the child the way that works for the child in order to have them be a pleasant member of society.

 

In this youngster's case, the parents either aren't doing enough or what they are doing isn't working. Since his offense (spitting on others in public) is highly offensive, yes, something needs to be done. The parents obviously aren't/weren't doing it. If they had been correcting junior, no action would have been needed by others.

 

If no action is done and junior is allowed to continue and age, life could get dangerous - to him or those he comes in contact with. Just talking sweetly to him about it is unlikely to have any effect in my experience. Kids at school who fit his category laugh and make fun of adults who use that method and rather enjoy irking them. Classes with teachers that are like this tend to be horrid behavior-wise.

 

Kids respect those (and act accordingly) to those that demand it - and spanking is not necessary, but what is called "shaming" here generally is quite effective in both behavior changing and respect producing. Kids DO learn from it - in a positive peer pressure sort of way. They may not change their internal thoughts (still dislike English or whatever), but they definitely learn how to behave in society (don't disrupt the class simply because YOU don't like something).

 

Again, we're not talking habits (biting nails, etc). Shaming does nothing about that. We're talking about spontaneous behaviors - seeing what one can get away with - such as spitting on others. That's an easily changed behavior IF someone will do something about it.

[lionfamily1999]

This makes very little sense to me. My job as a parent, and someone who loves/cares for all children, is to model appropriate behavior. Shame will not teach. Sense cannot be knocked into someone. Violence does not educate.

It depends on the situation, but ime, violence always educates. Should you get jumped for looking a particular way, in addition to the bumps/bruises/blood you also walk away having learned something. If you get shamed in public, you'll learn something. If you cross the wrong street and get mugged, you learn something. While the "lesson" may not be one that parents want their children to learn, and it could even be completely wrong, it's still there and learned.

On the contrary, the child is already completely self-centered and without conscience. Shaming him won't likely suddenly infuse him with remorse, I agree, but others will look at you with gratitude for standing up to the bully. Because that is exactly what he is...a bully who is testing to see how far he can go before he's called out. It's a game.

 

Barb

Dh and I saw something the other night (I'll have to ask him what it was called when he gets home) that was talking about humans starting life as sociopaths and learning how to be otherwise.

 

Someone else said that shame makes the child see the world as revolving around them, but another poster noted that shame comes from others. Concern for being shamed means a fear of how others may percieve you. It might be self-concious, but it's not self-centered.

[Orthodox6]

From an earlier post: "Violence does not educate."

 

Then for mercy's sake, somebody had better inform the ignoramus child from the original incident of this fact.

[calandalsmom]

1. Most of us who believe in consequences and the occasional raised voice or swat on the butt didn't start out that way - we, too, had rosy ideas of how a truly loved and guided child would simply learn to behave themselves. Then we got sick of dealing with the consequences of our inaction. Or our children got banned from the local playgroup. And we smartened up. Our children shouldn't suffer because we're too spineless to call them on it when they misbehave.

 

2. I've known many parents who never used a raised voice or a consequence which might imply shame. Lots of them were/are my friends. Several of those "gently raised" kids started drinking at 13, selling drugs at 14 and having sex at 14 (because heaven knows we shouldn't tell kids not to have sex, should we? That implies sex is shameful!) Some got kicked out of school. One still solves every problem with her mother by screaming until she gets her way.

 

I am very thankful we moved away from that group of people five years ago. I still love those parents very much and it would have been extremely awkward when I had to insist our children no longer spend any time together. Every one of them still doesn't understand how their children turned out this way....and why mine didn't.

 

3. The number one thing that bugs me about the "no raised voice" crowd is how it puts a child on a pedestal above all adults...above all other human beings. Why is a child more important than an adult? Why is your child's right to be obnoxious more important than my right to have peace, quiet or safety? Why is your child's feelings more important than MY feelings?

 

Because if I get spit on, it hurts my feelings.

 

Where oh where did the common sense go in this world? You don't have to beat a kid - just tell him or her to stop it! How on earth is that detrimental?

 

I agree with your call for common sense. I do not agree that gentle parenting leads to what you describe in the bolded portion of your post above. In fact I suspect there are greater issues there than parenting style.

 

I am not able to comply with the "no raised voice" bit myself. I dont think tho that how I parent my kids has anything to do with what the OP describes. Nor do i think its always appropriate to loudly confront and denigrate a parent or her child about their behavior in public.

[Purpledaizy]

I guess my base view on shame as a method of changing behavior is that it typically doesn't correct behavior. The child doesn't care that you have publicy pronounced their behavior is disgusting. He knows its disgusting, that's why he's doing it. It is more likely that he/she is now scared they may receive punishment now that light has been shed their behavior. Unless swift, real-life consequences follow, shame is a vague empty threat.

[Purpledaizy]

From an earlier post: "Violence does not educate."

 

Then for mercy's sake, somebody had better inform the ignoramus child from the original incident of this fact.

 

:lol: yes

[simka2]

I think we have a couple different definitions of "shame" being used here. ;)

 

I think there is a type of shame, which is more "guilt" over bad behavior. That is a good thing, I want my kids to have a healthy concience.

 

But then there is the shame that drives the true self into hiding, and that is the type I can not abide!!!!

 

There is natural consequence..."Ma'am, I will call security if I see your child spit on a person one more time." Then it's the parents responsibilty to deal with (which it was along.)

 

I've seen children from all camps rebel...strict parents, leniant ones, religous and secular.

[Penelope]

In all seriousness, this is a kid who is not likely to live a long life. Some of you are offended at the OP's choice of words; but when this kid is a teenager, if he spits on the wrong person, he's going to get knocked up side the head. Or knifed.

 

I think this is quite a stretch. The OP was vague. We don't even know how old the child is. And a 5 year old that spits doesn't necessarily become a teen that spits.

[lionfamily1999]

I guess my base view on shame as a method of changing behavior is that it typically doesn't correct behavior. The child doesn't care that you have publicy pronounced their behavior is disgusting. He knows its disgusting, that's why he's doing it. It is more likely that he/she is now scared they may receive punishment now that light has been shed their behavior. Unless swift, real-life consequences follow, shame is a vague empty threat.

Public shame from a stranger may only temporarily alter behavior, but that depends on the parents. The real life consequences that result are most likely there, even if the parents are passive/submissive. The parents are now angry and that will have an immediate impact. Tempers will be shorter and there's enough embarrassment to go around. So, there are real real-life consequences and they're pretty instant. There is also the fear of a loss of mutual respect. That more applies to older kids. It's the fear of a peer losing respect for them that would bring the changes home.

 

If I spit on people they become angry. They yell and my parents become angry. The rest of the day my parents are short-tempered.

 

If I spit on someone they'll think I'm disgusting. They will tell others I am disgusting and then everyone will think I'm disgusting.

[Mejane]

I think this is quite a stretch. The OP was vague. We don't even know how old the child is. And a 5 year old that spits doesn't necessarily become a teen that spits.

 

Not too much of a stretch if you watch the news. Spitting now could morph into something equally as socially unacceptable later if not curtailed.

 

Perhaps we should look at saying something as being in service to the boy - something said firmly but with kindness, as others have suggested.

[simka2]

What about the fact that this kid has reached the point where any attention...even neg. attention...is being sought.

 

Yes, it's rude and disgusting, but what leads a child there?

What going on in his heart?

 

I feel really bad for him...and his parents. What leads people down that path?

 

And if we want to...how do we help them?

[Purpledaizy]

Public shame from a stranger may only temporarily alter behavior, but that depends on the parents. The real life consequences that result are most likely there, even if the parents are passive/submissive. The parents are now angry and that will have an immediate impact. Tempers will be shorter and there's enough embarrassment to go around. So, there are real real-life consequences and they're pretty instant. There is also the fear of a loss of mutual respect. That more applies to older kids. It's the fear of a peer losing respect for them that would bring the changes home.

 

If I spit on people they become angry. They yell and my parents become angry. The rest of the day my parents are short-tempered.

 

If I spit on someone they'll think I'm disgusting. They will tell others I am disgusting and then everyone will think I'm disgusting.

 

Circling back to my earlier argument "If I spit on people they become angry," I believe this is the response the child is trying to evoke. Its negative attention seeking.

 

And again, If I spit on someone they'll think I'm disgusting. The child is trying to be disgusting. Its the mechanism he/she is using to get attention.

 

Attention seeking behavior that has escalated to this level isn't affected by embarrassing them. I'm quite certain at this level of misbehavior, the parents being in a bad mood/fed up at home is pretty much par for the course.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Purpledaizy
clarification

[AuntPol]

Just talking sweetly to him about it is unlikely to have any effect in my experience. Kids at school who fit his category laugh and make fun of adults who use that method and rather enjoy irking them. Classes with teachers that are like this tend to be horrid behavior-wise.

 

Kids respect those (and act accordingly) to those that demand it - and spanking is not necessary, but what is called "shaming" here generally is quite effective in both behavior changing and respect producing. Kids DO learn from it - in a positive peer pressure sort of way. They may not change their internal thoughts (still dislike English or whatever), but they definitely learn how to behave in society (don't disrupt the class simply because YOU don't like something).

 

 

 

We spent 5 years in an inner city school -one that was high free and reduced lunch and mostly unparented kids. By third grade, these kids were hard as most criminals. You could tell them in the nicest, politest, most respectful, huggy-feely way you could possibly imagine and it would have ZERO impact. Hence, the school could not keep teachers for grades 3 and up.

[Purpledaizy]

What about the fact that this kid has reached the point where any attention...even neg. attention...is being sought.

 

Yes, it's rude and disgusting, but what leads a child there?

What going on in his heart?

 

I feel really bad for him...and his parents. What leads people down that path?

 

And if we want to...how do we help them?

 

I think in these instances, I think there is very little we can do other than make a stand by showing displeasure and trying to offer a sensible consequence.

 

IMO, utterly ridiculous behavior shouldn't recieve anymore than a statement of consequence. A crisp "do it again and you can explain yourself to security," coupled with an evil glare. Kids who act like this do it for attention. I won't give it to them.

 

I heartily agree with the other posters here that the behavior should be addressed, if only to be an example to other children of what will happen if you dothis. Whether or not it is beneficial to the offender is debatable.

 

I also get the feeling that some posters here see my refusal to engage the offender by trying to embarass or shame him, as a weak. That perhaps I refrain from the behavior because I feel it may in some way emotionally harm or damage the spitter. That couldn't be less true. I simply won't get dragged in to another family's drama or get my blood pressure worked using a method I think isn't effective. I think all that needs to be stated is a consequence if X then Y.

[lionfamily1999]

Circling back to my earlier argument "If I spit on people they become angry," I believe this is the response the child is trying to evoke. Its negative attention seeking.

 

And again, If I spit on someone they'll think I'm disgusting. The child is trying to be disgusting. Its the mechanism he/she is using to get attention.

 

Attention seeking behavior that has escalated to this level isn't affected by embarrassing them. I'm quite certain at this level of misbehavior, the parents being in a bad mood/fed up at home is pretty much par for the course.

Sure, they're looking for attention, but that doesn't mean that you should ignore what they're doing. Ignoring it means it gets worse until someone DOES pay attention. My point was that there are consequences, even if their parents aren't implementing any sort of designed consequences.

 

We've discussed with ds how his attitude effects those around him and that he should try to be positive and friendly, because that makes the people around more likely to be positive and friendly. The consequence of behaving otherwise is that the people around him will do the same. Granted, this kid may not have someone to explain this to him, in that case he will have to figure it out.

 

As to the "disgusting" comment, I meant that more towards older kids who are concerned with how they're percieved by those around them. While I do remember some really gross guys in high school, they were the exception, they found their glory by turning stomachs. All the same, in general older children and adults understand that their behavior reflects upon themselves. People will treat them according to their behavior and the standards they've set for themselves.

 

Those things don't change with parenting fancies, that's the way it is. These "attention seekers" will continue to be so as adults until the dim bulb goes off over their heads and they figure it all out. It's hard and painful, but it's life. Adults rarely take issue with shaming adults who are behaving in a shameful manner. Kids, especially those left to face the world on their own, will have to learn this lesson.

 

It's too bad his parents don't care, but that doesn't mean that the person getting spit on needs to stop her day and attempt to convince this child in a gentle and loving manner that spitting is not nice. As an adult the child will have to face people that might decide that a simple "gross" coupled with some blowing off of steam will be enough. He could lose some teeth, or his freedom, or his life over it. Better to be screamed at today and maybe learn a lesson than ignored and beaten to a pulp tomorrow.

 

Oh, and as for par for the course... The most ineffective parents I know are striving to provide a worry free home for their children by........ well....... doing nothing. Their kids run wild and the parents imagine they're protecting them from the roughness of the world... until some ticked off chick at the mall screams them back to reality.

[lionfamily1999]

I heartily agree with the other posters here that the behavior should be addressed, if only to be an example to other children of what will happen if you dothis. Whether or not it is beneficial to the offender is debatable.

 

I also get the feeling that some posters here see my refusal to engage the offender by trying to embarass or shame him, as a weak. That perhaps I refrain from the behavior because I feel it may in some way emotionally harm or damage the spitter. That couldn't be less true. I simply won't get dragged in to another family's drama or get my blood pressure worked using a method I think isn't effective. I think all that needs to be stated is a consequence if X then Y.

Not at all. I'm just trying to defend the merits of the alternative.