Daisy Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 This post just rocked my little world. I'm not a technological person and tend to avoid technology most of the time. My children do not play on the computer. We read books, real books. We use our library system and not just for the computers. We go for bike rides and dig in the garden. We are what most of the next generation would term as "old-fashioned." Is the thinking in this post common? http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2008/pulpit_20080321_004574.html Here is the beginning of it.... There is a technology war coming. Actually it is already here but most of us haven't yet notice. It is a war not about technology but because of technology, a war over how we as a culture embrace technology. It is a war that threatens venerable institutions and, to a certain extent, threatens what many people think of as their very way of life. It is a war that will ultimately and inevitably change us all, no going back. The early battles are being fought in our schools. And I already know who the winners will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in MO Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 I'm already outdated! I know my kids can do things with computers and cell phones that I can't. It almost sounds like the writer believes education itself is being rewritten completely, and he/she may be right. Wasn't it Bill Gates who said that high school was "irrelevant"? I know our local h.s. no longer has "honors" or "college prep" classes, like schools did when I was in high school, but the juniors and seniors who are capable take community college classes for college credit. Either our high schools are dumbed down so far that they have to reach to the community colleges for help, or else our kids are doing so great that they're beyond the presently offered curriculum. It was an interesting article---and I honestly think I'll have to read it again to make sure I understood it correctly! Thanks for sharing, Daisy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Dave Winer, back in 1996, came to the conclusion that it was better to bookmark information than to cut and paste it. I'm sure today Dave wouldn't bother with the bookmark and would simply search from scratch to get the most relevant result. Both men point to the idea that we're moving from a knowledge economy to a search economy, from a kingdom of static values to those that are dynamic. Education still seems to define knowing as more important than being able to find, yet which do you do more of in your work? And what's wrong with crimping a paragraph here or there from Cringely if it shows you understand the topic? So does this mean the idea of original thought is dead? All knowledge has been shared. All future learning will simply be gleaned from "searching" through another's thoughts and ideas. I'm hating this article more and more. I thought the idea behind education was learning how to "think". I realize that particular concept has been long dead in most institutions of learning. I guess it isn't such a huge leap from education defined as regurgitation of facts to education defined as the ability to quickly search and locate facts. Neither is what I'm after for my children. Uugh. He does make some very interesting points though and even mentions homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choirfarm Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I couldn't sleep one night and watched a special on PBS and it was about technology and high schooler, I think. I was completely floored when I watched it. It was SO incredibly scary. First of all, a lot of the students didn't ever read a book. They just used Sparknotes or other online summary information. The students submitted their papers online and then the teachers submitted them to some site that checked for plagerism from some massive database. All of these students had facebook pages and spent tons of time on the internet. The parents didn't have their password:confused:. I'm sorry, but either you give me the password or you cannot get on!!!! The whole cell phone thing was amazing as well; although I see that a lot where I am as well. Teenagers cannot function without a cell phone in their hands. One thing that made me really scary is how I am going to send my children to college. Somehow I have to expose them to some of these things in a controlled environment so that I can help guide them before they leave for college in a techie world that they have no experience in. Does that make sense? Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakmom Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Here's a link to a Frontline show about this... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/kidsonline/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra in NC Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I saw that show! It WAS scary. When I think about that show and a book I recently read called "The Cheating Culture" about how widespread and matter-of-fact cheating is, it makes me worry about the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 The students submitted their papers online and then the teachers submitted them to some site that checked for plagerism from some massive database I just wanted to comment on this one part mainly because I know how this works. This database is invaluable now! There simply is no price I could put on the benefits this database has given my DH when he has to grade papers. Students today ARE lazy enough to plagerize because they know that the school system will not punish them for doing so (as they used to in my day). To combat this, this database was started to actually prove the plagerizing. In being able to prove it, the administrators now have more leverage against parents who argue that Timmy could lose his football scholarship if he doesn't pass this class. It's now written in my DH's school code of conduct that: No more than 2 internet cites and they cannot be primary sources and.. Wikipedia is NOT a source (seriously, you wouldn't believe how many kids live on that cite and actually cite it as fact). A student must have a minimum of 2 primary sources from actual books(this has been argued though and is sort of a loophole rule because there are many books on the internet, so many students are doing that. As long as they cite it properly--to the book not the internet--this is acceptable) And lastly, sparknotes or crib sheets or anything like that are not acceptable. :) So this database for plagerizing is really a very invaluable tool for my DH, it truly is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choirfarm Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I just wanted to comment on this one part mainly because I know how this works. This database is invaluable now! There simply is no price I could put on the benefits this database has given my DH when he has to grade papers. So this database for plagerizing is really a very invaluable tool for my DH, it truly is. Oh, yes, I am sure it is. I didn't mean to sound like the teacher's shouldn't use it. As a former English teacher, I have no doubt I would be using it if I were still teaching!!!! It was just amazing to me that kids had access to all of those papers to steal from online. I didn't mean to criticize the teachers!!!:001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choirfarm Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Here's a link to a Frontline show about this... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/kidsonline/ Yep, that is what I watched!!! Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Oh, yes, I am sure it is. I didn't mean to sound like the teacher's shouldn't use it. As a former English teacher, I have no doubt I would be using it if I were still teaching!!!! It was just amazing to me that kids had access to all of those papers to steal from online. I didn't mean to criticize the teachers!!!:001_huh: I didn't think you were criticizing the teachers at all, it just sounded (how you worded it) like you thought the resource wasn't a good thing. :) And because of kids being able to buy papers, that's a good reason why it exists. I'm sure you are aware of the parent troubles my DH goes through with regards to this. It's genuinely sad. And then they (w)itch at us for homeschooling. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelroper Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Evidence abounds. I'm not the biggest tech fan, but I use it, as a tool. It has been effecting jobs & job requirements for a long time (for one the value placed on actual working experience), shaping peoples perceptions of qualifications. Japan is at least one country bemoaning the affect it has had on its society. Merely an example (NOT intended to insult amateur/hobbyists prof. photogs)-- A good example is photography, b/c it is a tech advancement, has undergone several clear leaps in advancement during its history (initially darn near ruined the painters trade, mass marketed to consumers (Kodak), digital now provides "professional results" in the hands of children). The level of visual sophistication the younger generation takes for granted is astounding. They have been exposed to high quality imagery in the mass media their whole life, (basically being educated). For most it holds no value. It doesn't change the fact that a child is just pressing a button and choosing the moment to capture, the camera is doing all the work (& quite sophisticated work now a days)--very similar to search & regurgitate. Not really taking the time to reflect, just moving down the list of required items. Some call it the age of misinformation for this reason. I find it all very disturbing and have settled on a happy medium between the two worlds. What the majority of the people find relevant will remain relevant. SCARY! I don't think I'll be the only one clinging to my books. My decision to homeschool is motivated in part by this phenomenon.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Dh's student teacher was in a teaching methods class at Cal. State and the professor was going over plagerism with the class. One of the students (adults in college training to be teachers) interrupted and said, "I don't see what the big deal is. If I go on the internet and I research and find the paper already written, then I'm doing the work. I'm printing it out so why shouldn't that count?" That right there is the future of education in America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Interestingly enough here is another article in which the "dumbing of America" is discussed. It is a perfect rebuttal to the first article. The Dumbing of America - Washington Post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Dh's student teacher was in a teaching methods class at Cal. State and the professor was going over plagerism with the class. One of the students (adults in college training to be teachers) interrupted and said, "I don't see what the big deal is. If I go on the internet and I research and find the paper already written, then I'm doing the work. I'm printing it out so why shouldn't that count?" That right there is the future of education in America. What's sadder still is DH has heard that from PARENTS as an excuse as to why Junior shouldn't get the F. In my day(haha), we not only got the F, but we got in school suspension as well. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelroper Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 that is what I find interesting about this "tech war", I have come across a lot of info over the years that is at odds. On the one hand, we have info available in such large quantities and accessible from almost anywhere, on the other hand we are losing so much b/c if there isn't an immediate need for it, it can become lost. The younger generation is ignorant of just as much as the older, just in different areas. Some people are "Ludites" and won't touch gadgetry with a 10' pole, are they out of the loop?? My young 20s niece read this and said "That is so true--I can't finish a book, I do get bored." the easy road never really helps in the long run and technology makes an awful lot of roads really really easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelroper Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 What's sadder still is DH has heard that from PARENTS as an excuse as to why Junior shouldn't get the F. In my day(haha), we not only got the F, but we got in school suspension as well. ;) it is the change in values as a society, my brother quit teaching at a private school b/c the parents kept requesting he change their children's grades (for the better). They didn't care that the child didn't do the work, they wanted a sparkling record. Most of the dc were fully capable just lazy. He finally got disgusted and left teaching. My parents would never have thought to do that nor would I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kidsforME Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 What's sadder still is DH has heard that from PARENTS as an excuse as to why Junior shouldn't get the F. In my day(haha), we not only got the F, but we got in school suspension as well. ;) AND the parents were fine with Junior getting the punishment because it taught Junior a lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichelleWI Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 A few meandering thoughts ... This is an unstable system. Homeschooling, charter schools, these things didn't even exist when I was a kid, but they are everywhere now. That is a quote from the article. The man is ill-informed. "Homeschooling" has existed in some form for hundreds to thousands of years. True, formal education and not just story-telling. Perhaps he ought to Google the "history of homeschooling". Teenagers cannot function without a cell phone in their hands. That quote is from Christine (choirfarm). I just wanted to share my agreement. My husband is in retail cellular sales. He deals with the teenagers who come in, ready to pass out completely if their cell phone cannot be immediately repaired or replaced. He sells new phones to students whose phones have been confiscated (he cannot discriminate and must sell to the parents or students over age 18) because they used them improperly during school hours. He has watched parents kowtow to their children's demands for the latest, coolest phone with the biggest, most expensive texting package. The behavior, allowed and encouraged by the parents, is truly unbelievable. Steve Jobs rejects the idea of Apple making or distributing e-books because he says people don't read books. He's right, book readers are older. Young readers graze. Again, from the original article. My children do not graze. They read. I know a good number of children who actually read. Experts and fearmongers have trumpeted for years that books are dying and what is read will be accessed on a little screen. It hasn't happened yet. It will never happen completely. In the meantime, anyone who wants to drop off their outdated books at Goodwill should let me know when they do it so I can reap the rewards of their foolishness. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWSJ Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 What's sadder still is DH has heard that from PARENTS as an excuse as to why Junior shouldn't get the F. In my day(haha), we not only got the F, but we got in school suspension as well. ;) Yes, but what is sadder is that Daisy's post was about college not high school. Cheat in college and you should get the rest of the semester off to think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I just read the book "Cult of the Amature- How Today's Internet is Killing Our Culture." It certainly changed my perspective on technology. I am especially turned off by wikipedia now. Facinating, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate CA Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 This post just rocked my little world. I'm not a technological person and tend to avoid technology most of the time. My children do not play on the computer. We read books, real books. We use our library system and not just for the computers. We go for bike rides and dig in the garden. We are what most of the next generation would term as "old-fashioned." Is the thinking in this post common? Oh, I don't know that I am concerned by his words really. In some ways it bodes well for the homeschooler who can think. People who can think will always be needed especially if they can evaluate and do the work - not just look up answers. I mean I use Google as much as the next person, but I don't *read* Google for soul food. I read books for that. I love the written word and am teaching my children to do the same. I think there are plenty of people who read for pleasure and don't rely upon technology for their life blood. I do know some that do and sometimes, as much as I love real reading, I also really appreciate and find myself addicted to technology like this forum! LOL I think it is important to balance it. My job from home is all tech-based and without it I would not have my work. This is just reality for a great many people. It has also expanded the worlds of many too. I wouldn't know a great many things were it not for technological advancements. My children know how to use a computer, they know how to blog and do a bit of html, but they also know how to bike ride, grow a plant, sketch a dog, etc. There is a balance we must all find, but I am grateful that my children are in my own home, guided by me and my husband. I think they will be richer for their varied experiences here. So no, this article does not scare me - it encourages me. Homeschoolers, in my personal opinion, have a pretty good corner on thinkin'. Times they are a changin' and there isn't any going back to the "good old days"--whatever they were. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 If you're "old-fashioned", I am, too (and so is my family). The article didn't make much of an impression on me, though. Most of what he wrote I've read before so I don't find it earth-shattering. Yes, there is truth to some of what he says, but it's also cast in his opinion. Of course original thought is not dead. Of course, as Kate said, thinking people will always be needed. The new technologies available to us needn't come at the cost of genuinely thinking, living, experiencing. But I admit, I'm concerned when people invest so much in the former, they lose touch with the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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