Rethinking History for an Engineer Guy

[Handmaiden]

I'm rethinking my history plans for my engineer/math/science guy. Next year he wants to take a computer programming class and possibly join a math club. We already don't have a lot of extra time; something's gotta give.

 

We are currently using TOG Year 2 at the D level. We're using the Core books, In-Depth (just listening to the Librivox audio), World View, Geography, and Literature. He LOVES the literature selections, but history is just a subject to endure.

 

Most weeks we discuss accountability and thinking questions, and ds is not really fond of this time ("it's hard"). Each week I have him write 1-2 paragraph summaries of the main topic/historical character he studied that week.

 

I don't know if we should stay with TOG after we're done with the D level. I honestly don't think he will do well with the R level core books when it's time for that level. Or he may do well but hate slogging through some of those books. He reads the core level history books because they're assigned, but his real passions are programming, science, and tinkering with his physics stuff. I'm beginning to think that for him to excel in his area of passion, I will need to lighten the load in history for him.

 

I've read the reviews of the other high school alternatives (Sonlight, Notgrass, Spielvogel) but they each seem to have their drawbacks...

 

Would anyone have wisdom or advice to share? If not TOG, then what?

Edited April 8, 2010 by Handmaiden

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I have the same kind of guy. And I'm facing the same problem.

 

Next year, I will not request any history work from him. At least nothing written. He will be assigned readings, and we will discuss, but that's about it.

We're doing Sonlight, and we'll keep those novels. It will give him a nice overview of history, through literature. I don't think I'll have him go through the history books that Sonlight provides, once we're done with Story of the World. He'll be doing Core 7 next year.

 

After that, well, our solution won't work for you. France has a nice history/geography curriculum that's distributed for free on the net. You can register and get a teacher to correct the student's work, or just take it and run. We'll go with the latter ;-) History will take less than an hour per week. Computer programming will take more and more. So will math and sciences. There are only so many hours in a week, and because of that silly limit, we're becoming less and less classical.

[Beth in Central TX]

My oldest son will be in 9th grade next year. He loves math, science, computer programming, and woodworking; everything else is really unnecessary in his mind, and his least favorite subject is history. Therefore, I narrowed down the field to 3 choices and let him choose which one to do in high school: (1) Spielvogel as outlined in TWTM, (2) Notgrass history, or (3) BJU History. He read through the Spielvogel text I had at home and read as many examples of Notgrass & BJU that he could find on-line. I really thought he would choose Notgrass, but he actually chose BJU. If it's not a subject he's really interested in, then he would rather have a cut and dry textbook so that he can get the work done and move on to the subjects that really inspire him. Now that he has buy-in on the history text, he doesn't seem as opposed to studying history in high school. HTH!

Edited April 8, 2010 by Beth in Central TX

[Guest]

Why not tie in history to his interests? There are so many things you can read about in well-written trade books by scientists and mathematicians: we are right now reading Simon Sigh's The Code Book, which is basically a historical survey of the making and breaking of codes around the world. It touches on ancient history, the Reformation and Renaissance, Arabic cultures, World Wars, etc. He could read a book about the history of technical engineering via the construction of bridges, railroads, road systems, aviation, etc. The history of computing would touch on business, world trade, security, wars, etc. David Bodanis has books on the history of the equation e=mc squared, and the history of the discovery and use of electricity. It goes on and on.

 

This is not conventional (i.e. narrowly defined political/military) history, but it is history nonetheless and perfectly acceptable academically. Many universities, including our branch of the University of California, have History of Science departments. You will end up touching on most major topics a more conventional route would, and your son will be far more interested; plus he'll add to his knowledge of his preferred fields at the same time.

[Handmaiden]

There are only so many hours in a week, and because of that silly limit, we're becoming less and less classical.

 

Cleo, I hear you...while I've always admired the pure classical model but it doesn't seem to fit my guy. He's just not drawn to the humanities, but it takes all kinds to run the world! I am realizing my need to stay flexible as a result. (How nice that France offers such a curriculum!)

 

My oldest son will be in 9th grade next year. He loves math, science, computer programming, and woodworking; everything else is really unnecessary in his mind, and his least favorite subject is history. Therefore, I narrowed down the field to 3 choices and let him choose which one to do in high school: (1) Spielvogel as outlined in TWTM, (2) Notgrass history, or (3) BJU History. He read through the Spielvogel text I had at home and read as many examples of Notgrass & BJU that he could find on-line. I really thought he would choose Notgrass, but he actually chose BJU. If it's not a subject he's really interested in, then he would rather have a cut and dry textbook so that he can get the work done and move on to the subjects that really inspire him. Now that he has buy-in on the history text, he doesn't seem as opposed to studying history in high school. HTH!

 

 

Thanks, Beth. We probably won't be going with BJU due to various issues, but I like your approach...lay out several alternatives and let ds choose which way to go. Hmmmm!

 

Why not tie in history to his interests? There are so many things you can read about in well-written trade books by scientists and mathematicians: we are right now reading Simon Sigh's The Code Book, which is basically a historical survey of the making and breaking of codes around the world. It touches on ancient history, the Reformation and Renaissance, Arabic cultures, World Wars, etc. He could read a book about the history of technical engineering via the construction of bridges, railroads, road systems, aviation, etc. The history of computing would touch on business, world trade, security, wars, etc. David Bodanis has books on the history of the equation e=mc squared, and the history of the discovery and use of electricity. It goes on and on.

 

This is not conventional (i.e. narrowly defined political/military) history, but it is history nonetheless and perfectly acceptable academically. Many universities, including our branch of the University of California, have History of Science departments. You will end up touching on most major topics a more conventional route would, and your son will be far more interested; plus he'll add to his knowledge of his preferred fields at the same time.

 

Ds would LOVE this approach, but many of the colleges I've researched have admissions guidelines which include a minimum of (1) yr World History and (1) yr American History. I think others have also mentioned U.S. Government, but I can't remember the specifics right now. He might be able to study "The History of Science/Math" for one year of Social Studies, but for the rest of high school we'll probably go the conventional route.

 

Thank you for the replies. I appreciate the feedback a lot!

[JennW in SoCal]

I have not done history with a "program" with either of my 2 dc. We covered world and American history through literature, just as laid out in the WTM rhetoric stage AND through their interests, much as Karen describes.

 

For my oldest, we covered American history mostly through a history of theater. He read plays, biographies and autobiographies of playwrights and impressarios, read classic literature and watched movie adaptations of those. He also happened to be fascinated by politics (which is very similar to theater, I guess;)) so we watched several documentaries on different presidents. He loved it and learned more from it than he would through a straightforward history program.

 

For my science/tech guy who also loves literature, we are doing WTM style history and framing his world history around a fun book, A History of the World in Six Glasses. He reads about a period in that book, reads about the philosophers from that period and usually has both a Great Book and a fun book about the period. For the Great Book, he writes a historical context page, as described in the WTM. We read together, discuss, he writes and is learning tons.

 

Each approach was designed to fit each child. I love the literature approach to history they earn a credit for history and a credit for literature -- everything ties in neatly and there is no need to slog through a history text.

 

So don't feel hemmed in by the need for a credit in American and world history. As Karen said, it doesn't have to be the traditional political and military history but can be primarily a science or cultural history with lots of terrific literature. Think about it -- you can't read about Galileo without also learning about the politics of Rome, you can't learn about Einstein without also discussing nuclear weapons. I say step outside the box and make a course you'll both enjoy.

[Guest]

Maybe you could start another thread here or on the college boards asking whether anyone has followed an alternative approach to traditional history, how they listed it on a transcript, and whether the colleges ever questioned the credit. To my mind, something like "World History" is just as open-ended as "British Lit" -- people may choose to focus on very different aspects, texts, genres... Reading lists for literature, for example, vary so much that a group of random high schoolers may only have one or two novels in common, but they'll all be doing British literature. Unless you are planning on trying for AP credit, no one is mandating political/military history in particular so far as I know.

[Grace is Sufficient]

My son is a junior this year, and taking a fantastic, but very time consuming computer networking course at the local career center. It counts for 3.5 credits, and goes from 7:45 to 10:45 every morning (plus travel time.) It also can give a pretty heavy homework load at at times.

 

When I was planning ahead for this year, I was stuck with a similar question: How to fit it all in? Computer Networking Academy (3.5 credits) British Lit (1) Trig/Precalc (1) Physics (1) Health (.5) That's 7 credits, which, if you're not tweaking schedules with block scheduling, is a very healthy load! I also knew that, even going pretty easy on him in terms of British Lit and health/PE requirements, it's a demanding schedule.

 

So, since most college seem to only require 3 years of social studies type classes... I dropped it completely. Frankly, I'm not sure WHAT I'm going to do next year if he continues with year two of the program, though. Maybe have him take some kind of science over the summer so he can leave that out next year???

 

Best of luck to you! I know it can be tough for a lit/history loving mom to figure out how to educate these math/sciency kids!

 

Debbie

[TravelingChris]

My plan for my engineering dd is 1 year of western civ (SPeilvogel and videos, maybe), one year of American history, geography, economics and government- all for half semesters. THat will give her 3.5 yrs of social science and she has expressed interest in psychology so she might end up with 4. I am not doing great books with her except in literature. She is simply not interested and I do want her concentrating on the things she has talents for. This is a regular amount of social science and will fully fulfill college requirements. I think she would go nuts doing TOG rhetoric. It was too much for my much more literary and social sciency kid with her other work and that was with one who likes that kind of thing. With a kid who prefers textbooks, I wouldn't dream of doing it. I would have liked it and my oldest did a great books program but it wasn't the right thing for my other two.

[Handmaiden]

Thank you Jenn, KarenAnne, Debbie, and Chris...It is so helpful to hear about the approaches you are taking with your kids. It's revealed possiblities I have not considered. Thankfully, we still have a bit more to go with TOG at the D level, so that buys me a little time to figure this all out.

 

For those of you who are taking these alternative approaches, how are you planning on listing the courses on transcripts?

[Handmaiden]

:lurk5:

[Nan in Mass]

Answering late -

My older two are at a tiny math/science college now. Their college's stance is that these students are going to be out and about in the world, not just in the US, so those social studies courses and foreign language courses are going to be important, but they recognize that their students aren't particularly good at those things or interested in them and that there is so much else that they have to teach them in four short college years that they are limited in what they can do about it. They seem to have worked out the following compromise: They encourage incoming students to read social studies type books on their own time, telling them that reading is the best single thing they can do to prepare for college and providing a list of attractive, interesting books that might appeal to these rather non-ready kids. They encourage potential students to take history classes while they are still in high school, telling them that it may be their last chance. They list no social studies classes on their "requirements for application" list but list two years of foreign language as "desired". While their students are in college, they are required to take Humanties 1 and Humanities 2 and several other humanities electives from a short list of things that hopefully will work for their non-humanities oriented students. Drawing and photography are on this list, as are foreign languages done independently with Rosetta Stone. Note that those don't require good traditional academic skills (reading massive amounts of material and writing many papers for each class). They do write papers for their classes, but the college seems to have a realistic idea of how many and how long, and assignments in their required composition class are all slanted towards their interests. They slip bits of applicable history and social studies into other classes where they can. They encourage travel. This seems to me to be an admirably practical approach to the problem of getting some awareness of the rest of the world outside the US into their lopsided student body.

 

I think TWTM is going to work very well for my future engineer. It specifically teaches academic skills as opposed to assuming that my son is naturally gifted in that area and leaving him to pick it up as he goes along. It allows us to pick our own books and doesn't insist that we do a certain number every year. It assumes that one needs the support of knowing how a language works (grammar) in order to learn a foreign language. It doesn't emphasize journaling or creative writing. It assumes that the student has been through the history cycle several times already and it isn't necessary to do history in a separate, formal sort of way in high school. It will allow my son to do history/literature/social studies in a more adult, interconnected, interest-based way during high school, which is very important to me because there won't be much time for reading Beowulf or Plato's Republic in engineering school. My general strategy (at the moment) is:

Math at home, then at CC

Foreign languages immersion-style as much as possible (easier because of the Latin he had earlier)

Great Books TWTM/TWEM style

Natural history at home then CC for chem and physics (practical hands-on, interest-based science that will enrich the rest of his life and teach him to draw and design experiments, then formal lab science in a place with a full laboratory)

no logic (geometry and computer programming will cover this)

extra work on writing

no rhetoric (although I will encourage him to take speech at CC)

social studies non-academic style (peacewalking and reading)

music and gymnastics (emotional and physical outlet)

electives built around his interests (his choice here)

creativity and problem solving non-academic style (strategy games and making/repairing things)

 

We'll see if it works.

-Nan

[In The Great White North]

DS (interested in computer science and politics) used America:The Last Best Hope this year. We did get the online Roadmap (I think it was $50 for homeschoolers for each book - it comes in two volumes). The Roadmap has a bazillion links if you're into rabbit trails, as well as multiple choice and essay questions (and answers) for each chapter.

 

He liked it and got a good understanding of American history. It reads like a story, instead of like a textbook, and you can buy the audio version for mP3 players. You can just have him read it for a fairly "light" course or do everything which they claimed would prepare you for the AP test. We went "light" and paired it with American Lit for English.

[Handmaiden]

Thanks, Nan, I had hoped you would weigh in. The math/science college your sons attend sounds like they are wise in their advice to incoming students as well as flexible in offering options for their social studies requirements. It sure sounds like the kind of college my older son might want to attend one day. I bet he'd choose photography over world history.

 

I like your general strategy. Are you requiring him to write any papers after reading the Great Books TWTM/TWEM style? How are you titling this course on your transcript?

[Handmaiden]

DS (interested in computer science and politics) used America:The Last Best Hope this year. We did get the online Roadmap (I think it was $50 for homeschoolers for each book - it comes in two volumes). The Roadmap has a bazillion links if you're into rabbit trails, as well as multiple choice and essay questions (and answers) for each chapter.

 

He liked it and got a good understanding of American history. It reads like a story, instead of like a textbook, and you can buy the audio version for mP3 players. You can just have him read it for a fairly "light" course or do everything which they claimed would prepare you for the AP test. We went "light" and paired it with American Lit for English.

 

I've never heard of this resource. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Nan in Mass]

Yes. He has to write a paper or do a project for most books. Not all, though. We don't do any writing for Shakespeare plays, which we intersperse as relief, although my son astounded me by volunteering to write something short for the last one we read. He had something to say GRIN, which always makes it easier.

 

I went against the standard advice of labelling things with the most common public high school labels of English 1, English 2, etc.. My own high school had descriptive labels on all their English classes, and I wanted my son's transcript to be a document that reflected what was unique about his high school studies. For great books, he had:

Ancient Literature and Analysis

Medieveal Literature and Analysis

Renaissance and Early Modern Literature and Analysis

Science Fiction

Western Civilization

US History

US Government

 

He also, due to his peacewalking, had the following social studies credits:

Peace Studies 1

Peace Studies 2

Japan Studies

Native American Studies

Geography

 

And at community college, he took a semester of speech and a semester of composition, so he had half a credit each of those on his transcript, giving him 5 English credits and 7 social studies credits. I included a school profile in his application (standard paperwork sent to colleges seems to be a transcript, a school profile, a councilor's recommendation) which explained that his English and history classes were done as one great books class, and his other social studies classes were done as peacewalking combined with some reading. I tried to make the transcript descriptive enough to reflect what was special about his education but standard enough that colleges could easily compare what he had done to other students. I have no idea if this strategy would work at any other colleges, but I intend to try the same one for my youngest.

-Nan

[Handmaiden]

Thank you, Nan! This is helpful!

[lauriej]

The history of human civilization is really the history of technology. He could do an independent study of the development of technology throughout human history, beginning with stone tools to metalurgy to the development of gun powder and the printing press and so on. This will encompass a great deal of human events (particularly battles which will lead to the big picture issues of nations and rulers). The main thing he will need to ask is: how has technology shaped human events? A monthly paper on the era he is currently studying would suffice for the written portion of work, in my opinion.

 

Just an aside: I majored in history in college and I really don't like using textbooks for history. They really suck the joy out of the subject for most people. History is so relative- there are so many different angles from which you can approach any given event. I think history is a subject that has something for everyone- the mathematician, the scientist, the artist- if it is approached in the right way.

 

Off the soapbox now. :)

[Handmaiden]

Laurie, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

Do you have specific titles to recommend? If so, I'd love to hear what books you like.

[Nan in Mass]

Not high school level, but mine adored the History of Everyday Things (think I got the title right) series, with all its drawings of artifacts. They read every label of every single one. Perhaps archaeology would be a good way to approach history for a engineer? I know I want mine to have some grounding in cultural anthropology, since that is sort of a blueprint of how societies work, which is handy for engineering-type people. I think it frames it in a way that makes sense to them. Geography, too. Just a thought...

-Nan

[elegantlion]

The history of human civilization is really the history of technology. He could do an independent study of the development of technology throughout human history, beginning with stone tools to metalurgy to the development of gun powder and the printing press and so on. This will encompass a great deal of human events (particularly battles which will lead to the big picture issues of nations and rulers). The main thing he will need to ask is: how has technology shaped human events? A monthly paper on the era he is currently studying would suffice for the written portion of work, in my opinion.

 

 

 

Laurie, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

Do you have specific titles to recommend? If so, I'd love to hear what books you like.

 

I haven't used these titles yet, but after recommendations here they are on my reading list.

The Ancient Engineers - L. Sparague De Camp

 

Napoleon's Buttons

[Handmaiden]

Thanks, Nan and Paula!