Peek a Boo Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I find it ironic that the Niemoller quote is being used to defend HSLDA, considering how many times it's been used to defend gay rights. I also find it ironic that HSLDA claims to fight for "religious freedom" while attempting to take away the rights of another group because of religious beliefs. I don't find it "ironic" --but i also don't think one has a RIGHT to any legal marriage. I do find it ironic that people consider getting legally married a right to fight for, right up there with the right to kill unborn humans on demand for convenience. Kinda like the quote about "killing people for their own good"....yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I do not believe that the HSLDA can do anything more for me as a homeschooler than I could do for myself by staying informed about what is going on in the govt. I do think they prey on fear. So if you want to know why I don't support the HSLDA, it is because I did know someone that taught me that sometimes the power of fear can crush generations of people and their way of life. There's a difference between rational fear and manipulative fear [fear mongering]. There are several CURRENT issues showing people in powerful positions that believe homeschooling is detrimental, damaging, and harmful to a child and needs to be severely regulated-- way more than it is in ANY state. It is rational to be fearful of those ugly issues making their way into political reality: people have always been ready to work very hard to erode those rights. While I agree that individuals need to be vigilant and assertive of their own rights, we have too many examples showing that HSLDA can and does accomplish more as a group with name recognition than many individuals. That's unfortunate, but it is a reality in our world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 yeah... and just once I'd like someone to explain how my not supporting an issue makes me phobic about it. Was there something said to that effect? The context of the comment you quoted was in a thread where the HSLDA's lobbying against gay marriage was an issue. The issue was not not supporting gay marriage but rather actively opposing it and claiming without sufficient support, that it some how damages straight marriages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 AWhile I agree that parents should have the right to determine how their child is educated, it's scary to me that fundamentalist parents deny their girls educations and can legally get away with it. I could NEVER support an organization that stood for denying girls an education. The public school denies children of both sexes an education all the time. In fact, it is so prevalent that they have study after study and law upon law trying to FIX the situation. attending school is not synonymous with getting an education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 Was there something said to that effect? The context of the comment you quoted was in a thread where the HSLDA's lobbying against gay marriage was an issue. The issue was not not supporting gay marriage but rather actively opposing it and claiming without sufficient support, that it some how damages straight marriages. the only thing to that effect is the repetitive nature of the accusation. we hear fear mongering, homophobic, and erosion of marriage pretty regularly: tossed around w/ little real understanding of the phrases. but that's typical . ;) eta: not to mention, the CONTEXT of HSLDA's stance opposing gay marriage has already been established as a legal one wrt parental rights, not having to do w/ "eroding traditional marriage". pqr addressed that earlier. Maybe the poster missed that part.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I don't find it "ironic" --but i also don't think one has a RIGHT to any legal marriage. I do find it ironic that people consider getting legally married a right to fight for, right up there with the right to kill unborn humans on demand for convenience. Kinda like the quote about "killing people for their own good"....yeah. ? This seems like an attempt to discredit an argument without addressing an argument. Those gay marriage people? They're baby-killers! It's not a logical or reasonable way to conduct a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I can't believe I'm jumping into this thread on Xmas. I think I need my head examined. Or a serious infusion of eggnog and fruitcake. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I can't believe I'm jumping into this thread on Xmas. I think I need my head examined. Or a serious infusion of eggnog and fruitcake. :D :cheers2: My best friend makes the best fruitcake; you can get high off the fumes, I swear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 They can choose to become educated in a different way. They can't so easily leave their home and family and defy their wishes to seek the kind of education they wish to have. Changing schools is possible, changing parents is not. If you're stuck with parents that want to deny you an education you wish to have, it's really not so easy to remedy that for yourself, as a child. Any organization that would promote the conservative agenda, to that degree, scares me and certainly does not represent my interests. What's awful is the parents who pursue the indoctrination of their daughters to a life that has few options. In these times, wishing to keep a girl dependent and without choices is foolish at best, dangerous at worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 ? This seems like an attempt to discredit an argument without addressing an argument. Those gay marriage people? They're baby-killers! It's not a logical or reasonable way to conduct a debate. we're talking about rights and irony, not whether the same people support the same causes. I'm sure Mrs. Mungo in no way meant to compare those against gay marriage as nazis either -- according to your statement, she would be guilty of your statement also. :) One must understand what the actual argument is before deciding whether tis logical and reasonable. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 They can choose to become educated in a different way. They can't so easily leave their home and family and defy their wishes to seek the kind of education they wish to have. Changing schools is possible, changing parents is not. If you're stuck with parents that want to deny you an education you wish to have, it's really not so easy to remedy that for yourself, as a child. Any organization that would promote the conservative agenda, to that degree, scares me and certainly does not represent my interests. What's awful is the parents who pursue the indoctrination of their daughters to a life that has few options. In these times, wishing to keep a girl dependent and without choices is foolish at best, dangerous at worst. there's a reason we don't let minors enter into contracts: they do not have the mental capacity to determine what is in their best interests. Apparently the court agrees. In these times, it is almost impossible to completely eliminate choices to an adult. The options are innumerable. we see the truth in dangerous at worst with the crime that happens Every Day on school campuses. Are you willing to disband schools to save children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I can't believe I'm jumping into this thread on Xmas. I think I need my head examined. Or a serious infusion of eggnog and fruitcake. :D It's pretty much another day for us. :) But eggnog does sound good! Merry Christmas everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I just have to say that I am amazed at this thread. I did not say that I turn a blind eye if my rights were opposed or the rights of others were questioned or violated. I said I homeschool in an easy state. I do. There are a lot harder states to homeschool in with a lot more requirements. I do not believe that the HSLDA can do anything more for me as a homeschooler than I could do for myself by staying informed about what is going on in the govt. with regards to homeschooling. I do not believe in the many other things that HSLDA stands for besides homeschooling. I never said that I didn't care about homeschooling rights and what was going on. I do not care for the HSLDA and their tactics. I do think they prey on fear. By the way, Hitler also preyed on fear. The fear that the Jews would make more money, have better jobs, and provide a better future for their children than the Germans could provide for their prodigy. Also, the person who made the quote about Jews, do you know of anyone personally that lived during that time? I do and she taught me a lot. My Uncle's mother was German and my Uncle was born in Germany during the war to a German mother (on the black list) and an American military father. She said before her death that she saw changes in our country that reminded her of Germany before the war. While you put that you were not comparing it to Nazi Germany that is what you did by putting in the quote. I have never heard that quote before tonight. It did make me think. It made me think about my Uncle's Mother and the hardships that she went through because she didn't turn a blind eye during Nazi Germany. I am not turning a blind eye to homeschooling issues. I don't like the way the HSLDA represents itself and the homeschooling issues in my state. I am really torn about what to write b/c while I realize you may not have intended the quote as it is written...it really feels as if by writing that I homeschool in an easy state which was taken out of context from what I originally wrote that I am comparable to a someone who would blindly stand by in Nazi Germany and watch as others are persecuted. It may not have been intended that way, but read the quote. It is powerful for a reason. It is meant to shame and guilt someone into feeling remorse for situations long gone that they had no power over or to make them feel as if they are standing by and watching persecutions occur. It just so happens that I was close to a person who did know what it felt like not to stand by and watch those things happen. A person with integrity and honesty that saw many things in their life and lived to teach others what to stand up for and what to fight against. So if you want to know why I don't support the HSLDA, it is because I did know someone that taught me that sometimes the power of fear can crush generations of people and their way of life. I live in Europe. Almost everyone over 75 has strong memories of that time, so yes I do know people from that era. It has been one of my greatest honors to host a meeting of some 50 WWII veterans in my house and I am well versed in the period. I tried to avoid the comparisons to the Nazis, and will say again what I posted originally ""I am not in any way drawing a comparison." Nevertheless, if you wish to talk about people during that era (NOT RELATED TO HSing AND NOT MAKING A PERSONAL ATTACK, BUT SIMPLY A HISTORICAL REFERENCE), yes Hitler did prey on fear but not always in the way you imagine. Hitler preyed on the fear of Englishmen and French that there would be another war. The English lived in a secure nation, they had the Channel and the Royal navy. The French lived in a secure nation, their army was, on paper, the most capable on the European mainland. What Hitler played upon was their fear of losing another generation to the trenches. They (democratic Europe) backed down in the face of his challenge and let him remilitarize the Rhineland, rebuild the Luftwaffe, rebuild the Kriegsmarine and the Wehrmacht, they allowed Anschluss, they gave away Czechoslovakia, despite a treaty that said they would not. They cowered and hid in their secure nations and we all know what happened. Inside Germany, Jews had faced centuries of persecution. Hitler fed on hatred AND fear. He was elected in a democratic election, he passed laws (who you could marry, if you could own a gun <yes gun control was one of his favorites>, where you could live) and then he went after people. It was going after people while others stood silently because they were "safe" and afraid that the quote was about. (It works for the thread discussion WITHOUT needing to make comparisons between today and the Nazi Era but simply as it demonstrates the need to stand together or … to paraphrase Franklin we shall surely hang apart). I understand not liking the HSLDA, but please understand that as they are the largest advocate for our HSing rights and these rights are under attack I take umbrage at the idea that "the HSLDA can (Not) do anything more for me as a homeschooler than I could do for myself by staying informed about what is going on in the govt. with regards to homeschooling". The HSLDA does do things for HSers and there is not another group that speaks for us, at the same volume. The blithe view (not one that you expressed) that HS rights are safe does have some similarities to earlier periods when people were intentionally blind to threats. Lest we forget, on this very special day, Merry Christmas. Disagreements do not require animosity. 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[email protected] Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 Go open your presents. Moderator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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