Is there anything like WWE but not so teacher-intensive?

[razorbackmama]

I am drowning when it comes to time spent doing school (6-7 hours). I am teaching 5 this year (7th, 5th, 4th, 1st, and K). Here are the things I am currently doing with children (they do more, but it's independent stuff that they just bring to me when they need help or whatnot):

AWANA with the K and 1st graders (about 15 min. total)

Bible Study Guide for All Ages with all 5 (about 45 min. total)

MFW K with the Ker (1 hour)

MFW 1 (just the phonics and math) with the 1st grader (30 min.)

WWE Level 1 with the 1st grader (5-10 min., depending on the day)

WWE Level 3 with the 4th, 5th, and 7th graders (45 min. total)

AAS Level 3 with the 4th grader and then the 5th and 7th graders (30 min. total)

MFW ECC with the 4th, 5th, and 7th graders (about 2-2.5 hours, depending on the assignments for the day)

Visualizing and Verbalizing with the 7th grader (about 15-20 min.)

 

This does not include the amount of time I spend checking their work and getting things ready for the next day (about an hour).

 

I'm pondering a switch to Megawords for my older 2. AAS is working well with my 4th grader, and she needs the intense, one-on-one spelling work.;)

 

I love WWE and the philosophy, but really I need to figure out SOME way to cut out some of the "Mom intense" subjects, and this is one of the ones that I'm thinking might be able to go? Is there anything like it that is a bit more independent? At one time I was eyeballing Meaningful Composition...is it anything like WWE philosophy-wise, or is it a totally different ball of wax and more of a traditional writing program (like BJU, R&S, Writing Strands, etc.)?

 

I'm expecting a baby in early Jan., and honestly I am terrified. I'm struggling enough as it is, and that is WITHOUT a newborn in the mix.:001_huh:

 

I know that in upcoming years it will be better, as the K and 1st grader can be combined into the older kids' studies, but for this year...yikes.

[KarenNC]

To clarify, are you using the workbooks for WWE or are you having to find all the passages for narration and dictation yourself (which would be much more Mom-intensive)?

[razorbackmama]

To clarify, are you using the workbooks for WWE or are you having to find all the passages for narration and dictation yourself (which would be much more Mom-intensive)?

 

Currently I'm looking up the passages on my own, but that takes all of about 1-2 minutes at the beginning of each writing time. It's not mom-intensive at all. I've used the workbooks in the past, but I prefer finding my own passages (since the workbooks' passages are MUCH more difficult than what the textbook calls for).

[Mommy7]

Could you not combine the children in WWE3 and do it at the same time? I know it is a span of ages, but I think it could work. That could save you 30 minutes, anyway. :)

 

I know it is tough to figure out when schooling so many...I am schooling 6 this year...5 grades, though.

[razorbackmama]

Could you not combine the children in WWE3 and do it at the same time? I know it is a span of ages, but I think it could work. That could save you 30 minutes, anyway. :)

 

Any suggestions as to how? I thought about it but couldn't figure out just HOW to do it.:confused:

[siloam]

Any suggestions as to how? I thought about it but couldn't figure out just HOW to do it.:confused:

 

Kristen,

 

I would combine it with the Bible. You already have the comp questions, you just have them do the narration/dictation part.

 

Heather

 

[razorbackmama]

Kristen,

 

I would combine it with the Bible. You already have the comp questions, you just have them do the narration/dictation part.

 

Heather

 

 

 

Alas, their reading level isn't quite high enough to do that.:glare: And WWE3 is based off of them reading it and then narrating/dictating, rather than me reading it to them. Their reading level SHOULD be high enough, but...BIG HEAVY SIGH.

[siloam]

Alas, their reading level isn't quite high enough to do that.:glare: And WWE3 is based off of them reading it and then narrating/dictating, rather than me reading it to them. Their reading level SHOULD be high enough, but...BIG HEAVY SIGH.

 

Could you fudge and use a NIVr version? No not my favorite, but if it is only for a short time....

 

The only other thing I could think of is pick one book they all can read, and have them all do it on the same text.

 

Heather

 

[lovemykids]

I would think you could combine the first grader and the Ker, and then maybe the fourth and the fifth grader with WWE.(since they might be at a similar level) The seventh grader could do something more independent like Meaningful Composition; it’s very similar to IEW’s methodology. Or you could possibly have the fourth and fifth grader do the same MC book, or all three as you are doing now. Look at the sample pages for MC, to see if it might be a fit or not.

 

I bought MC, thought I hated it, now I’m not so sure. It’s not so bad; we can just work through it at a much faster pace than recommended. Not saying that we will, but we did a week or two weeks in a day or two, it was very slow. But good!

 

Or what about IEW’s SWI? You could get the DVD that teaches to the students. Also, LLATL is very independent, and it has the copywork and dictation.

[razorbackmama]

Could you fudge and use a NIVr version? No not my favorite, but if it is only for a short time....

 

Sadly, I think a few of them STILL wouldn't quite get it (depending on the passage, of course). (Reading comprehension is right behind phonics in my list of "banes of my existence.":lol: )

 

The only other thing I could think of is pick one book they all can read, and have them all do it on the same text.

 

I thought of that too, but then they'd all be trying to read out of the same book at the same time if we're doing writing all at the same time. This is exactly what I meant by not being able to figure out HOW LOL.

[razorbackmama]

I would think you could combine the first grader and the Ker,

 

The Ker isn't doing WWE at all yet. The 1st grader is doing WWE1, and it's pretty quick and painless (especially on copywork days:D ).

 

and then maybe the fourth and the fifth grader with WWE.(since they might be at a similar level)

 

Yeah, they are currently on the same level, along with the 7th grader. (He's NOT performing at grade level, though I am working hard to get him there!)

 

The seventh grader could do something more independent like Meaningful Composition; it’s very similar to IEW’s methodology.

 

Which is WHAT, exactly? How does IEW/MC differ from WWE? That's what I've been trying to figure out but haven't been able to.

 

Or what about IEW’s SWI? You could get the DVD that teaches to the students. Also, LLATL is very independent, and it has the copywork and dictation.

 

I'll have to look into those...thanks!

[lovemykids]

Well since you have WWE, I don’t have to describe it to you. (whew!) IEW and MC take an incremental approach to writing. I think that these programs tend to be wonderful for children who don’t know what to put down on paper. (having said that, I still like WWE style better) It takes all the guesswork out of what words to use, how many sentences to use, exactly what to write about, (a lot of rewriting). Both programs use the key word outline as a starting point, then jumps into adding quality words, using checklists, a banned word list, etc. MC gives very specific directions often step by step and line by line…slow….but I see how it can be effective.

My dd is a good writer from having used a CM style of writing for her early years, (much like WWE) but she still gets stressed out from writing assignments. She had requested that I tell her how many lines, paragraphs and what not when I gave her assignments. I would only vaguely give her a guideline. MC gives her too much information, step by step, by step,by step..... I’m not sure she likes that either.

[razorbackmama]

exactly what to write about, (a lot of rewriting).

 

What do they rewrite? A passage that IEW/MC gives them?

 

Both programs use the key word outline as a starting point,

 

I know that it'd be somewhat different, but would it be similar to the outlining that SWB recommends for the logic stage?

 

What is it that you like better about the WWE style?

[Nestof3]

Honestly, I don't see a way of shaving off the time. I think 15 minutes of individual writing time is necessary.

 

I've tried to figure out a way to combine them, but I cannot. Because of the oral narration invloved, it seems each child would have to have his own time with you.

[abbeyej]

I hate to say it when you're feeling overwhelmed, but 6-7 hours a day for school to teach 5 school-aged children (including two who are needing some remedial work to get up to grade level) does *not* sound unreasonable to me. It sounds like you've done a lot of paring down and streamlining already.

 

And I don't mean that to discourage you at all! That's a *huge* job to teach 5 kids at different levels and wrangle a toddler, not to mention the physical exertion of a pregnancy...

 

But I think maybe your expectations are a little off if you expect to be able to do all that with less hands-on teacher time. Younger students need less instruction overall, but a higher percentage of their learning time is entirely teacher-directed. For older students, a lower percentage of that time needs teacher-direction, but it's still likely more time overall because they just have more to do... Not to mention that if you have a 7th grader with lagging skills in basics like reading and writing, it's just going to take time and focus on your part.

 

And maybe *recognizing* that and altering your expectations accordingly will, ultimately, make it easier to swallow?

 

As for WWE, I think it might help you to invest in the workbook so that the assignments are already laid out, along with clear expectations for what comes next. It may seem that it will only shave a couple of minutes off your day, but I think it's likely to take off a few more, and give them the chance to be a little more independent as well. Still, I don't see how you can spend less than 15 minutes a day with each of the older ones on writing.

 

Are there other areas where you could get help that might make things go more smoothly in your household? Are the older children doing a good job of helping you with household duties? Are there ways that you could streamline housekeeping or cooking responsibilities during the week? I just don't see how you can teach the number of children that you have in all their various levels and do it justice with a lot less time than you're spending now...

[lovemykids]

[/font]

 

What do they rewrite? A passage that IEW/MC gives them?

 

 

 

I know that it'd be somewhat different, but would it be similar to the outlining that SWB recommends for the logic stage?

 

What is it that you like better about the WWE style?

 

Well, I hope I can explain this properly. SWB teaches writing through imitation and narration. Through narrating, you are helping the student to put thoughts into their own words. Dictation teaches the student to put down their own words on paper eventually. The act of remembering the dictated sentences in his head will help him have his own voice, and get it out on paper effectively when needed. WTM later goes on to teach a form of formal or traditional outlining, a skill which is useful for finding the main ideas, and topics, and then details. This is going to aid the student in writing excellently organized papers. All good writers should know how to outline so they can properly organize their ideas.

 

Keyword outlines on the other hand are often used for speeches, or note taking. It is a nice tool to use for helping children to avoid plagiarism. By jotting down the keywords, the student is forced to rewrite the material in their own words (not style). I’m sure KWOs are a fabulous tool when used in note taking skills for college; I’m just not so sure it’s needed for elementary writing.

 

Both types of outlining are beneficial to learn. I believe MC and IEW teach formal outlining a little later than WTM. So I guess it’s up to you to decide how you want your child to learn, or which method will suit them best. If you are going to use IEW, make sure your children have had enough copywork beforehand. With your first grader, it’s okay to have him doing just copywork until he is old enough to start IEW. (if that’s the method you are going to use)

 

Oh, to answer your other question, yes, IEW and MC provide the material to rewrite. You can look at the samples at their websites.

Edited October 24, 2009 by lovemykids
added info

[lovemykids]

I think it's perfectly reasonable, and even necessary I might add, to cut down on your teaching time. You can still teach them effectively without being so drained, as a matter of fact, you can teach them more effectively. Try cutting down on history or science, according to the needs of your family.

Hugs! Congrats on the new baby to come!!

[Mommy7]

This post is referring to my previous response.

 

You asked how to combine the 3 for WWE3? Am I understanding correctly...that all 3 that you listed together are doing WWE3? So, does that mean that you are doing it separately with each one?

 

I was meaning to do them all three at the table together, while you read the passage or whatever...does that make sense? I'm using WWE1 & 2 right now, but haven't looked at WWE3. WWE1 & 2 take 10-15 mins....that is why I was thinking you could save 30 mins. if you killed 3 birds with one stone.

 

This idea may not be the least amount of help if WWE3 is more time consuming than the other 2 or if it is not conducive to doing all at the same time. :confused:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I don't use WWE, but I do spend a total of 8-10 hours each day homeschooling four boys (ages 5 to 13), none of whom are behind. That includes P.E., art, and music.

 

Each child's day is not that long, but my day is!

 

I find that I can combine the middle two for Bible, History, and Science, but that's all! The 7th grader and the kindergartner can't combine with anyone.

 

15 minutes would be the least I spend with each child on English. Usually it is closer to 20 or 25 minutes. We all do English at the same time, so I start some of them on copywork while I review the grammar lesson with one of them. I just rotate around until everyone has been taught his lesson AND everyone has had his lesson checked for the day.

 

I do math the same way.

 

The K'er gets an hour of uninterrupted attention for his studies. The 7th grader has discussion time for history, science, and literature at the end of the day. He's studying those subjects independently, so I need to have this talking time with him to make sure he's understanding everything.

 

So I guess I'm saying I agree with abbeyej. It just takes time. I hope this sounds gentle, because I know exhaustion, too. I'm just stating what I believe to be fact.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Dulcimeramy

[siloam]

This idea may not be the least amount of help if WWE3 is more time consuming than the other 2 or if it is not conducive to doing all at the same time. :confused:

 

Earlier she said that WWE 3 requires the child to read the passage, which is the problem. How to have the children all read the same book within a short enough period that they don't forget everything they read before the narration sort of thing.

 

Heather

 

[Another Lynn]

Why not break the rules a bit and do WWE3 all together with a read aloud? It may not be according to WWE3 instructions - but if it would save you 30 minutes or more to combine the older three this way, and still give them quality experience with narration and dictation I say go for it. You have a lot on your plate right now!

[lovemykids]

Why not break the rules a bit and do WWE3 all together with a read aloud? It may not be according to WWE3 instructions - but if it would save you 30 minutes or more to combine the older three this way, and still give them quality experience with narration and dictation I say go for it. You have a lot on your plate right now!

Yes, please break the rules!! :)

 

Well, I hope you all figure out how to help her save time. Poor Kristen, she has a full school room, a toddler, and she’s pregnant. I would be tired too. Honestly, I would pull out LLATL and have those kids all working independently. I would unschool the Ker, focusing on reading skills and rotate my time with everything else. I would let the 7th grader babysit, and go take a nap. And I wouldn’t call myself a slacker, but instead I would call myself an intelligent person who knows her limits. :lol:

[siloam]

I think I will climb on the break the rules bandwagon, for several reasons.

 

Given you have struggling readers, the material they are narrating is probably not that great. Not that it is bad it just doesn't fall into the category of great literature, right? They might even find it more interesting to narrate material read to them because of it.

 

In addition I didn't have WWE with my oldest, and she did all her narrations from oral resources till 4th or 5th grade. It doesn't seem to have hurt her. She is doing well with CW. My 2nd dd is also doing well with Aesop (at a very slow pace), though I do continue to first read it to her, then she reads it to me. She is finishing up WWE 2 and I didn't realize that WWE 3 has the child read and narrate. To be honest she is doing well enough now in narrations that I might skip WWE 3 and 4 and just continue with CW.

 

Mostly you have to keep your sanity and be able to run the race long term. If that requires you just focus on your oldest for a while, then I would do that. If it requires you work from material read to them vs. they read...go for it. You can do narrations from materiel they have read once a week once their reading has come more up to speed just to make sure they have nailed it.

 

And if it is any consolation the days are long here too. I get up at 6:30 (exercise first and do chores) and we are often sill working on hs at 6:00 with dinner in the oven, and on some days we still haven't made it to read aloud time. I am still working one on one with my oldest trying to wrap up her daily work. Hs easily takes 6 hours a day for me.

 

Heather

[lovemykids]

I think I will climb on the break the rules bandwagon, for several reasons.

 

Given you have struggling readers, the material they are narrating is probably not that great. Not that it is bad it just doesn't fall into the category of great literature, right? They might even find it more interesting to narrate material read to them because of it.

 

In addition I didn't have WWE with my oldest, and she did all her narrations from oral resources till 4th or 5th grade. It doesn't seem to have hurt her. She is doing well with CW. My 2nd dd is also doing well with Aesop (at a very slow pace), though I do continue to first read it to her, then she reads it to me. She is finishing up WWE 2 and I didn't realize that WWE 3 has the child read and narrate. To be honest she is doing well enough now in narrations that I might skip WWE 3 and 4 and just continue with CW.

 

Mostly you have to keep your sanity and be able to run the race long term. If that requires you just focus on your oldest for a while, then I would do that. If it requires you work from material read to them vs. they read...go for it. You can do narrations from materiel they have read once a week once their reading has come more up to speed just to make sure they have nailed it.

 

And if it is any consolation the days are long here too. I get up at 6:30 (exercise first and do chores) and we are often sill working on hs at 6:00 with dinner in the oven, and on some days we still haven't made it to read aloud time. I am still working one on one with my oldest trying to wrap up her daily work. Hs easily takes 6 hours a day for me.

 

Heather

:iagree:

 

Days are long here too, but if I end up dead from exhaustion, that’s not going to do anyone any good.

;)

I agree to focus on bringing your 7th graders reading level up to par. Oral narrations sound like they will fit the bill.

MC would be a great way to have your DC work independently while you take a break with the toddler for snuggle time. You would still have to go over their work, but the time would much less.

 

:grouphug:

[razorbackmama]

If you do WWE with the 7th grader can he then turn around and do it with the siblings?

 

Oh my word, no. They are more advanced than he is.:001_huh:

 

Can the 5th grader do AWANA with the little ones?

 

POSSIBLY, but he is not very, um, OBSERVANT, so he probably wouldn't catch if they got it right or not LOL.

 

If you wrote the WWE passage on a white board could they all do WWE 3 together?

 

Yes, but that's a whole lot of writing LOL! They are reading passages that are 30-35 lines long.

[razorbackmama]

I hate to say it when you're feeling overwhelmed, but 6-7 hours a day for school to teach 5 school-aged children (including two who are needing some remedial work to get up to grade level) does *not* sound unreasonable to me. It sounds like you've done a lot of paring down and streamlining already.

 

This is actually where I've always come from as well. One of those "givens," if you will. But I'm crashing and burning from school plus everything else that has to be done. (Dad is around for about an hour a day when the kids are awake.)

 

As for WWE, I think it might help you to invest in the workbook so that the assignments are already laid out, along with clear expectations for what comes next. It may seem that it will only shave a couple of minutes off your day, but I think it's likely to take off a few more, and give them the chance to be a little more independent as well.

 

We actually used to use the workbooks, but level 2 especially was EXTREMELY frustrating to use. The passages that are in the workbook are WAY more difficult than the textbook calls for. So this way I'm able to pull the assignments that the textbook actually says to, and it has been much less frustrating all the way around. I use the workbook for level 1 still.

 

Are there other areas where you could get help that might make things go more smoothly in your household? Are the older children doing a good job of helping you with household duties? Are there ways that you could streamline housekeeping or cooking responsibilities during the week? I just don't see how you can teach the number of children that you have in all their various levels and do it justice with a lot less time than you're spending now...

 

We are working on that. They require a lot of supervision, and it's only me. I actually do know the root problem of what is going on, but unfortunately it is something that I can do nothing about, so instead of solving that root problem I get to figure out how to stick bandaids on everything to hold it all together. Yahoo.:banghead:

 

This post is referring to my previous response.

 

You asked how to combine the 3 for WWE3? Am I understanding correctly...that all 3 that you listed together are doing WWE3? So, does that mean that you are doing it separately with each one?

 

I was meaning to do them all three at the table together, while you read the passage or whatever...does that make sense? I'm using WWE1 & 2 right now, but haven't looked at WWE3. WWE1 & 2 take 10-15 mins....that is why I was thinking you could save 30 mins. if you killed 3 birds with one stone.

 

This idea may not be the least amount of help if WWE3 is more time consuming than the other 2 or if it is not conducive to doing all at the same time. :confused:

 

Yeah, Heather nailed it. In levels 1 and 2 they are to narrate from a read-aloud. In levels 3 and 4 they narrate from a passage they read themselves. I have been pulling their passages from their literature books. The 7th grader is about to start Call it Courage, the 5th grader just finished Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH, and the 4th grader is reading A Traitor Among Us. The part that takes "so long" (it's NOT that long per child, of course) is the individual narrations and dictating the sentences. So I'm not sure reading it aloud all at once would really cut down on that part. Right now while one child is reading their passage I'm finding a passage for the next child. (I am a member of Multi-taskers Anonymous.:D )

 

One of my projects for the weekend is tweaking our schedule. Our current one is going *OK*, but somehow I have to rearrange or something because still things are not getting done that have to.

 

Thanks for working through this with me, ladies. I have been praying for wisdom on just exactly what I need to do about this because the million and one plates I have spinning are starting to fall, so I need to do SOMETHING.:confused1:

[lovemykids]

 

(I am a member of Multi-taskers Anonymous.:D )

 

 

 

 

Me too!:lol:

 

I hope you find a solution.

[razorbackmama]

Well, I hope I can explain this properly. SWB teaches writing through imitation and narration. Through narrating, you are helping the student to put thoughts into their own words. Dictation teaches the student to put down their own words on paper eventually. The act of remembering the dictated sentences in his head will help him have his own voice, and get it out on paper effectively when needed. WTM later goes on to teach a form of formal or traditional outlining, a skill which is useful for finding the main ideas, and topics, and then details. This is going to aid the student in writing excellently organized papers. All good writers should know how to outline so they can properly organize their ideas.

 

Keyword outlines on the other hand are often used for speeches, or note taking. It is a nice tool to use for helping children to avoid plagiarism. By jotting down the keywords, the student is forced to rewrite the material in their own words (not style). I’m sure KWOs are a fabulous tool when used in note taking skills for college; I’m just not so sure it’s needed for elementary writing.

 

Both types of outlining are beneficial to learn. I believe MC and IEW teach formal outlining a little later than WTM. So I guess it’s up to you to decide how you want your child to learn, or which method will suit them best. If you are going to use IEW, make sure your children have had enough copywork beforehand. With your first grader, it’s okay to have him doing just copywork until he is old enough to start IEW. (if that’s the method you are going to use)

 

Thanks, this helps! Plagiarism is an issue with my oldest especially - he REALLY struggles with how to word things. Heck, even in talking he just repeats word for word (or as close as he can remember) what the original said.:tongue_smilie:

 

We are using R&S for grammar, and it teaches formal outlining...would this, combined with the outlining in MC be enough, do you think? I'm leaning toward MC simply because it appears to be more user-friendly than IEW. Would they need more copywork with MC?

[lovemykids]

I think that MC is a good choice, but you might want to add copywork taken from their history or literature readers. At least that would not be very time consuming.

MC might be just what your ds needs, it seems like it would be a perfect fit for remedial students. I hope it helps you! Just because we like something doesn’t always mean it’s the best for our circumstances, or our children. (WWE)

Best wishes!

[razorbackmama]

I think that MC is a good choice, but you might want to add copywork taken from their history or literature readers. At least that would not be very time consuming.

 

Pondering...they aren't doing that anymore with WWE either. They DO do some copywork (not a lot, but about once a week or so) with MFW, however.

 

Just because we like something doesn’t always mean it’s the best for our circumstances, or our children. (WWE)

 

LOL that's how Sonlight is with me.;) At least there it totally was NOT working with my kids, so it was very easy to switch. WWE (and AAS, something else I'm switching from for my olders) ARE working, but I just don't have the time.:glare:

[lovemykids]

[/font]

 

Pondering...they aren't doing that anymore with WWE either. They DO do some copywork (not a lot, but about once a week or so) with MFW, however.

 

 

LOL that's how Sonlight is with me.;) At least there it totally was NOT working with my kids, so it was very easy to switch. WWE (and AAS, something else I'm switching from for my olders) ARE working, but I just don't have the time.:glare:

 

I wish we had more time in the day! :confused: There is a lot more that I would like to do with my children also...

[razorbackmama]

OK it's a done deal LOL. I just ordered MC for my older 3 and the Megawords Assessment manual so I can know what to get for my older 2.

 

Thanks again for all your help, everyone.:grouphug: