Need help...Is this rigorous?

[J'etudie]

We've homeschooled from the beginning, but as my oldest is only 7 I lack experience. I've been reading the high/low standards threads, and frankly I don't know if my second grader's day is rigorous or not.

 

Below is a typical day M-Th. We rotate history, literature, geography, science, and drawing. Fridays are shorter; we still do math but exchange most of the rest for library, art/music study, critical thinking, e-mails to family, and some type of project for other people, e.g., get well cards to sick relatives, take food to the food bank, etc.

 

 

• Listened to Memory CD during breakfast (15 min)
  
• Primary Mathematics 2A, introduced multiplication, did Exercises 31-33, and did 5 Practice 2B problems orally (25 min)
  
• Copywork in best Italic cursive “Beautiful young people are accidents of nature, but beautiful old people are works of art.†~ Eleanor Roosevelt (30-40 min with excessive dawdling, lots of daydreaming, and a brief interruption when Grammy came to p/u dd; could have been done in less than 10 min)
  
• Circle Time: reviewed topics from Children’s Communion class; prayed; read one poem from Now We Are Six; read one chapter from Charlotte’s Web; read one chapter from Black Ships Before Troy (30-40 min)
  
• Song School Latin: listened to chapter song twice, read short paragraph called Chapter Lesson, briefly discussed commands versus nouns, talked about one English derivative (less than 10 min)
  
• History: read aloud one LG book from TOG Y1, short oral narration, he read related books independently during Quiet Time (20 min)
  
• Math: Played one RS Math game (10 min)
  
• WWE 2: began copywork for Day 2, accompanied by much groaning. Only made him do half the sentence today in best cursive, “I shall give you half an hour to be up, dressed, washed, teeth…†(20 min, including groaning)
  
• Spanish, listened to audio, added 2 vocabulary words to poster, colored a page (20 min)
  

Sometimes I think we're doing great, and other times I think we basically wrote 1-2 sentences and did a little math. I need perspective. Anyone able to chime in?

[Terabith]

I would add in reading (him reading) and spelling or grammar. I might beef up math. Everything else looks good!

[IsabelC]

Sometimes I think we're doing great, and other times I think we basically wrote 1-2 sentences and did a little math. I need perspective. Anyone able to chime in?

OK, I'm not going to comment on your program because I haven't got as far as second grade with any of my children. But this last bit of your post struck me as important. Can I respectfully suggest that you try to avoid equating LEARNING with OUTPUT? Sure, the words and pictures committed to paper might not amount to much, but your son has learnt a heck of a lot more than that. All the listening and talking is learning too. Even complaining and dawdling over things, he is learning a lesson about it sometimes being necessary or appropriate to do things that we don't enjoy doing! (Although you might want to explore some ways of motivating him to dawdle a bit less.)

[lovemykids]

It looks great. :) Enjoy yourself!

[missmoe]

I don't think I can tell you if it is rigorous. What are your goals--short-term and long-term? Is what you do each day going to help you meet those goals in a timely manner? Also, each child is different. What is rigorous for one may not be for another. What your family deems important may be different for my family. Only you can determine if your program is the right kind of rigorous for your child.

[J'etudie]

I would add in reading (him reading) and spelling or grammar. I might beef up math. Everything else looks good!

 

Thanks for responding. He does read a lot on his own so I never considered it part of lesson time. Maybe I should?

 

I've been using copywork for spelling and grammar for this year (along with informal stuff like the parts of speech chants on the FLL CD), but I have a plan for the next few years that includes Megawords, Latin, and Analytical Grammar. Do you think I'm missing something by not starting earlier? I love efficiency; tasks that do double/triple duty are my favorites! But I'm certainly open to hearing how starting younger/doing more is beneficial.

 

We did go back and do some MUS Beta today in addition to Primary Mathematics. We left off the student book at Lesson 20 because he had come to hate math. Today's work went well, though, so I appreciate the suggestion!

 

Thanks again!

[J'etudie]

OK, I'm not going to comment on your program because I haven't got as far as second grade with any of my children. But this last bit of your post struck me as important. Can I respectfully suggest that you try to avoid equating LEARNING with OUTPUT? Sure, the words and pictures committed to paper might not amount to much, but your son has learnt a heck of a lot more than that. All the listening and talking is learning too. Even complaining and dawdling over things, he is learning a lesson about it sometimes being necessary or appropriate to do things that we don't enjoy doing! (Although you might want to explore some ways of motivating him to dawdle a bit less.)

 

You make an excellent point. I think I've been on that side of the equation up until now (they learn so much all the time), but sometimes I wonder if I've neglected something on the other side (the one that says you do need to do some actual work :D).

 

We are working on the dawdling...ai, yi, yi!!!

 

Thank you!

[J'etudie]

I don't think I can tell you if it is rigorous. What are your goals--short-term and long-term? Is what you do each day going to help you meet those goals in a timely manner? Also, each child is different. What is rigorous for one may not be for another. What your family deems important may be different for my family. Only you can determine if your program is the right kind of rigorous for your child.

 

Very true. I do appreciate being able to see the entire spectrum of what works for different families. I think that's the one thing I lack as a homeschooler that a ps teacher would have...that vast experience with 100s of X graders to see all the versions of normal, kwim?

 

Thanks for the reminder.

[J'etudie]

I think it looks fine.

 

Thanks for reading! :)

[J'etudie]

It looks great. :) Enjoy yourself!

 

Thanks. I have to remember that enjoyment part some days. :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

I am glad to have this thread as something to compare our hs to. We are doing less than that. I am adding more unschoolish things.

 

If you are using copywork for grammar and spelling (I thought there was a lot of it) then you might want to teach it that way. I have DD underline the nouns and circle the verbs, or pay attention to how one of the words contains a spelling rule or phonogram.

 

I have seen a lot of people go on about the grammar memorization in FLL 2 and how beneficial they felt it was to their kids, so I went ahead and added it in. For reading I got a program b/c DDs reading level wasn't budging.

 

I am wondering if Megawords is okay with no former spelling programs?

[J'etudie]

If you are using copywork for grammar and spelling (I thought there was a lot of it) then you might want to teach it that way. I have DD underline the nouns and circle the verbs, or pay attention to how one of the words contains a spelling rule or phonogram.

 

I've gotten better about this lately but need to do it more. Thank you.

 

I am wondering if Megawords is okay with no former spelling programs?

 

I have Book 1 here and I think it would be doable, but I will look in to that possibility more carefully.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I have Book 1 here and I think it would be doable, but I will look in to that possibility more carefully.

I asked because I have wondered the same thing for my DD. I decided to reinforce phonics instead.:)

[J'etudie]

I asked because I have wondered the same thing for my DD. I decided to reinforce phonics instead. :)

 

I like Megawords because it seems to teach a lot of phonics stuff (including the syllabication we'll need for CW Aesop!) that we didn't do formally before.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Yeah, we have an interesting phonics situation here. Older boys learned maybe half of the phonograms explicitly, and then were fluent readers. I didn't want to do a formal program with them because neither one was 4 years old yet. So I have the AAS tiles and am slowly going through them with newly reading dd and hoping to just be sure the boys know them, too. I like Megawords because it seems to teach a lot of phonics stuff (including the syllabication we'll need for CW Aesop!) that we didn't do formally before.

Oh cool! Now you have me wanting to look at it again. Not that I like curriculum shopping. :D

[PeterPan]

I had seen there was a thread on someone vowing to become more rigorous, but I didn't read it. Are you sure that's your goal? I mean it's not a stated goal of WTM, is it? (Wow, guess I should read more carefully, lol.) Is it YOUR goal? Your family's? I'm serious here, because it's very easy to get swept up in board momentum and not really consider what you need, till you look back years later and wonder why you were doing something...

 

My goal is to do what she is capable of in balance with what is pleasurable, what is profitable, and what is most worthwhile for the age. Some kids are more capable than others, and rigorous to one is unchallenging or uncharacter forming to the next. I'm much more concerned with how her workload builds her character than with how it matched someone's standards of rigor. Have you seen SWB's daily checklists for her kids? They were on her blog at one point. Rather than the long lists of zillions of things popular here, they were short, to the point, efficient little bullets of work that left time for reading and hard work on the farm. Is that rigor? Does it meet the high standards mystically circulating here????

 

I wouldn't guilt-trip yourself with more burden than you need to bear. If you want a list of content to be rigorous and uphold yourself to, I suppose. If you want a list of skills to work through as your dc is capable, all the better. But I wouldn't worry about how you compare to somebody's list. Do what your dc is capable of. Do more if they need more. Make sure you still have time for joy and a life. At that point you have the right balance, in spite of the books. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

Elizabeth, you are awesome. :grouphug:

 

I agree that a lot of posts on here are way more rigorous than TWTM. I would love to see that checklist of Susan's.

[J'etudie]

I had seen there was a thread on someone vowing to become more rigorous, but I didn't read it. Are you sure that's your goal?

 

No, I'm not sure. But I couldn't even tell where I was on the spectrum. Does that make any sense?

 

My goal is to do what she is capable of in balance with what is pleasurable, what is profitable, and what is most worthwhile for the age.

 

I'll print this and post it on my computer. :D

 

Thanks for the advice.

[lovemykids]

I had seen there was a thread on someone vowing to become more rigorous, but I didn't read it. Are you sure that's your goal? I mean it's not a stated goal of WTM, is it? (Wow, guess I should read more carefully, lol.) Is it YOUR goal? Your family's? I'm serious here, because it's very easy to get swept up in board momentum and not really consider what you need, till you look back years later and wonder why you were doing something...

 

My goal is to do what she is capable of in balance with what is pleasurable, what is profitable, and what is most worthwhile for the age. Some kids are more capable than others, and rigorous to one is unchallenging or uncharacter forming to the next. I'm much more concerned with how her workload builds her character than with how it matched someone's standards of rigor. Have you seen SWB's daily checklists for her kids? They were on her blog at one point. Rather than the long lists of zillions of things popular here, they were short, to the point, efficient little bullets of work that left time for reading and hard work on the farm. Is that rigor? Does it meet the high standards mystically circulating here????

 

I wouldn't guilt-trip yourself with more burden than you need to bear. If you want a list of content to be rigorous and uphold yourself to, I suppose. If you want a list of skills to work through as your dc is capable, all the better. But I wouldn't worry about how you compare to somebody's list. Do what your dc is capable of. Do more if they need more. Make sure you still have time for joy and a life. At that point you have the right balance, in spite of the books. :)

:iagree:

 

I agree, and it’s sometimes hard to find that balance. We need to teach each child to their full potential, without robbing them of the joy of learning. Somehow through this juggling act we also need to remember to stop and smell the roses. We need to be firm when it’s needed, but relax and enjoy our children while they are young. They grow up so fast. :glare:

[PeterPan]

I don't know if you've done this, but you might want to sit down with your dh and make a list of your GOALS in homeschooling. You have long-term goals (your over-arching plan, where you're headed, what you're trying to achieve as a product), and then you have your year goals. For instance, my goal this year is to survive with love. I don't know if that makes sense, but peace and relationships are a lot more important this year (we're going through puberty stuff) than academics. So if I got totally swept up in some list, I'd miss the whole point. I know my overall goals for K-12. I see where the skills are going. You toss some of the content (those long lists that make the approach look rigorous) and pare it down to a few subjects and key skills. It's the SKILLS that really make something good preparation. Content subjects are a foil to teach the skills. Don't confuse those two things. If you are slow and steady with your skills and just keep working on them, eventually you can get to the content. If you don't nail the skills, you won't nail the content and you're going to have to remediate later.

 

I don't see where your list of materials is so radically different from the norm around here. There's no latin, but oh well. We did 2 1/2 years of latin, and while *I* would love to get back to it, it's just not reality right now. Surviving age 10 peaceably is more important. The character formed through reasonable expectations and implementation is more important. If you hang out on the board long enough, you'll find the people who did those things (latin, whatever), because they were the "thing" to do and then looked back and realized it didn't fit their dc and that they should have dropped them long ago. You just don't hear that in the "I'm new to the board, just read WTM, and oh my I've got to revamp the world and make everyone do 4 times as much work" threads. ;)

 

Don't let the worry posts on the board shake you. Figure out your plan, what's best for your family, and do it. When I read WTM, I come away inspired, not horrified. Read WTM and find one or two things that inspire you in ways to improve your time. You might realize you can use your content subjects (like TOG) and integrate a couple more skills (outlining, whatever). I guess you could call that increasing rigor, but to me it's just getting inspired on how to teach. WTM is great for that. But use it as a buffet, picking one or two things at a time that can work for you and integrating them.

[PeterPan]

:iagree:

 

I agree, and it’s sometimes hard to find that balance. We need to teach each child to their full potential, without robbing them of the joy of learning. Somehow through this juggling act we also need to remember to stop and smell the roses. We need to be firm when it’s needed, but relax and enjoy our children while they are young. They grow up so fast. :glare:

 

Amen! That's part of my lesson this year, to know when to relax. I have no trouble driving hard. (I have a very hyper-focusing personality.) I just have to see when it's ok to relax and know you'll still get to where you need to be. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Amen! That's part of my lesson this year, to know when to relax. I have no trouble driving hard. (I have a very hyper-focusing personality.) I just have to see when it's ok to relax and know you'll still get to where you need to be. :)

Hehe, your personality is the total opposite of mine. I would be a great sloth.:tongue_smilie:I get my laid back personality from my dad.

[knit247]

...Can I respectfully suggest that you try to avoid equating LEARNING with OUTPUT? Sure, the words and pictures committed to paper might not amount to much, but your son has learnt a heck of a lot more than that. All the listening and talking is learning too. Even complaining and dawdling over things, he is learning a lesson about it sometimes being necessary or appropriate to do things that we don't enjoy doing! (Although you might want to explore some ways of motivating him to dawdle a bit less.)

 

TY for that post! I needed to see that this morning!

[J'etudie]

Amen! That's part of my lesson this year, to know when to relax. I have no trouble driving hard. (I have a very hyper-focusing personality.)

 

This is me, too, so I have always focused on not letting my personality push the academic train. Honestly, that's why I stayed away from this board for a long time. I've read WTM and enjoyed it, but I know some of it isn't for us, especially in the younger years.

 

I've learned a lot here and found some great programs that I think will benefit my dc, but I need to focus on building the foundation and not be distracted by other things.

[J'etudie]

Think about what happens when you read aloud. Do you stop to ask "what comes next" and discuss plot (that was a surprise, why all that blood and gore, etc.). Do you stop & ask the meaning of words & talk about how to figure it out from context or get out a dictionary, break down a word for roots, etc. Do you pick out similes & metaphors...7yo can identify them. Or if you're struck by an especially good description or explanation, do you mention how the author does it. These are all part of the learning process.

 

Yes, we do this. Not too much because I mostly want him to soak up the language right now, but I used to be an English teacher so I can't help myself at times. :001_smile:

 

I am using WWE with my 6yo and we get *frustrated* by the tidbits of the story we get. She has now asked that I read her some of the books as a whole. OK, something else to add to my list...good that she asked, right? I think that might be some of your son's frustration, and he's already doing other copywork. WWE is designed to figure it out for you, and it may be that you already have it figured out. Overkill? Maybe.

 

WWE has been great for teaching him to summarize and to listen to detail. Previously he would just tell me everything that happened. We have enjoyed the exposure to new stories, too. More ideas for books to check out at the library! I tend to think of his regular copywork as handwriting, spelling, and grammar and WWE for composition. I generally do a shorter copywork sentence on the days WWE has copywork, too.

 

We do two maths, too - MUS and Singapore, kind of bouncing back & forth depending on which one is feeling "hard" and which is feeling easy; some days we do a bit of both and some days more of just one.

 

This is where we are now, too. He was slogged down in the last half of Beta. I think Singapore is more his style, but I'll probably keep MUS for skills review and the DVDs!! My kids watch those for fun and it cements a lot of info for them.

 

I am all the way impressed that you are doing TWO foreign languages. We are just doing Song School Latin and dd loves it.

 

I like slow, gentle introductions to things so that's why we started both. I'd like the dc to be conversant in Spanish; it's the one thing I plan to have computer-based. That will make it fun for them (they don't use the computer for anything) and take it off my plate! And Latin, well, I fell in love with Latin after reading Drew Campbell's 10 (?) reasons to teach Latin. I don't want to teach years of spelling, years of grammar, years of vocabulary, etc., etc. I like rolling much of it up into one and getting Latin to boot! I'm using Great Latin Adventure for myself right now and really enjoy it...when I find the time. :lol:

[J'etudie]

Thank you, everyone, for the responses. When I evaluate our lesson time, I think I'll stop asking myself, "Is it rigorous?" and ask instead, "Does it build a good foundation?" You've given me the perspective I needed.

[PeterPan]

Well I hate to say this, but I think you may need to rethink your position on grammar, etc. It's NORMAL to have to repeat stuff. Nobody remembers stuff they go through the first time, not even adults. You have to repeat stuff over and over with kids, whether it's discipline or math facts or whatever. You can be more efficient. You can find ways to integrate that review into other subjects. But ultimately, you HAVE to review and teach things over and over and use it over and over if you want it to stick. Ask people around here. Find the threads about people who waited on grammar and regretted it. Find the threads of moms saying they've taught it 20 times and why isn't it sticking... It's normal to have to teach and reteach. Nuts, think puberty hits and everything they knew before goes out the window and has to come back in a new way or get refiled, lol.

 

The WTM and people on this board are not about being mean or instigating 20 years of drill and kill, lol. Most people on this board shake things up, doing contextualized grammar, lighter some years, heavier others, and are very sensitive to child development. Little children LIKE memorizing, so it's no trouble at all to spend 10 or 15 minutes doing it, whether it's memorizing grammar or latin declensions or whatever. It's FUN at that age! I don't know why someone would think WTM would be un-fun at young ages. It's certainly not at our house, nor I doubt at others.

 

WTM is sort of the opposite. WTM is about letting your kids HAVE fun and HAVE access to all the knowledge out there, rather than bottling them up and saying only kids in x-grade get to know that. Regular curricula hold them back on phonics and say only 3rd graders should know that phonogram or spelling. There's no need for that. Regular curriculum makes people think they hate grammar (and most people do), because it holds them back, waits till their brains are confirmed in a pattern, then lops it on them and makes it seem hard. But if you introduce it gently, PLAY with the concepts (which is essentially what FLL is), and get them so used to it that it's ordinary, just like drinking water or anything else, where's the harm? It's FUN for them! Kids like knowing, like learning, like memorizing.

 

Well enough of that. I guess what some people call rigor, WTM just intends to be kid-appropriate fun. Pudewa has a good quote about that, something to the effect that kids LIKE doing what they can do and enjoy doing what they can do well. Think about that. If you start early, keep it fun and gentle, and they can do it well, don't you think they enjoy it?

 

Well enough of that. I just think WTM is fun if you let it be. :)

[lovemykids]

Hehe, your personality is the total opposite of mine. I would be a great sloth.:tongue_smilie:I get my laid back personality from my dad.

 

 

A sloth? I seriously doubt it! ;)

[lovemykids]

It's NORMAL to have to repeat stuff. Nobody remembers stuff they go through the first time, not even adults. You have to repeat stuff over and over with kids, whether it's discipline or math facts or whatever. You can be more efficient. You can find ways to integrate that review into other subjects.

The WTM and people on this board are not about being mean or instigating 20 years of drill and kill, lol. Most people on this board shake things up, doing contextualized grammar, lighter some years, heavier others, and are very sensitive to child development. Little children LIKE memorizing, so it's no trouble at all to spend 10 or 15 minutes doing it, whether it's memorizing grammar or latin declensions or whatever.

But if you introduce it gently, PLAY with the concepts (which is essentially what FLL is), and get them so used to it that it's ordinary, just like drinking water or anything else, where's the harm? It's FUN for them! Kids like knowing, like learning, like memorizing.

 

 

Well enough of that. I just think WTM is fun if you let it be. :)

:iagree:

 

Although I still think that FLL is overkill for some children. It depends on the child. Some of the unnecessary repetition can be cut out.

 

I do not think you should bag grammar altogether.

[J'etudie]

:iagree:

 

Although I still think that FLL is overkill for some children. It depends on the child. Some of the unnecessary repetition can be cut out.

 

I do not think you should bag grammar altogether.

 

 

I agree. It's all about balance, isn't it? And that balance is different for each child. Ds knows nouns, verbs, parts of speech, capitalization, end punctuation, etc. either from general talk, Ruth Heller's World of Language books, the FLL audio CD, etc. For ds, a workbook/formal program doesn't seem to be a good fit right now. Of course, I'm always :bigear:!!!

 

Thanks again, everyone!

[Saille]

Ruth Heller's World of Language books

 

Oh, I love these. I met her once, and she was a lovely person. I'm using these with ds8 this year in conjunction with Classical Writing.

 

(Of course, today he's cleaning house. That's the alternative to doing seatwork on homeschooling days if you refuse. OTOH, his beef was that it was a Latin day and not a Greek day. Where could I possibly share that but here?)

 

Don't know if I'm rigorous, but I'm sure stubborn.;)

[J'etudie]

Oh, I love these. I met her once, and she was a lovely person. I'm using these with ds8 this year in conjunction with Classical Writing.

 

Aren't they great?

 

(Of course, today he's cleaning house. That's the alternative to doing seatwork on homeschooling days if you refuse. OTOH, his beef was that it was a Latin day and not a Greek day. Where could I possibly share that but here?)

 

Don't know if I'm rigorous, but I'm sure stubborn.;)

 

I'm stubborn, too, and not surprisingly they all are as well :).

[lovemykids]

"Ruth Heller's World of Language books"

 

 

Oh yes, I love these as well! :thumbup:

[Terabith]

If he reads a lot on his own, then I think he's fine. Do you ever have him read aloud to you? (to check his fluency) And don't forget the many benefits of reading aloud to him/ audio books.

 

Spelling and grammar through copywork are fine at this age, especially if his spelling is coming along. If he's not a decent speller, then you might want to add a spelling program that teaches rules. Mad libs are FUN though, if you want some sneaky grammar. Sounds like you're doing just fine.

[Donna T.]

I think what you are doing looks great. Personally, I wouldn't add anything except some nature study. My 7 year old would have a heart attack over that much copywork in one day. I had to drop WWE. He is only doing his Italics copywork now, straight out of his Italics handwriting book. He does FLL orally. Anymore writing and he is just all tears.