Question for TOG Users - or TWTM

[HSMom2One]

When using the classical model for programs like TOG and TWTM, how do you know when to transition your child from Grammar to Dialectic/Logic stages? And do you just make the jump all together, or in small stages? How exactly did you make the transition?

 

I am currently using UG level for my 5th grader this year, as this is the first year we've used TOG and it seemed like the best plan for us starting out. She is an advanced reader and strong communicator, but I didn't want to jump too far ahead too fast. I am planning to add some pre-logic critical thinking lessons when we move on to the next unit of study though, and I am looking at the Dialectic threads and lessons and using some of the discussion points for her here and there. So far I don't feel that we'll completely jump over there yet, and I've already purchased the books for UG.

 

I'd be very interested in knowing how you made the change and when. Thanks for your input! :bigear:

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[1bassoon]

Hi Lucinda -

 

Good question.

 

I also have a 5th grade dd, and this is her first year doing the Dialectic assignments. She is a good reader, but rather - shall we say - lazy in the work output department. :glare:

 

Honestly, I made the switch up b/c I saw in her a hunger to "know more" than the UG level, and her starting to make some connections and desire to dig deeper into our subjects.

 

She's done only ok with the switch - mostly my fault, I think. At the beginning of the year, I seemed to think she could just read the questions and answer them without much outside help. Not so. I ended up making a chart for her, to write out what pages to read on which day, and am still working on closer supervision for her throughout the week. It doesn't help that she's my middle child, quiet, and is happy to not make waves but just do whatever her little heart pleases, if that makes sense.

 

Hope this helps a little!

[HSMom2One]

:bigear: Surely HeatherH and I aren't the only ones with UG/D transition dc.... Anyone else making this decision about when and how?

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Jane]

Honestly? I just stretch whenever/wherever I think it is appropriate. If they are breezing through the questions at their level, I start asking the harder ones. If the book from one level looks better than the one from another (or is easier to borrow), I use it instead. If a writing assignment from one grade level interests them more than the one recommended for their grade level, I use it.

 

I should note, my children are loving Tapestry of Grace so I'm never dealing with attitudes and I think that's key. If you have a happy child, you are at the right level.

[Rhonda in TX]

I guess technically my 7th grade DS should be in Dialectic, but he has Asperger's, and finds it difficult to look deeper into thing. Also, we're studying Year 4, which deals with some very "big" things, and I'm not sure he's ready for that. Because of this, I'm keeping DD (6th) at UG as well.

 

However, we did do Dialectic literature for the first term. For the second term, we're dealing with WWII, so I decided to scale back to UG for literature, just because it seems so much lighter. I am, however, looking through the history discussion questions for things we can talk about during the week. Nothing written, very laid back.

 

My goal is to have both my 6th and 7th grader in Dialectic by the end of the year.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Leanna Tomlinson]

I am making the transition one thread at a time. My current 12yo is doing UG history and D literature. I have the D history books and I sometimes substitute those readings, but we stick with the UG questions for history.

 

My 12yo ds has confided that he is glad he didn't move up in both subjects. He said, "Lit is harder this year, but I'd be really stressed if history was harder too."

 

We are in a TOG co-op and tend to manage all of our students this way. We move them up a level for history or lit one year, and then the next year in the other subject.

 

When we did year 1, we had an entire class of 8th graders doing Dialectic lit and Rhetoric history. We felt this group needed one class to be more challenging, but did not feel they were ready for Homer. I did introduce some Rhetoric Lit to that class in units 3 & 4 and they were all prepared to jump to Rhetoric level lit the next year.

 

HTH,

Leanna

Edited October 12, 2009 by Leanna
more explanation

[Renaissance Mom]

Stepping up to dialectic from upper grammar should be done when the student is showing "signs" of being ready -- not simply because the student is a strong reader. Three signs have been described to me as: showing outward signs of puberty; tenacious arguing; and noticing bigger connections between events, people, concepts (and then seeing the face light up with an, "Ooooh!").

 

At first, I thought this was a strange set of "signs" but as I saw all 3 of these things appear in my dd almost at the same time, I realized that they're pretty good indicators of their developmental stage. Strong UG readers could probably easily handle the D reading assignments, but they will likely struggle with being able to deal with accountability and thinking questions and with the D discussion scripts.

 

We spent the better part of last year gradually transitioning from UG to D. It was well worth the time it took. When we started school again in August, my dd was handling all-D work easily. I most definitely will not rush any of them. Wait for the "signs."

[WTMindy]

I did it a little differently with both kids. My dd was ready earlier than my son. When she was in 5th grade she was doing dialectic literature and UG history. In 6th grade she did dialectic for both history and lit. My son is in 5th grade now and not ready for dialectic, and I'm not sure what I'll do for next year yet. I think you will start to see a readiness for deeper levels of thinking as you continue on. There are no hard fast rules, and it is best to keep the kid working at the level that is best for them.

[momee]

Great answers you've received and as you can see, it's an individual thing.

 

Having gone through the transition with a boy, then again to transition to rhetoric, slow and easy wins the race!

 

There are quite a few things more to it than just the ability to actually read the words in the dial. or rhet. books. It's a diff level thinking, I'm sure you know. Other workload on top of that increases also when they transition: church history, philosophical discussions, more geography, tougher vocab, all kinds of stuff. With TOG anyway.

 

With my daughter going into dialectic, we're having to move nice and slow because she's as sweet as can be but that's a downfall when she's frustrated cuz' she'll work herself flat out. Plus she'll skim over stuff she doesn't u/stand so it doesn't cause me extra work.

My older son, let's just say he let us know his troubles :001_huh::lol: with workload or questions not being answered or whatever issue of the day he faced. It's been tough for each of them, but in different ways.

 

One thing that might help is to begin asking some of the more general accountability and thinking questions and see how they do. Look over the lit worksheets too for what the dialectics are learning that week in literature. See if they can handle it most weeks then just jump in. Sometimes you have to backtrack because a book is too much emotionally too, especially in year 4.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Renaissance Mom]

Uh huh ... the price of tea in China; whether the sky is blue today; just because you can't read my handwriting, Mom, it doesn't mean that it's spelled incorrectly; I don't care if 29 resources agree with you, Mom, I'm right anyhow!

 

Embrace it -- funnel it into accountability and thinking questions!!!:grouphug:

[HSMom2One]

Stepping up to dialectic from upper grammar should be done when the student is showing "signs" of being ready -- not simply because the student is a strong reader. Three signs have been described to me as: showing outward signs of puberty; tenacious arguing; and noticing bigger connections between events, people, concepts (and then seeing the face light up with an, "Ooooh!").

 

At first, I thought this was a strange set of "signs" but as I saw all 3 of these things appear in my dd almost at the same time, I realized that they're pretty good indicators of their developmental stage. Strong UG readers could probably easily handle the D reading assignments, but they will likely struggle with being able to deal with accountability and thinking questions and with the D discussion scripts.

 

We spent the better part of last year gradually transitioning from UG to D. It was well worth the time it took. When we started school again in August, my dd was handling all-D work easily. I most definitely will not rush any of them. Wait for the "signs."

 

I really like your answer, Renaissance Mom! Thanks for sharing that wisdom. It totally makes sense to me.

 

blessings,

Lucinda

[HSMom2One]

I did it a little differently with both kids. My dd was ready earlier than my son. When she was in 5th grade she was doing dialectic literature and UG history. In 6th grade she did dialectic for both history and lit. My son is in 5th grade now and not ready for dialectic, and I'm not sure what I'll do for next year yet. I think you will start to see a readiness for deeper levels of thinking as you continue on. There are no hard fast rules, and it is best to keep the kid working at the level that is best for them.

 

Ooooh, those are great points! I especially like the point about her showing signs of wanting deeper levels of understanding. I'm noticing the beginning of this already, so I will be paying close attention. And there is such flexibility for us in moving up with either all subjects or some as needed. This is much better to my way of thinking than just moving up everything at the beginning of each year. Heck, we could do that in ps!

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Pretty in Pink]

I agree about watching for the signs mentioned by PPs. We use TOG. I noticed my ds was showing signs of readiness about halfway through a unit, so we finished up that unit at UG level. Then, I ordered the next unit, across the board, at D level.

[johnandtinagilbert]

We've made that switch completely with 2 ds and are in the process with dd. I agree with those signs mentioned, btw! Nicely put!

 

Referring to TOG only:

 

I started by assigning the reading first, without the questions. I wanted her to get used to the jump in difficulty and pure amount of reading. There really is a leap between levels. I'm thinking that was about 3 months starting the end of 5th grade.

 

After she was comfy in her new reading responsibilities, I have added a few questions. Her older brothers have more work than her now, for example, this week she has 2 accountability questions, while they have 5. I also increased her projects load by not only giving her individual projects, but including her in group projects with her older brothers. After these few months of guidance, I am seeing the lightbulb pop up for the Big Picture connections. I think that was more my lack of explanation, than her ability to understand. I really had to say, "These are the connections you should make each week'" and explain them in a very UG way. She was then able to paste them together and present them in a D fashion.

 

I have kept her Writing Aids assignments to grade level.

 

We use a logic program that is progressive.

 

I added Latin in 5th grade b/c she is an excellent grammar student and we use the Latin Road, so it was time in their rotation. She bucked a bit last year, but was fine by January. She's kinda lazy since she began puberty (to be honest). She likes when things are easy and whines when she has to put forth effort. I miss my non-pubescent little girl who was ever so compliant.

 

I remember my boys just seemed to show understanding. I didn't have to explain so much to them, they just got it. That's when I knew they were in the D stage.

 

HTH :)