dymphna57 Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 After the Lisbon Treaty is passed by me fellow Irish, we will be all one big totalitarian state. ( Even if the vote Friday goes against it there is no reason to think Big Bad Brussels will accept a defeat after pouring millions into the yes campaign and refusing to accept a valid vote last year) Just thought I might like to know who the other criminals are before the big clampdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 We're in Switzerland and things seem to be getting worse and worse in most cantons even though we don't have to legally submit to Brussels yet....there are some cantons that are not so bad yet... Best, Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I am European but don't see things quite as you do. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I'm not European and not familiar with the Treaty in question. A brief internet search gave me way too much info, and not what I was looking for. In the midst of all the proposed changes, is there anything that would impact European homeschooling laws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 In the midst of all the proposed changes, is there anything that would impact European homeschooling laws? Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 say that I know specifically about each and every European country, but it seems to be that in more and more countries, more and more homeschoolers are having problems...The Badman report in England was probably the latest blow. I think England was seen as the most open place, with the most homeschoolers (don't know about Scotland - does it have the same laws as England? I think Wales has separate laws but could be wrong...). France has gotten worse. Sweden has gotten worse. Switzerland (not in the EU but on the continent) has gotten worse in some cantons (with requirements of a teaching certificate). Germany seems impossible though I hear of underground hs's. I do not know of anything on the table in Brussels at this point, but if the English fall, it seems like we all will eventually - it is just a matter of time. Laura, I know families in various countries who are hiding from the law already, which makes them almost criminals, right (even if not yet charged and tried, they could be)? I'm interested in hearing why you don't think it is getting worse for homeschoolers in Europe (clampdown).....or were you disagreeing about the totalitarian state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Laura, I know families in various countries who are hiding from the law already, which makes them almost criminals, right (even if not yet charged and tried, they could be)? I'm interested in hearing why you don't think it is getting worse for homeschoolers in Europe (clampdown).....or were you disagreeing about the totalitarian state? Scotland does, in fact, have more liberal HE laws than those proposed in the Badman report. My MP has gained reassurance for me that (at least for the moment) Badman will have no influence here. He has also signed a protest to Badman at my urging, and I've added my feedback to the government process for considering Badman. So I'm quite on top of that. I'm just not sure about this 'totalitarian' description. I do think that the Irish referendum was managed shamefully. However, I'm not convinced that the Lisbon treaty is as devastating as some believe. The HE issue is separate. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Scotland does, in fact, have more liberal HE laws than those proposed in the Badman report. My MP has gained reassurance for me that (at least for the moment) Badman will have no influence here. He has also signed a protest to Badman at my urging, and I've added my feedback to the government process for considering Badman. So I'm quite on top of that. I'm just not sure about this 'totalitarian' description. I do think that the Irish referendum was managed shamefully. However, I'm not convinced that the Lisbon treaty is as devastating as some believe. The HE issue is separate. Laura That's great that you have access to your MP. I haven't studied enough politics to know what "totalitarian" would really mean. But I do think the German situation is fairly fascist in relation to HE and parental rights. So I just read on Wikipedia about fascism and find that "many fascist movements support the creation of a totalitarian state". Probably things would not go that far due to radical differences between some of the major players. But would they unite about HE and parental rights against "free thinkers" - happy to be able to agree about something? I'm guessing that is the thread starter's concern (and mine too for future generations). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 The HE issue is separate. Yes, that was me. I was asking if the Lisbon treaty was condoning or not the general trend we see in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dymphna57 Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 Ireland had a great constitution that really protected the indiviguals rights which was why we had to given a referendum, Irish law prevented our incompetent government from just handing the country over.( I am not ranting when i call them incompetent, both sides of the political spectrum agree after the last two years of scandals. ) In short the eurocrats in Brussels have wanted Europe to be more united, with one president and more extensive powers. I have yet to find any evidence that this was at all reflected in the popular vote. Most people were hoping that they would act as they were elected to act, to streamline economic problems that the many different bordering countries faced when trying to market and trade their goods. I know that to some it is impossible for a liberal government to be bad, but I think that absolute power isn't a healthy thing for a government to have. I might feel better if this government was going to be elected by the people . It isn't. Can you tell I am really a displaced American? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friederike in Persia Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Don't you think that's over the top? Have you ever lived in a totalitarian/facist country? I have and it WAS NOT post war Germany. By the way, if you hs in Germany you're not a sort of criminal, you clearly do break the law, which would make you an out right criminal, if you define criminal as somebody who breaks the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) Don't you think that's over the top? Have you ever lived in a totalitarian/facist country? I have and it WAS NOT post war Germany. By the way, if you hs in Germany you're not a sort of criminal, you clearly do break the law, which would make you an out right criminal, if you define criminal as somebody who breaks the law. You know, I always wonder the same thing. My sister lived in the Soviet Union (eg: before the break-up). I have lived in two Socialist countries. I am always appalled when people confuse the two. I'm not a big fan of Wiki, but it does explain the German model of education, and it goes much further back than Nazism - it goes clear back to the Prussians, in the 1800s. We all have the benefit not only of hindsight, but of generations of compulsory education. Sitting here, at our computers, with the (relative) means to maintain a one income household so that we may educate our children to a pre-university level - as we please - this is simply something that our grandparents and great-grandparents (depending on your age) would never have been able to conceive. Does not every society "buy in" to this idea? No, they don't. Even the United States didn't until 1972. I understand the concern, I really do. I live in an "illegal" country. But I also recognize that millions upon millions of children would never have the opportunity for ANY education w/o compulsory education. And many millions more flat out have no opportunity. We are the lucky ones. And we need to remember that. Edicts or no. a Edited December 31, 2009 by asta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 By the way, if you hs in Germany you're not a sort of criminal, you clearly do break the law, which would make you an out right criminal, if you define criminal as somebody who breaks the law. Technically, if you break the law, it doesn't necessarily make you a criminal. It does make you an outlaw, but not a criminal. For that, you have to commit a crime. Running a red light is breaking the law. It's not a crime. That said, I don't know if homeschooling is a crime in Germany or not. The way I homeschool probably makes me an outlaw in my province. The govt would like me to follow the provincal program to the letter. We don't. But we're not criminals either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Have you ever lived in a totalitarian/facist country? I have and it WAS NOT post war Germany. Dear Friederike, I think you misunderstood my point. I said "fairly" and "in relation to HE and parental rights". That does not imply all aspects of society by any means. So you cannot say, "have I lived in that type of a country". You could ask if I had HE in Germany, which I have not. But I keep reading about people having their children taken away from them because they have started or sometimes just want to, even in absurd kinds of situations where the 15 yo is staying home to prepare for the exams that she failed in school. She was in an institutional type school her whole life. Then she was sent to a foster home, for her parents daring to try to help her. There are so many cases of children being taken away from their parents, and people not being allowed to leave Germany because they want to move to a country where they have the freedom to homeschool. How can the German state think that they own people for the rest of their lives? People flee and leave their homes and their livelihoods, etc. But you must be aware of what is happening. I'm not even relating all of it. I know there are Bundesland which are not as strict, but there are some places where the intolerance is really breaking any human rights. And there are so many stories of families where one member is not German and loses complete rights to see their children and similar. So while the rest of society is functioning as a normal society, it seems to me that many of the German "states" have this view of peoples' children as not belonging to the parents but belonging to the state. This is why I thought it accurate to write what I did. HTH, Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friederike in Persia Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Technically, if you break the law, it doesn't necessarily make you a criminal. It does make you an outlaw, but not a criminal. For that, you have to commit a crime. Running a red light is breaking the law. It's not a crime.. I would probably settle for outlaw then :). What is a crime then, killing somebody? Going off on a tangent, but we've just had an amnesty here in Tajikistan and lots of people got out of prison, like single murderers, all women, everybody who helped at Thernobyl,... I guess only real criminals are left in the prisons right now:001_huh:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friederike in Persia Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Dear Friederike, I think you misunderstood my point. I said "fairly" and "in relation to HE and parental rights". That does not imply all aspects of society by any means. So you cannot say, "have I lived in that type of a country". You could ask if I had HE in Germany, which I have not. But I keep reading about people having their children taken away from them because they have started or sometimes just want to, even in absurd kinds of situations where the 15 yo is staying home to prepare for the exams that she failed in school. She was in an institutional type school her whole life. Then she was sent to a foster home, for her parents daring to try to help her. There are so many cases of children being taken away from their parents, and people not being allowed to leave Germany because they want to move to a country where they have the freedom to homeschool. How can the German state think that they own people for the rest of their lives? People flee and leave their homes and their livelihoods, etc. But you must be aware of what is happening. I'm not even relating all of it. I know there are Bundesland which are not as strict, but there are some places where the intolerance is really breaking any human rights. And there are so many stories of families where one member is not German and loses complete rights to see their children and similar. So while the rest of society is functioning as a normal society, it seems to me that many of the German "states" have this view of peoples' children as not belonging to the parents but belonging to the state. This is why I thought it accurate to write what I did. HTH, Joan Hi Joan, I obviously got somewhat emotional about the word "totalitarian" in conection with my country, which is trying very hard not to be. I should have read your message more thoroughly. Still, don't use that word too hastily! Most countries I'm aware of try to protect their children in some way or other, they just draw the line in different places. To want all children to get an education is not a bad goal at all. I only read what the mass media report on hs issues in Germany, which isn't much. The cases that do hit national papers are usually something like the authorities were bending over backwards to help a family in Bavaria, offered them to move to Austria,.... all sorts of options, but the family insisted to hs in Germany. That's the sort of case that I find annoying. The law of the land is that you're not allowed to hs, then don't! If it's that important to you, lobby for the law to be changed or/and move somewhere else until it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 I would probably settle for outlaw then :). What is a crime then, killing somebody? Killing someone would indeed be a crime. In Canada, the line is drawn clearly, because criminal law is handled by the Federal, and civil law by the provinces. Two complete separate systems. And in Quebec, Civil law is based on Napoleon law from France, but criminal law is from English with the habeus corpus. French laws have you guilty unless proven innocent, and English laws have you innocent unless proven guilty. Talk about a double system! As to what is a crime, it will vary from country to country. Drunk driving with a 0.08 level is a criminal offense. With a criminal file in your name, you can't be admitted in the States (and probably a bunch of other countries). However, drunk driving with 0.05 is illegal, but not criminal. Clear? Naw, I though so ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Killing someone would indeed be a crime. In Canada, the line is drawn clearly, because criminal law is handled by the Federal, and civil law by the provinces. Two complete separate systems. And in Quebec, Civil law is based on Napoleon law from France, but criminal law is from English with the habeus corpus. French laws have you guilty unless proven innocent, and English laws have you innocent unless proven guilty. Talk about a double system! As to what is a crime, it will vary from country to country. Drunk driving with a 0.08 level is a criminal offense. With a criminal file in your name, you can't be admitted in the States (and probably a bunch of other countries). However, drunk driving with 0.05 is illegal, but not criminal. Clear? Naw, I though so ;-) A strange little anecdote: In the US state of Louisiana, civil law is based on Napoleonic code. It is like this nowhere else in the US. a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 In the US state of Louisiana, civil law is based on Napoleonic code. It is like this nowhere else in the US. I didn't know that, but it would make sense, historically speaking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The cases that do hit national papers are usually something like the authorities were bending over backwards to help a family in Bavaria, offered them to move to Austria,.... all sorts of options, but the family insisted to hs in Germany. That's the sort of case that I find annoying. The law of the land is that you're not allowed to hs, then don't! If it's that important to you, lobby for the law to be changed or/and move somewhere else until it is. Hi Friederike, Interesting about the family in Bavaria, but there is another case where a family moved to Austria in order to hs legally and somehow, I don't know which state in Germany it was, they were forced to move back to Germany where they would not be allowed to HS. That is scary to me. Then there is the fact that the German government produces educational materials for German citizens to use to school their children when they move abroad, but does not allow foreign families who are staying in Germany for only a couple of years to continue homeschooling their children so that they will not be behind when they return to their home country. There seems to be a serious double standard there...and it is against the free movement of people in the European Union. I tend to agree about working to change laws. The problem is that at least in one state, there was talk, I don't know if it became law, that even to think about homeschooling meant that you were psychologically ill and therefore incapable of being a parent and your children could be taken. So to work to change the law, you would not be able to have children at the time, or would have to have them already grown. Most people don't realize how important children are until they have them and lose energy to help others when their own are grown. I'm very thankful that the canton of Zurich has not gone the way of some of the German states. There are at least 5 families in civil disobedience at this time but their children have not been taken from them. What is odd is that the worse the schools become, the more the gov is fighting to stop other options. I think it is very important psychologically for a country to be able to realistically evaluate a situation to see if it is really a threat to the state or if the diversity will be helpful to the country. In the 1600's people who were persecuted were able to flood to the New World. And think of what the diversity has produced. At the same time, I don't think that the culture of a country should be taken over by a foreign culture. Yet in diversity, there can be the seeds of survival for a culture. The human race is going through all kinds of experimentation chemically, culturally, economically, etc. Knowing where to draw the line takes great wisdom - and humility. Best, Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friederike in Persia Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 How could the German government force a family to relocate to Germany??? That sounds weird. Anyway, if you want to homeschool your kids, don't move to Germany. Maybe European pressure will change that soon, than so be it. Did I mention that I think the EU is great?! And didn't somebody start this threat cause they didn't like European laws? Just this week I watched a DVD with my girls about the 30 year war and the peace of Westphalen. If Europe works together it has great potential for good ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 (edited) How could the German government force a family to relocate to Germany??? That sounds weird. Here's how it goes....the German family in Germany wants to homeschool. Somehow they are brought to court, this could be at different stages in the homeschool process, ie just beginning, etc. I'm not sure how far along the court process has to be. But at some point, if they emigrate with their children (that means that the children are still in their possession so the court case was not finished), it will be considered illegal abduction. Even if they move to a country where hs is legal, the Germans can go after them and force them to move back and then take their children from them. Like the US went after Polanski. This makes the process of trying to change the German system very difficult. The family goes to court to try to get a new freedom and in the process end up losing their children if the court even begins to decide unfavorably. I don't know how each and every case works and which states are stricter...It doesn't happen in all states. Not all would go that far. This is just to explain how it can happen. If every country becomes like certain states in Germany, there will be no more homeschooling in Europe as people will be too afraid to challenge the law, and I don't think that is a very good thing. Eventually the mentality of clamping down on diversity will have a negative effect on the EU... Edited January 12, 2010 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dymphna57 Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 I have lived here in Ireland for eleven years of the last twenty. There are lots of good reasons I chose this country and one of them was they have a great constitution. It is well written and include things I beleive in like the right to live, and the right of parents to raise their own children. After we were coerced, millions of tax dollars were spent on the yes vote campagin and most people eventually voted yes because of fear tactics including the one where they only count your vote if it is in their favor, that constitution is compromised. The situatiion in Germany is a clear example of the conflict between the state control of education and the Classical model of education to give people the tools to reason and make informed decisions. I truly believe that public education has moved away from the task of passing on the important tools of learning such as grammar, logic and rhetoric to educating public school children to accept information that the government/society wants them to have. The German government states this openly that they the state should be the primary decision makers of what the schools should teach which is why they regulate private as welll as public school education. I guess I just don't agree with textbooks that can be so easily changed when we want to rewrite history or science. I don't agree that the state has a greater interest in the child than the parents do. I am upset that Europe never became the monetary union that the people of Europe wanted but has used its mandate to make indoctrinate those same people to accept a more socialist system. I agree with that old quote that Socialism only works in two places, Heaven where they dont need it and Hell where they already have it. I guess I was angry . I have progressed to depression. Yipee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novafan Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 We're currently living in Vienna, Austria and NOT homeschooling, but we will be moving (back) to Stuttgart, Germany this summer and will start homeschooling again. :) We thought we were headed to Heidelberg, but there has been a change and we're going to Stuttgart. This is a nice treat for us as we've lived in Stuttgart before. Anyone else there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 bill being proposed http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/mar/10031209.html Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 bill being proposed http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/mar/10031209.html Joan That's horrible news! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 there is a list of addresses with some suggestions on this blog... http://www.madeditor.com/2010/03/lets-help-homeschoolers-in-sweden.html Best, Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krissi Posted April 6, 2010 Share Posted April 6, 2010 We do not live in Europe, but visit Switzerland as a family every other summer. We have lived in Switzerland and Germany, but not homeschooling (before kids and kids too little for school). Just wanted to poke my head in here. My heart is for all of you! Praying that freedoms will not be removed in any countries!! We live in US, will be in CH in July! Blessings, Krissi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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