Tap Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Background: Adopted dd2 is going to be dd3yo in 6 weeks. She has auditory and tactile sensory sensitivities. Her bio-mom did some drugs when she was pregnant with her, but we don't know to what extent and exactly which drugs. DD2 is Very smart, has language skills about 6 months ahead of her age level, and processes information at a much higher level. She goes to OT for the sensory issues, and used to go to behavior therapy for her violent tendencies of lashing out. I am having an issue with her and before I head back to behavior therapy, I thought I would look for some insight here first. When ever I tell her do do something she doesn't want to do, she glares at me in the most hateful way, and pretends to hit me or kick me by hitting kicking the air in front of her. She yells "NO" or yells (in a grunt) "UGh" at me. If I tell her to not do something she wants to do, she does the same. Then she will stand her ground and I have to physically move her body myself, with her kicking and screaming. If I try not reacting, she gets louder. If I try her therapy suggestions of redirecting her behaviour into something more appropriate, like jumping instead of kicking (takes the 'hurting someone else out of the equation)...it is avoiding the issue of me needing her to do what I say, when I say it. She probably screams at me 30-40 times a day, and I am running out of suggestions on how to deal with it. It is 100% just defiance. These issues have NOthing to do with her sensory issues. She just wants to do what she wants, when she wants. I understand that that is the nature of a toddler, I can deal with that, but it is the Huge behaviors that go with it, that I need to figure out a way to diffuse. Her behaviors have been seen by her therapist, and they agree it is over the top for a typical 2/3yo. The only thing I have tried lately that seems to be diffusing the situation is talking back to her, like this: If she is stomping and kicking because I asked to her to put her sandals on. I will say "dd2, you look mad. I think you want to say 'I am mad. I don't want to put my shoes on.' Is that what you are saying?" This works well, and often diffuses the screaming situation. But as soon as I say "ds15, needs to go to school. We need to go in the car to take him there. We need shoes on to go in the car"...she starts up again. She absolutely is capable of the task, and she absolutely understands. It isn't about the shoes, it is just an example. For another example: This morning's 3rd battle was when she saw a glue stick on the counter, after she had only eaten two bites of breakfast. She started to get down to do a project instead of eating. I said that she needed to eat first. She started screaming and kicking at me, when I said to eat more breakfast and we would do a craft when it was all gone (just a little cereal that she had picked out). It had nothing to do with the breakfast, it was just that she had decided to do something else, and when I redirected her, she flew into this fit of defiance. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to deal with this at all? I plan to restart behavior therapy, but that will take a month or two to get approved and scheduled and I need to do something now. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabyBre Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Wow. While I haven't experienced this quite so badly, it sounds to me like a serious power struggle. She's probably realized she has some control over you in this way, even if it's just the power to make you frustrated, angry, or whatever your reaction is. Besides her thrashing about in a tantrum, is she physically violent to where if shut in her room she might hurt herself? Strong-minded dd put up the biggest fight to our authority of all our dc when she was about this age and shutting her in her room each and every time (with empathy, rather than anger or frustration) was the most effective for us. She tried every manner of retaliation, from kicking her bedroom door to removing her diaper and rubbing the contents on the walls, (no one ever said parenting was easy!) and we had to remove objects that could have been dangerous, anchor the furniture to the walls, etc. It may sound barbaric, but it was pretty short lived in the whole scheme of things and she was always safe. (And she's an angel now at age 8!) I'm quite sure this may not be the answer in dealing with every child, and I've never dealt with a child who has sensory issues. It's just what worked for us. Check out Love and Logic. www.loveandlogic.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrappyhomeschooler Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I'm not even going to try to make suggestions, just give you a little sympathy. You must be exhausted. My older ds has sensory issues, too, and is also very intelligent, and also screamed non-stop when he didn't get his way at that age. I remember feeling completely defeated at the time, because it seemed that no matter what I did, it didn't make a difference. I had so many people comment to me on how long he could keep up the defiant behavior. He never gave in. He is now 6.5, and although we still have issues sometimes, he is finally able to realize that he will have consequences when his behavior is over the top. Before, he never cared. Now, I can say, "If your behavior doesn't change immediately, you will not play on the computer for a week." or "If you do not stop yelling and talking back, your friend will not be allowed over for a playdate." It has taken a long time to get to this stage, and I'm thankful we've finally arrived here. Take it easy on yourself, and try very hard to not let it under your skin. Easier said than done, right? I know. But it seemed like the more calm I could remain, the less stressful the situation was for both of us (or all of us, depending on who else was around). It will get better, and hopefully the added therapy will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paz Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 My dd is 17, has sensory issues (they are much better now) and sounds very much like your dd at that age. I remember having a difficult time correcting or punishing her for anything. When we said we were going to take something away she would say that she didn't like it any more so that was o.k. I remember when I told her she could not watch t.v. for the day. She loved t.v. but she said in the calmest manner, "That's o.k., Mommy, I don't really like t.v. anymore anyway." What worked best for her was charts and checklists. I would choose 1 or 2 behaviors to work on for a set period of time. I would focus on those behaviors and basically ignore the others if possible. If not I would have been correcting her every moment of the day. We would create a chart and chart when she did those behaviors positively. At the end of the week she got rewards for good behavior. She loved those charts. The only other way I could correct her behavior was dragging her to her room and holding the door shut until she was able to calm down. She also did much better if I was able to give her time to transition from one activity to the next, if it was at all possible. Today she is an amazing teen. She is very self controlled, has great confidence, isn't afraid to stick up for herself but does it in a nice, polite way. No one can convince her to do anything she doesn't want to do but she will listen to reasoned arguments. Not being easily persuaded as a teen, that often comes in handy with peers. A book that I found helpful at the time is Raising Your Spirited Child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdie Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 What worked best for her was charts and checklists. I would choose 1 or 2 behaviors to work on for a set period of time. I would focus on those behaviors and basically ignore the others if possible. If not I would have been correcting her every moment of the day. We would create a chart and chart when she did those behaviors positively. At the end of the week she got rewards for good behavior. She loved those charts. That sounds exactly like the method we used with our youngest which is outlined in the book The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child, by Alan Kazdin, Ph.D. I got the book from our local library and was skeptical that postive reinforcement would help, but it really works. Your dd sounds a lot like my youngest, who was also drug exposed. I am glad your working with your dd now because we didn't find a workable solution until our son was 8. The early years were very difficult. Blessings to you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grace'smom Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I'm not even going to try to make suggestions, just give you a little sympathy. You must be exhausted. My older ds has sensory issues, too, and is also very intelligent, and also screamed non-stop when he didn't get his way at that age. I remember feeling completely defeated at the time, because it seemed that no matter what I did, it didn't make a difference. I had so many people comment to me on how long he could keep up the defiant behavior. He never gave in. He is now 6.5, and although we still have issues sometimes, he is finally able to realize that he will have consequences when his behavior is over the top. Before, he never cared. Now, I can say, "If your behavior doesn't change immediately, you will not play on the computer for a week." or "If you do not stop yelling and talking back, your friend will not be allowed over for a playdate." It has taken a long time to get to this stage, and I'm thankful we've finally arrived here. Take it easy on yourself, and try very hard to not let it under your skin. Easier said than done, right? I know. But it seemed like the more calm I could remain, the less stressful the situation was for both of us (or all of us, depending on who else was around). It will get better, and hopefully the added therapy will help. :iagree: I wish I could send you a nice, calm bath or something over the internet, because you need and deserve one! My daughter has sensory problems and she used to be the same way. Her behavior got much more violent when I tried to "lay down the law" and make her do time outs after hearing from so many family members that we were just bad parents, LOL. Once we started her in OT therapy, with an OT who also happened to know a lot about parenting a child with sensory problems, things got much better. We found that time outs just didn't work for her, and we completely stopped them for a while. Now, a year later, she can do them, but then she couldn't handle it. We did try to stay very calm, and keep our rights to respect at the same time. We might have to put her in her room if she was hitting and say "we can't let you hurt us but when you are able to be safe with us we are right here and love you, etc." One thing I wondered after reading your post is whether the worst behaviors occur during times of transition. That is when my daughter was the absolute WORST. Getting her in the car made me question whether I should put her in day care, because I started thinking anyone in the world would be able to get their kid to get in the car, right? It must just be me? But I have heard from MANY parents of kids with sensory issues that they have those same thoughts from time to time. I agree with the other poster that positive reinforcement, like sticker charts, work very well. My daughter has a sticker chart for one behavior at a time. I believe her first chart was geared toward knowing when to take a break when she was angry. Once she got stickers for speaking in sentences, then saying hello to friends, etc. We had to stop the saying "hello" chart because she was unable to achieve that goal. She has such problems with transitions that trying to get her to say hello is overwhelming to her. But now we're all the way to "please and thank you" and it really has helped a great deal. We'll go back to Hello when we think she is ready. I also agree that Raising Your Spirited Child is an excellent book and the pages are well worn at my house. Do you think your daughter might do well with a strict routine so that transitions might be easier for her? Or maybe a twenty minute count down? (warnings at 5 minute intervals) I have a chart of the week with pictures of the people she will being seeing each day, and at night before bed I review what will happen the next day. Oh, and there were many times I just put my daughter in the car and got her shoes on her when we arrived, or brushed her hair while she was strapped in and couldn't fight me, LOL. As far as parenting advice those are the only things I can come up with... It sounds like you are doing everything possible already. But kids with these sensory issues often feel overwhelmed and out of control, so they seek control over many situations. If your daughter got a sense that violence and defiance gives her some control, she will probably try to use that as much as she can- my daughter did. And I really don't know how we got her to stop, I can only remember the completely overwhelmed feeling that I had just trying to deal with it. So I definitely feel for you and wish you didn't have to go through it. :grouphug: If you do find something that works for you don't worry about what other people say about it. We got all kinds of flack from our family when we stopped doing time outs, but that is what she needed and it worked for us. You might find something that works for you and seems to help. Follow your instincts and your love for your child. Remember that you are the parent she was meant to have, and she is yours for a reason. Many parents couldn't do what you do, and do with love... She is lucky to have you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 Thanks for the encouragement everyone...it is nice to know I'm not alone. :grouphug: Raising Your Spirited Child was a huge guiding influence for my relationship with dd10. Is has been loaned out so many times and is quite worn out, so I may need to buy a new copy! I haven't read it lately, and especially haven't read it with dd2 in my thoughts, so I may need to pick it up again. I have and use some of the parenting skills I learned from it but a refresher is a great idea. We use a lot of the ideas from The Out of Sync Child and TOSC Has Fun. I think I have focused so much on her sensory issues I forget that sometimes just plain-ole-parenting-advice is what I need. :001_smile: I like the reward sticker chart idea! It wouldn't have occurred to me to try with a 2yo, but she thinks at a much higher level so I definitely feel it may work for her. I can't loose anything by trying, so I will put it into effect tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions! Cheryl If anyone else has suggestions, please feel free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Shot Academy Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I don't have any personal experience with your particular circumstances, but here is what I do with my kids when they go through this stage: Practice: my husband makes a FUN game of listening, similar to simon says, "Jump up and down, sit down, stand up, make a funny face," then he plays the come here game he tells them to run somewhere and yells, "come here." He holds his arms out wide and hugs, tickles and thanks them for coming when they do. It took most of our kids a few weeks to be willing to do this consistently. Once he has them doing these things happily, I do them too. If a child won't happily obey while playing and having fun, I don't think they will do it when being asked to do "work". I have had toddlers be defiant while playing fun games for quite a while and I would not even consider challenging them to do a hard task, because I know I would loose! ;) Practice activities that are "hard" for kids. "You seem to be having trouble putting your shoes on, so we are going to practice that later today. I will sit with you and watch you put your shoes on and off 3 times and if you can do it all by yourself you will get to (pick out a treat, play a game, watch TV, whatever.) If it works, then the next day say the same thing, but that you will sit on the stairs and watch her, then the next day, tell her that you will hide around the corner and peek at her . . . Sometimes this step takes a couple days and sometimes it takes a month. I do this for each thing a toddler is having a hard time with. (using the potty, getting into their car seat, sitting happily in the car seat while driving.) Only once a toddler does these things happily, do I expect them to do it independently, under pressure, time, or chaos. Positive rewards: Like pp said you can use a chart, rewards, incentives, praise when she does a task well. Consequences: If she has a bad attitude about putting her shoes on then she needs to practice when she gets back home, before she (eats, plays, watches TV, whatever) I would not allow my toddler to postpone our trip or throw a fit. I would say, "You must need to practice this more. I will do it for you and you can practice when we get home, before you eat lunch." If she got angry and threw a fit, I would pick her up and place her in the car and set the shoes by her. For this age I don't use any negative consequences other than practicing the task. I offer lots of encouragement and sympathy while they are practicing it. "I know it is sssooo hard to get those shoes on, but don't worry, I know you can do it. Yep, you are doing great. Oh, you don't want to practice right now, well, okay, call me when you are ready and i will come back and then we can go have lunch. Oh you don't want me to leave the room? You need to keep trying then and I will watch and see how you do it." It may be really corny, but it works for us. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) I have read many times that positive rewards do not work with adopted children. I know I used to use them years ago and found that to be true, but I'm sorry I can't site my source! What is different with our adoptive children is the intensity and frequency which they do things. Screaming 30 - 40 times per day is far more than the average toddler and you are wise to know that she's more intense than most. What type of therapy are you doing? Does she have an attachment disorder? If so, I'm sure you know that many types of therapy won't work for that, you need someone specialized. Which is why I'm stuck in NH - there aren't many places around that can help. Anyway, have you tried making her "re-do" the situation? With the glue stick, I would make her do the "proper" response until she gets it right. Do this over and over until she gets it right. It will be a lot of work on your part but once she learns that's what she'll have to do, maybe it will tame the beast inside of her. :D Since you didn't have time to do that with the shoes because ds had to get to school, I would have taken her by the hand and said, "Gee, we need to leave now to get ds to school. I'm sorry we don't have time for you to put your shoes on." I remember hearing Kevin Lehman speak on natural consequences and he was having the hardest time getting his kids to school on time. One usually made all of them late. He finally laid down the law and told everyone what time the car would be leaving. One of his kids was still in their pj's and that's how he took that kid to school. He explained what was happening to the teacher, and the kid was on time every day from there on out. Now I don't know if I'd have the nerve and confidence to do THAT, but shoes to sit in a car - that's easy. ;) Have you read any of Nancy Thomas' work? She says to make all the child's antics "dull as dirt." This is what I do. I do not show any emotion when my daughter is trying to push my buttons. I make it sooooooooooooo boring, so OLD, and don't fall for it. Edited September 14, 2009 by Denisemomof4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy in TN Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 :grouphug: Good Job, Mom! My second ds was my defiant child and you are so right to deal with your dd's behavior now. Do not give up. Do give in. When 2nd ds was little, my mom would tell me that I was too hard on him. Now she tells me what a wonderful job I did. The structure and the consistent discipline were so worth it. One thing that I repeated over and over is that it is okay to be angry, but it is not okay to vomit that emotion all over everyone else. I did march him to his room when he was little with the instruction that he could return when he was under control. Then, I would wait for him to come to me. As he grew older, I did have to work through teaching him when to remove himself from a situation and how to behave in situations over which he had no control. However, at 2/3yo, other than briefly stating that anger is okay but this behavior is not, I didn't have conversations with ds about what needed to be done. I just asserted my parental authority and did it. OTOH, I must admit that I picked my battles. I probably wouldn't have worried about shoes. (If wearing shoes is a must, get ballet shoes, sparkly shoes, fun rain boots, cowboy boots, etc. and let her choose even if you don't think it matches her outfit or the weather. My ds liked the Hanna Andersson Moccasins.) Staying at the table was a big deal for me. My mantra was- see a hiney: spank a hiney. I did not tolerate having Helen Keller children running around grabbing food. We sat, ate, cleaned, and then closed the kitchen. Once you pick the battle, stick with it. Enforce the rules with patience, love, and when you can muster it even humor. (Today both my big boys laugh at the phrase see a hiney; spank a hiney.) Do not change or bend the rule. Doing so even once can send you back to square one. HTH- Mandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy in TN Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Have you read any of Nancy Thomas' work? She says to make all the child's antics "dull as dirt." This is what I do. I do not show any emotion when my daughter is trying :iagree:Do not show any emotion during one of her fits. Any emotion positive or negative feeds the behavior, because the child's behavior has had an impact they have on some level gained power in the situation and will then repeat the behavior to try to gain more power. Mandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Looks to me like you are getting some good advice. I'm short on time, so I'm just going to add that one thing that helped with my (previously VERY defiant son) was to offer him choices so that he could feel that he was in control. The trick is to make the choices ones that work for you either way. It's time to put shoes on, would you like to start with the left shoe or the right shoe? You need to eat your breakfast before you start on the project, will you start with your toast or with your banana? Will you eat all of one item before starting on the next, or will you eat one bite of each thing in turn? Or make a pattern? It also helped to distract from the power struggle when he tried to initiate it by turning it into a race or a game. You're going to stand here instead of getting in the car? That's GREAT! That means I can get there FIRST! Zoom. He could not stand to have me "challenge" his power by getting there first when HE was trying to challenge MY power by not getting in the car. It was still a "power" thing, but he got to feel powerful and I got what I wanted. Neither of these things worked every time in every situation, but they were good tools to add to my bag of tricks. I don't know if it helps, but my ds (who was a holy terror when he was that age) is now a very responsible, polite, obedient young man (most of the time) of 12. There is hope! (But yes, it can be a long, hard struggle. His 4yo year was the WORST for us.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KS_ Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 You might check out the book The Explosive Child. My ds had some similar behaviors at that age, and I have been using the system in Transforming the Difficult Child with him since he was almost 5, but we still would run into issues (mainly involving school - he's been close to being sent to public school because of his behavior at home during school). I finally got a copy of The Explosive Child and it really opened my eyes to why we were still having some issues, even with the other system we've been using. The main gist is that some kids have a very low frustration tolerance and very low frustration threshold and their brains just don't function coherently when they pass a certain level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) I have one child who is high intensity and always has been. I have 5 kids total. She is number 4. She's a firecracker. She's going to set the world on fire. Literally, I sometimes fear. LOL Anyway. When she was 2 she was as you describe. I notice that your other two children are older. Since I have an 11 year age spread between my youngest and oldest, I can relate to that as well. A few thoughts. YMMV and all of that. First, the age spread thing is an issue, imo. You've done the toddler work. You were in toddler mode a decade ago. Now, you have compliant, reasonable, logical humans to deal with *and* a toddler. It makes you think, hmmm, I have these kids over here doing what I ask, and this one over here that's insane. So be careful that you are not expecting too much of the little one because you've been lulled into the older kid parent mode too much. Also, on that note, when your older two were little, you weren't dragging them to siblings activities. Instead, life was about them and their little toddler activities. It can make the younger child seem less compliant because you're actually asking more of her than you did of your elder children. And, one more. Now, you are not the only one witnessing insane toddler behavior, but your older kids are too. If your older children are like mine, they don't waste any time letting you know that their younger sibling is a monster. Now, you have to keep in mind that the older sibs are kids themselves and they really don't understand (or care!) about how toddlers relate to the world. They just see the younger sib as a pain cramping their style or causing trouble for Mom. When the older kids were younger, you didn't have the peanut gallery around, which may have made things seem easier. So enough about the older kids. I deal with my high intensity child with tons of love and very little attention to her drama. When she goes into fit mode, which is increasingly rare, I ignore her. When she's calm, I love her up. I cuddle her, read to her, make cookies, and make sure she's getting enough exercise to release some of her intensity. This works well at 4. When she was 2, I was in survival mode. 2 year olds just aren't rational. You can't threaten them. You can't bargain. You can't talk them out of their insanity. You can't love them through it. Nothin'. All you can do is wait it out and keep them safe. If my 2 year old was refusing to do something, I'd just do it for them. In the case of the shoes, I'd put them on the child or carry the child to the car in one arm and the shoes in the other. I wouldn't discuss it or ask twice. "Put on your shoes. We have to take brother." The tantrum wouldn't phase me. We certainly wouldn't discuss it. In the case of breakfast, I wouldn't care if she ate only one bite. Breakfast is over when you get up from the table. The food goes away until the next meal. If you're hungry, too bad. Snack is at 10. I think a 2 year old (even an almost 3) is too young for a reward/sticker chart. They really don't care that much and aren't able to see clear enough cause/effect relationships to have it benefit them that much. 2 is very very young. She's just a big baby. She's acting like a big baby. Baby her. Don't expect her to be reasonable. Don't negotiate with her. When you see her shaking her little fist, realize that *rational* people don't do stuff like that. There is nothing you can do/should do/are able to do to make her more mature. Make her do what you need her to do and save trying to figure her out for when she's a little older. A lot of the responses here just don't seem appropriate for a child this so very young. You can read all the books you want. They won't make her 5. JMHO (And if I sounded preachy, it's only because I've BTDT for the past 4 years and I'm just now pulling out....I wish someone had told me how helpless I really was all that time when I thought I was just doing it wrong with this particular child. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about how my dd used to behave. It was nothing short of depressing. It will get better. You're afraid it won't because she came to you in a unique way. It's OK to be a little afraid, but temper that with some faith that she's just 2 and it's OK for her to still be a baby.:grouphug:) Edited September 14, 2009 by KJB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Well, one day down, and the sticker chart is a wonderful success. We made a large pizza sized, bright yellow sunshine out of paper yesterday, and taped it to her favorite window. We talked about her getting stickers for being happy/good and putting them on the "happy sunshine". It has been really nice to find a way to extend the multitude of 'good job', 'nice work' and other bits of encouragement throughout the day. Whenever we go to place another sticker on her sunshine, we talk about the other stickers and why they went on the sunshine. It is a great way to review her previous successes. This morning the first thing she said as she was getting out of bed was "I'll get more stickers today". It may be a short lived result, as most toddler training tools are, but I will relish any more days of happiness it buys me. :D It may be able to springboard some more ideas for me in the future. Thanks for the suggestions, Tap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Well, one day down, and the sticker chart is a wonderful success. We made a large pizza sized, bright yellow sunshine out of paper yesterday, and taped it to her favorite window. We talked about her getting stickers for being happy/good and putting them on the "happy sunshine". It has been really nice to find a way to extend the multitude of 'good job', 'nice work' and other bits of encouragement throughout the day. Whenever we go to place another sticker on her sunshine, we talk about the other stickers and why they went on the sunshine. It is a great way to review her previous successes. This morning the first thing she said as she was getting out of bed was "I'll get more stickers today". It may be a short lived result, as most toddler training tools are, but I will relish any more days of happiness it buys me. :D It may be able to springboard some more ideas for me in the future. Thanks for the suggestions, Tap Go MAMA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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