Why Classical Conversations and some questions about IEW

[Country Girl]

My husband and I are in the process if deciding if we want to have our children participate in CC (foundations and possibly essentials). I know there are several old threads on this (and I think I've read them all:D) but I'd like to see if there are any new or fresh perspectives that will help us solidify our decision.

 

When my dh looks at the foundations level, he sees it as just memory work...which can easily be done at home (memory work, not necessarily CC's memory work). So, if you have chosen to join a CC group, why? Rather than keeping things simple and just memorizing at home what has compelled you to join with CC for this? If you have thought about CC and decided against it (or did it for awhile and dropped it) , could you explain why?

 

For those who have been a part of Essentials, can you tell me the benefits you have seen from this? Do you really use it as your only Language Arts program or do you still use other things (other than spelling)? Do the writing assignments that the kids have every week correspond to the history sentences that they are learning? If I've been using a different writing program that I like, could I continue with it or would it be too much? If my kids didn't complete the writing assignments with the IEW style but using the info from the program we have been using, would that work?

 

If you have been with CC for awhile, are your kids retaining the info from year to year? I remember somewhere reading that the memory work isn't supposed to be like cramming for a test and then forgetting but memorizing like we memorize the abc's.... forever. Are you finding this to be true?

 

Finally, can someone give me their take on the type of writer IEW produces? I've sat in on a couple of vendor workshops for IEW and listened to a podcast of Andrew Pudewa and still can't quite wrap my brain around the benefits. I get the key word outline, I get that they use this to re-write the material they read, I get that they have a set of "rules" as far as adding adverbs, using different sentence openers, etc. But I've never seen any info on how a student goes from re-writing a source work to writing original papers, with info from several sources, with their own ideas. And as they get to this point, are they still encouraged to follow the checklist or do they ever get to a point where they can just write, in their own style?

 

Thanks!

[PeterPan]

When CC first became popular, it was a big, um, fad around here on the boards. As with all new things, people tried it and either kept it or dumped. It seemed like many people liked it but found the inconvenience not to outweigh the gains. But of course many others stayed with it. You have to ask yourself if what you would gain from it outweighs what you would give up. Once you hit say 4th grade, a whole day, or at least a whole morning, is a primo thing to give up.

 

You'll retain whatever you practice.

 

IEW? You have an advanced dc. Why not try something more in line with the WTM approach and see what happens? IEW will be there as an option to come back to later if things still aren't clicking.

 

There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, and as you go into these upper grades, you can't do it all. You end up having to chose between good things. What it means is that whether you do CC, or whether you approach memory work another way, you're chosing between GOOD options. And in case you can't tell how I came out in this whole deliberation for myself, it was that, as I was not able to involve dd conveniently due to distance, etc., we would have to make do other ways, end of story. It's possible to guilt-trip yourself about lots of things in life, and I decided not to let this be one of them.

Edited May 23, 2009 by OhElizabeth

[Oak Knoll Mom]

When my dh looks at the foundations level, he sees it as just memory work...which can easily be done at home (memory work, not necessarily CC's memory work). So, if you have chosen to join a CC group, why? Rather than keeping things simple and just memorizing at home what has compelled you to join with CC for this?

 

I can answer a few things. We've just recently finished our 3rd year of CC and are eagerly looking forward to starting Cycle One again in the fall.

 

Being in a group provides us with an amazing community of fellow homeschoolers who are striving to provide an academically rigorous education. It also provides us with some external motivation to actually keep up with the memory work--something I really need! Also, CC is more than memory work. The kids learn basic drawing skills and study great artists & composers. They also have the opportunity to do varied art projects and science experiments--the kinds of things that I would probably never take the time to do at home.

 

I've been amazed at what my kids (and I!) have retained and how they use it in their studies and everyday life.

 

And don't stress about the "learning forever" part. There are several parts of CC that are very easy for most kids to retain (like the history songs and Scripture memory song), and there are other things that appear year after year (like math and the timeline), and other things that they are probably going to memorize anyway in their studies at home (some of the English grammar, Science lists, and Latin). Every year I sit down at the beginning of the year and decide what parts of the CC memory work we're going to concentrate on really learning. Now that we're about to start our second trip through, there are things we won't really need to spend much time on and that will allow us to "learn forever" some of the things we didn't pick up the first time around.

 

I can't really speak to you questions about Essentials other than to say that I've decided not to put my kids in it. Take from that what you will. :D

Edited May 24, 2009 by Oak Knoll Mom

[Country Girl]

When CC first became popular, it was a big, um, fad around here on the boards. As with all new things, people tried it and either kept it or dumped. It seemed like many people liked it but found the inconvenience not to outweigh the gains. But of course many others stayed with it. You have to ask yourself if what you would gain from it outweighs what you would give up. Once you hit say 4th grade, a whole day, or at least a whole morning, is a primo thing to give up.

 

You'll retain whatever you practice.

 

IEW? You have an advanced dc. Why not try something more in line with the WTM approach and see what happens? IEW will be there as an option to come back to later if things still aren't clicking.

 

There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, and as you go into these upper grades, you can't do it all. You end up having to chose between good things. What it means is that whether you do CC, or whether you approach memory work another way, you're chosing between GOOD options. And in case you can't tell how I came out in this whole deliberation for myself, it was that, as I was not able to involve dd conveniently due to distance, etc., we would have to make do other ways, end of story. It's possible to guilt-trip yourself about lots of things in life, and I decided not to let this be one of them.

 

Elizabeth,

 

Thanks for your thoughts. I am not really looking for a new writing program, which is why I'm hesitant on the Essentials program. Not to say that IEW is bad (because I really don't know a lot about it), just that I'm not too excited of switching if I don't need to. However, if we were to join CC, it seems like it would make sense to join with the Essentials program too and take advantage of all of the parts being offered.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

I can answer a few things. We've just recently finished our 3rd year of CC and are eagerly looking forward to starting Cycle One again in the fall.

 

Being in a group provides us with an amazing community of fellow homeschoolers who are striving to provide an academically rigorous education. It also provides us with some external motivation to actually keep up with the memory work--something I really need! Also, CC is more than memory work. The kids learn basic drawing skills and study great artists & composers. They also have the opportunity to do varied art project and science experiments--the kinds of things that I would probably never take the time to do at home.

 

I've been amazed at what my kids (and I!) have retained and how they use it in their studies and everyday life.

 

And don't stress about the "learning forever" part. There are several parts of CC that are very easy for most kids to retain (like the history songs and Scripture memory song), and there are other things that appear year after year (like math and the timeline), and other things that they are probably going to memorize anyway in their studies at home (some of the English grammar, Science lists, and Latin). Every year I sit down at the beginning of the year and decide what parts of the CC memory work we're going to concentrate on really learning. Now that we're about to start our second trip through, there are things we won't really need to spend much time on and that will allow us to "learn forever" some of the things we didn't pick up the first time around.

 

I can't really speak to you questions about Essentials other than to say that I've decided not to put my kids in it. Take from that what you will. :D

 

Robin,

 

Thanks for replying. The community of like-minded families is what I see as the big appeal. I'm just having a hard time sorting out in my mind if that benefit outweighs some other things. As dh and I have been discussing this, I think it is becoming clearer that the real benefit of this program would be more for me than the kids.... the fellowship with other moms, the accountability, and the framework to build our studies from.

 

We are praying about it and still trying to figure this all out.

 

Thanks!

[MamaBlessedThrice]

Well, I'll weigh in as one who strongly considered CC and decided against it--even though a number of families in my church are going to CC , and it would provide some of the fellowship that I've been really wanting. Still, I just couldn't talk myself into it. Here's my perspective: When I went to the informational meeting, the thing that really kept bothering me was how the director kept saying that CC "pounds the pegs in on which future learning will hang" and that the students "don't need to understand" what they're memorizing. Understanding comes later, I was repeatedly told, when I asked how they handled having kindergartners and 1st-graders memorizing the names of bones in the skeletal system and Latin verb conjugations. "It's just fun to chant it. If you insist on their understanding what they're memorizing, you can research it at home on your own," I was told.

 

Now I'm completely in favor of laying a foundation of facts during the grammar stage, but not in the absence of any meaningful context. There seem to be two interpretations of classical education (as I see it, and I could be off, but this is what it seems to me): 1) grammar stage is where a foundation of facts is laid in an atmosphere of meaningful experiences and living books, with an emphasis on learning the tools of learning (reading, writing, narration), and 2) grammar stage is chanting and singing facts with an end goal of being able to recite a large body of knowledge without needing to necessarily understand or have a framework for that knowledge. My impression was that CC falls firmly into that second category. You can see, I guess, where my convictions lie (it's the Charlotte Mason admirer in me, I guess!), and I just couldn't stomach having my daughter potentially become a champion "fact-spouter" and along the way come to believe that this is what learning is supposed to be.

 

A more practical concern was my toddler; it just didn't seem fair to him to put him in the childcare room for 3 1/2 hours while I was with my daughter.

 

I ended up doing age-appropriate memory work in the context of what she was already learning about (we'll get to bones and Latin conjugations later when they come up!). I wish we could have the art instruction, but the science experiments, again, wouldn't align with her science sequence. I was sorely attempted--again--to just go ahead and enroll just for the social benefits, but we just can't afford the time and money for something that really doesn't do much for us academically.

[Heather in VA]

Robin,

 

Thanks for replying. The community of like-minded families is what I see as the big appeal. I'm just having a hard time sorting out in my mind if that benefit outweighs some other things. As dh and I have been discussing this, I think it is becoming clearer that the real benefit of this program would be more for me than the kids.... the fellowship with other moms, the accountability, and the framework to build our studies from.

 

We are praying about it and still trying to figure this all out.

 

Thanks!

 

You know - you shouldn't disregard something that benefits you. If you are enriched and uplifted, you will be a better teacher and mom to your kids. So while that doesn't mean you should do CC, I often am sad when I see people say they decided against something because it's primary benefit is for the mom. You are important too.

 

That said, I did CC this year. We did not do Essentials because I am happy with my approach to writing and grammar and didn't care for what I saw there. We will not be doing it next year primarily because we had issues with our particular campus. It was not a reflection of the program itself. Like anything else, its has its good and bad parts. I like the history sentences, although you have to watch for some subtle (and not so subtle) inaccuraces. We found that fun though and those are the details my kids remember best. I like the math memory work. I thought the grammar and Latin memory work was completely useless. Science had some good and some I thought was 'eh -why pick this'.

 

Memory work is a cornerstone for us. So I don't see it as 'just memory work'. It's a key for us, so that was good. I also think that doing Foundations at home is easier if you've done it on a campus for a year so you get a feel for it and your kids develop the habit of doing it. Sure it can be done without a campus but a year of accountability makes it more likely that you'll do it when not in a group than if you just try it on your own.

 

We won't be doing a group next year but I do plan on at least doing the history sentences and math. We do alot of memory work from Living Memory too so I'll see what else we might do. We won't do the science, art, music etc.

 

I just realized how much I was babbling on. I hope this helps some.

 

Heather

[Laurie4b]

 

Finally, can someone give me their take on the type of writer IEW produces? I've sat in on a couple of vendor workshops for IEW and listened to a podcast of Andrew Pudewa and still can't quite wrap my brain around the benefits. I get the key word outline, I get that they use this to re-write the material they read, I get that they have a set of "rules" as far as adding adverbs, using different sentence openers, etc. But I've never seen any info on how a student goes from re-writing a source work to writing original papers, with info from several sources, with their own ideas. And as they get to this point, are they still encouraged to follow the checklist or do they ever get to a point where they can just write, in their own style?

 

Thanks!

 

I can respond about how a student goes from rewriting sourcework to writing original papers. I'll just discuss a research paper from multiple sources. First, they practice taking notes from one source--the encyclopedia. They choose up to 5 topics from the article. (ie if your child is writing about dolphins, they could be "family life", "appearance," "intelligence," "interactions with people." Then for each topic, they choose facts they are interested in or think is important. Instead of 3 key words per sentence (such as when they are retelling fables, etc.), it is 3 key words per "fact" that they want to include in their report. Once the student gets adept at that, they move to combining sources. They start with the encyclopedia, then do topic outlines from other sources. IEW teaches students to then choose one of the topics (covered in more than one source) and choose a combined total of 5-7 facts for that topic, and so on.

 

Yes, they keep the style stuff up forever. We don't use the style part of the program as much as the structure part because I don't like the samples that I read in the IEW material. They are not smooth. I prefer to teach some of the style elements, let dc try them out, but not require them to do a certain number of them per paper--except I do encourage strong verbs as something I require regularly.

[Heather in VA]

Oh and I wanted to add a comment about the 'like-minded' comment. That would be a very nice thing but I found in our group at least I had absolutely nothing in common with these people in goals and homeschool philosophy. Most (not all but most) in our group felt that without a group they could never survive and that CC was a kind of 'saving group'. Very few really understood why they were choosing any particular approach or curriculum. I'll never forget the day someone got up in our opening meeting and presented some information they apparently got from the CC founder. It was about math. Apparently this woman believes that kids should do math every day - 7 days a week - 365 days a year. Not only that but they should never work ahead of their grade level. So say you are in 5th grade. She recommends you do 5th grade of one curriculum. When finished (which of course you will doing math that often) pick the 5th grade of another curriculum and so on for an entire year. Then you can move to 6th grade.

 

So after this presentation, everyone was discussing how to implement this idea. No one was discussing whether or not it was a good idea - just that the CC lady says to do it - so that's what we do. So if you are looking for a 'like-minded' group, try to spend some time with the group to see if you are of like-mind with them. All groups are different so YMMV and of course only you knows what approaches are like-minded for you.

 

Heather

[Another Lynn]

I agree very much with OhE and MamaBlessedThrice - but it took participating in CC for a year for me to figure that out. Then, the next year I did not want to participate, but my oldest really wanted to be back with his friends, so my dh took him but I kept the rest of the kids home (I also had a newborn and this decision made sense for lots of reasons). That year has just ended and so we had to decide whether to find a different co-op that met our needs better or to stick with one contrary to my own educational philosophy, but at least managed smoothly (there is much to be said for a well run co-op where you know what to expect) with great friends. I still disagree with the amount and coverage of memory work (I'd much rather just have them memorize scripture and poetry). As MamaBlessedThrice said, the CM/er in me would like to see them remember something *because* they made connections with it. But our CC has wonderful families and we have some of our best friends there. My oldest ds has made huge improvements in his presentations this last year. And it can accomplish some science experiments and fine arts for us as well. It is a huge sacrifice of time and money for us, but in the end we decided to continue participating. My dh will deploy during the next school year and we will need the support and fellowship of our friends there.

 

We have never participated in Essentials, but it seems like most people either love it or hate it. I had a couple friends try it and leave it to return to R&S or A Beka instead. One of the potential problems seems to be putting kiddos into Essentials too young. The attitude seems to be that it's okay if they don't get it all the first time, they will get it again the next year. What a frustrating and defeating way to approach a subject. I'm sorry I don't have more first hand experience with Essentials to be able to explain why some folks have issues with it.

 

As with any co-op situation there is positive and there is negative. You just have to decide what matters most to you and what you are willing to compromise on.

 

Best wishes as you make your decision!

[SonshineLearner]

I like our CC group. I make the memory work somewhat relevant. I haven't heard the "keep your child at their grade level for math" and I wouldn't choose to do that...if I disagreed.... I like the IEW portion of Essentials best, and choose for our study of Latin to be what we do for Grammar. I really like all of our families:-)

Carrie

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Now I'm completely in favor of laying a foundation of facts during the grammar stage, but not in the absence of any meaningful context. There seem to be two interpretations of classical education (as I see it, and I could be off, but this is what it seems to me): 1) grammar stage is where a foundation of facts is laid in an atmosphere of meaningful experiences and living books, with an emphasis on learning the tools of learning (reading, writing, narration), and 2) grammar stage is chanting and singing facts with an end goal of being able to recite a large body of knowledge without needing to necessarily understand or have a framework for that knowledge. My impression was that CC falls firmly into that second category. You can see, I guess, where my convictions lie (it's the Charlotte Mason admirer in me, I guess!), and I just couldn't stomach having my daughter potentially become a champion "fact-spouter" and along the way come to believe that this is what learning is supposed to be.

 

 

I would be put off, too, with that particular director's explanation. I think a more accurate way to say the same thing would be, "Class time at CC is about memorizing this particular body of knowledge. Please expand on these subjects in your homeschool if that is what you desire! Some families build on CC, others don't. Do what's best for your family!"

 

As far as being able to "stomach" my kids being "fact-spouters," well I just don't have a problem with that. We use the info we learn in CC all the time. If we see, hear, read, or talk about anything we've memorized in CC, I remind them of their CC memory-work. Just tonight we were watching an old TV show and we had the opportunity to sing two history songs and chant part of our timeline in order to put the setting into context. Oh, and my son was taking a math placement test earlier today and used his math memory work to help him with a few things that he hadn't necessarily covered in his math lessons. Just knowing the memory work helped him figure it out. Definitely not meaningless fact spouting here.

 

I know CC isn't for everyone, though.:001_smile:

[Heather in VA]

I would be put off, too, with that particular director's explanation. I think a more accurate way to say the same thing would be, "Class time at CC is about memorizing this particular body of knowledge. Please expand on these subjects in your homeschool if that is what you desire! Some families build on CC, others don't. Do what's best for your family!"

 

As far as being able to "stomach" my kids being "fact-spouters," well I just don't have a problem with that. We use the info we learn in CC all the time. If we see, hear, read, or talk about anything we've memorized in CC, I remind them of their CC memory-work. Just tonight we were watching an old TV show and we had the opportunity to sing two history songs and chant part of our timeline in order to put the setting into context. Oh, and my son was taking a math placement test earlier today and used his math memory work to help him with a few things that he hadn't necessarily covered in his math lessons. Just knowing the memory work helped him figure it out. Definitely not meaningless fact spouting here.

 

I know CC isn't for everyone, though.:001_smile:

 

I completely agree with this. I never felt like it was meaningless fact spouting. If I thought that, we wouldn't be continuing it at home. We use our memory work all the time as well, even my 5 year old. I would have been put off being told 'don't worry if they understand' as well. But also remember, even if your tutor or many of the members of your group believe they should just memorize and not expand beyond that at home, that has no impact on you. Expand away. The program is not designed to do that for you, although many tutors give general information on key things like the history sentences and math formulas (I know I did) but it doesn't mean you can't do it at home.

 

Heather

[Country Girl]

 

I ended up doing age-appropriate memory work in the context of what she was already learning about (we'll get to bones and Latin conjugations later when they come up!). I wish we could have the art instruction, but the science experiments, again, wouldn't align with her science sequence. I was sorely attempted--again--to just go ahead and enroll just for the social benefits, but we just can't afford the time and money for something that really doesn't do much for us academically.

 

This sounds a bit like where I am coming from. Art never happens here and getting it somewhere else would be great. My ds can never get enough science, so even though he'd love the science at CC.... I'd still be doing something else at home. I think it is the social aspect that is really drawing me, and I can't decide if those benefits are enough to outweigh the time.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

You know - you shouldn't disregard something that benefits you. If you are enriched and uplifted, you will be a better teacher and mom to your kids. So while that doesn't mean you should do CC, I often am sad when I see people say they decided against something because it's primary benefit is for the mom. You are important too.[/Quote]

 

Nope, not discounting it. I completely agree with you and so does my husband. It is just that we realized that this is primarily where the benefits come in, not necessarily for my dc.

 

That said, I did CC this year. We did not do Essentials because I am happy with my approach to writing and grammar and didn't care for what I saw there. We will not be doing it next year primarily because we had issues with our particular campus. It was not a reflection of the program itself. Like anything else, its has its good and bad parts. I like the history sentences, although you have to watch for some subtle (and not so subtle) inaccuraces. We found that fun though and those are the details my kids remember best. I like the math memory work. I thought the grammar and Latin memory work was completely useless. Science had some good and some I thought was 'eh -why pick this'.

 

 

Looking at the material, I think I'm feeling the same way some of the material. I think the history and math would be good but the grammar and Latin seems too disconnected. What about the geography? I haven't been able to get a good feel for how that is handled.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

I can respond about how a student goes from rewriting sourcework to writing original papers. I'll just discuss a research paper from multiple sources. First, they practice taking notes from one source--the encyclopedia. They choose up to 5 topics from the article. (ie if your child is writing about dolphins, they could be "family life", "appearance," "intelligence," "interactions with people." Then for each topic, they choose facts they are interested in or think is important. Instead of 3 key words per sentence (such as when they are retelling fables, etc.), it is 3 key words per "fact" that they want to include in their report. Once the student gets adept at that, they move to combining sources. They start with the encyclopedia, then do topic outlines from other sources. IEW teaches students to then choose one of the topics (covered in more than one source) and choose a combined total of 5-7 facts for that topic, and so on.

 

Yes, they keep the style stuff up forever. We don't use the style part of the program as much as the structure part because I don't like the samples that I read in the IEW material. They are not smooth. I prefer to teach some of the style elements, let dc try them out, but not require them to do a certain number of them per paper--except I do encourage strong verbs as something I require regularly.

 

Laurie,

 

Thanks so much for this info. I figured the program must get to this point somehow, it is just that I've never seen it explained. I really appreciate you giving me a look into this. I could definitely see how the structure part could be helpful.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

The attitude seems to be that it's okay if they don't get it all the first time, they will get it again the next year. What a frustrating and defeating way to approach a subject. I'm sorry I don't have more first hand experience with Essentials to be able to explain why some folks have issues with it.

 

This does sound frustrating!

 

As with any co-op situation there is positive and there is negative. You just have to decide what matters most to you and what you are willing to compromise on.

 

Ahh, here lies the problem.... deciding!

 

Best wishes as you make your decision!

 

Thanks, I need it. I appreciate your views and comments. The more info I have to make my decision the better.