My bad, I didn't use high stakes correctly here. High stakes testing has a significant impact on the future of the test taker. Some states have exams that the students must take in order to graduate. Certain standardized tests in the past have dictated how a teacher will be compensated or if they even get to keep their job. Can you please elaborate more on what you mean in the last statement?

This is a step forward if a vast majority of students with 4s and 5s on the exams are underprepared for the next level of classes after the introductory classes. However, there is a slight possibility that it is economically advantageous to colleges to not give credit for AP classes.

Got it, on the first part. Theoretically, I know that everything about homeschooling doesn't need outside validation, but I think realistically for many of us, it is one part of the "validation" process. As a homeschooler, ds could have done only classes at home and not taken any standardized tests, and perhaps gotten into a good college or any college at all, but it's a huge risk, especially if you don't have a significant talent that is demonstrated in some other way. Let's say we have a homeschooled student who has had courses at home that meet the standard level of "college-prep." The student has no standardized test scores. How do you demonstrate to a college that the student has the academic foundation and the skills necessary to do well at their school? I can write an appealing course description, but does anybody read it? The student could write a compelling essay, but those can be bought online. A video interview can be used in place of test scores, but it is similar to a high stakes exam as it's a one shot deal and besides, what if your student is shy? I do recognize that many AP courses as they are taught now, don't teach the knowledge and the skills that they should for something represented as a college-level introductory course. I've experienced the frustration of trying to teach as I like to teach and still stick within the AP parameters. I'll acknowledge that the AP Micro test can be passed with a month or two of intensive study. If not AP, then what? Is there anyway to salvage the concept? I am close to finishing my teaching certification and am having serious second thoughts. Some of the most gifted high school teachers I know, are running for the doors and they are younger than I am. It's depressing. This country is always looking for the magic pill for education instead of simply settling down and doing the painstaking work.

This really makes me heartsick. At our local high school, the choice for students isn't what I had thirty years ago: take the academically solid regular class or being ready to be challenged on a crazy-high level in the AP (only English at that time) or Honors classes. When my older kids went to the local high school, the choices past 10th grade were: AP or remedial. This really puts the average student in a tough bind and while I am not positive, I do think this is a result of marketing the status of AP. While I will defend our use of AP classes because it made living a dream possible, I am all too aware of their shortcomings. The larger picture of the high stakes standardized tests and the control they have on the education of this country is truly terrifying.

This is part of a much larger issue. I was irked to no end to find out that Pearson (massive education publisher) controls teacher certification exams. Standardized testing drives education in this country and content is in the hands of an increasingly smaller number of providers. I'd be happy to do away with AP if there was still a valid, affordable, and effective option for students to earn college credits.

Most of them do and the application of credits varies widely. My son's school's limit is 30, but they gave him 31 as to not break up a block of credit. My guess is that universities' AP policies are reflective of their experiences with them. For example, several of the schools ds toured (already accepted) took AP English Language as an elective credit, but students could not waive a writing requirement or more often, freshman seminar. Many students arrive at college unable to write a coherent academic paper. Instructors in lower level classes were repeatedly having to teach the process. It was a better use of faculty time to create the freshman seminar and work on all of the skills at one time students would need to be successful in that college. At my son's school, the general university requirement is 6 credits of writing. They will allow AP English Lang to fill three of those credits, but the remaining three must be taken on campus. Students who received AP Lang credits are all grouped together for the second writing class. The first thing ds's professor told them was to forget everything they ever learned in AP Lang.! He got a B- in the class. Was this indicative of poor AP instruction? Now, oddly enough, ds is in a field that is writing and research heavy and with dozens of essays and research papers under his belt now, he's never earned lower than an A- on any of them. We also encountered a couple of schools that did not allow for early graduation even if they gave AP credits. I would be curious to know if this is an academic decision made in the students' best interests or a financial reason made in the university's best interest.

I have been thinking a bit more about this move for these particular schools. I recently completed a course for differentiating AP courses for gifted students, which sounds odd, unless you keep in mind that AP courses are designed for the "motivated" student versus the gifted student. I would suspect that these 8 schools have their share of gifted students and that AP was not meeting their needs. Also, as more schools are utilizing APs for a wide range of student abilities, the status of AP as a marketing tool decreases. As I have read through all the negative comments on this thread, I've concluded that ds and I were incredibly fortunate in having both a positive experience and a positive outcome in using AP classes to create challenge.

Sebastian, Do the AP audit, teach the class how you want to, and then let him take the test. One of the most respected teachers in APUSH first flipped his class. Then he joined forces with the AP English teacher to create a combined American Studies class. You know, that weird concept of reading literature from the same period of history that you are studying. His students come to class having accessed the material, he doesn't review it and they go straight into discussion and application. Kind of like homeschooling.? We sent scores after we saw the results. If all goes well, you have the audit in place. To the general readers: Dual enrollment wasn't an easy access or all that affordable for us. I don't regret the nine AP exams and the two additional classes that Sailor Dude took, but didn't take the exam for. 31 credits accepted by his school and graduating in three years. He's never been at an academic disadvantage because he took the APs. That said, even two years ago, several of the schools that he was admitted to, would only take AP as elective credits. Taking AP classes can't be just for the exam; it has to be for a genuine challenge that makes a good foundation for the work still to come. I certainly have issues with the College Board and the way some of the classes are developed (like the history classes), but for some students APs are a viable pathway.

English class and art If I could build my ideal class for 9th graders, I would incorporate The Bible and Its Influence, classical mythology, and a few works of Shakespeare (for us, Shakespeare got covered every year). The Bible, classical mythology, and Shakespeare are the three-legged stool of literature. The Bible and Its in Influence has been used successfully in public high schools and I really like it as a resource. For the OP, her dd may really enjoy all the tie-in's with art and music. For example: Chapter 4 covers "From the Garden to the Tower" - Genesis 3:1-24; 4:1-26; 6:1-9:29; 11:1-9 Review, analysis, and critical thinking questions Art: Adam and Eve (Lucas Cranach the Elder); Expulsion from Eden (Masaccio); Cain Slaying Abel (Peter Paul Ruebens); The Animals Entering the Ark (Jacopo Bassano Literature and Language: poetry of Emily Dickinson, "The Single Hound," The Divine Comedy (9th circle of lower hell); motifs, archetypal character, common plots, antidiluvian, parallelism; read "Young Goodman Brown" and be prepared to discuss how what you read expressed or challenged the biblical account. There are music references, cultural references. It's a resource you can do a lot from. Just another thought.

Hey Lori D.! Question for you. Do you think there is a way to keep the OP's daughter on a somewhat traditional college-ready science path, but still keep her engaged? For example: lots of high schools have gone to doing physics first, but only Algebra-based. As I understand it, physics is the foundation for chemistry and biology. Paul Hewitt's Conceptual Physics text is really good and there are a lot of opportunities for hands-on activities (lab). 9th Grade: Conceptual Physics with lab 10th Grade: Chemistry with Art in Chemistry: Chemistry in Art From Amazon: Art & Chemistry - You could make a really cool class with this and it would be worth at least .5 of a Fine Arts credit. With a reluctant learner or homeschooler, fewer class transitions means less lost time. This allows OP's dd to see how art is tied to science. The chem is a little light, but it should be fine in filling out a requirement. 11th Grade: Biology - let me work on some possible alternative resources 12th Grade: Leave it open, if there is an interest. We did a college-level text for Earth Science. It served as a science case study because it built on everything dd studied in his previous science classes. It brought the knowledge into real-life scenarios as we made it a field studies class where he was out doing and recording. Just some thoughts.

Welcome to the high school years! They can be very rewarding and fun. Kudos to you for wanting more for your students than your own personal experience. I thought I had a decent education to bring to the table when my youngest started high school, but quickly realized that I was as much the student as he was. In high school, your role is not so much the "sage on the stage," but the facilitator and the co-learner. Embrace that role and have fun. Many of us here, didn't know any high school homeschoolers IRL or if we did, the standards were lower, like you have experienced. There is a wealth of information and help to be obtained on this board. Just ask and we will do our best to help you. Honestly, there is no way my son and myself could have grown to the extent we did, without this board.

What are your state requirements for homeschooling? I did try to follow our state's requirements, as well as the local high school's, but if I were to go back, I would simplify it more. Career and life skills credits: The way our local high school deals with this is building the skills into the various disciplines and participating in a career fair. The credit is broken up through the four years. You teach her to write a resume one year in English class. Her senior year, she works on her personal essay for college (if she changes her mind). Perhaps she job shadows in fields that she is interested in. Think of the skills you need to perform in many jobs. Have her create and give presentations in science or social studies. Build meaningful and real-world-related skills. Honestly, a lot of career stuff at the local high school is shoe-horning kids into particular fields because fo the results of a standardized test. Kids change and grow. Be sure to look at some of the amazing skills threads we've had in the past. Lori D will know where they are. (?) Fine arts is another area that can be built into the basic disciplines in order to keep your dd engaged. I want to go back and read what she is interested in again and respond accordingly.

In the beginning of high school, there is a tendency to overload the schedule. We want to build the perfect high school program and not miss anything. I would think about how to fill the "extras" into the basics. If you want to have your child "college-ready" in case she changed her mind about school (which I think is an excellent plan), then think in basic terms: 4 credits of English - (literature, writing, grammar and vocabulary primarily reinforced through literature & writing at this point) 4 credits of science - (try to get physics, chemistry, and biology in - but you can be creative in application) 4 credits of math 4 credits of social sciences - can be history of your chosen flavor (one US to be safe), US Government (0.5 credits), Intro to Economics (0.5 credits), geography 4 credits of modern language - if your dd intends to use her ASL, by all means, continue. My SIL is an interpreter and absolutely loves her job. 1 credit health - basics, nutrition, suicide prevention, relationships (healthy, domestic violence), bullying, online usage, STDs, etc. 1 credit - fine arts (basic literacy) That's 22 credits. Add 2 more for a total of 24 credits and that's more than enough to graduate. Six credits a term is more than enough for you, the instructor, and your student. Get creative in building in the "extras" like technology, the arts, home ec. into your regular classes. A few extra thoughts: As others have already noted: karate is an after-school activity, unless your state requires a PE credit Bible study is something you do as a family for personal enrichment.

This. Obituaries are not written for the titillation of strangers.

This is from a psychiatrist's opinion piece in The New York Times. With regards to our perception that suicide rates are rising or perhaps that the good, old days were better: In 2016, 45,000 Americans took their own lives. However, according to Dr. Friedman, things have been this bad and worse many times in our history. Suicides typically increase in a time of social strife: 17.4 per 100,00 in 1932. The suicide rate last year was 13.7, which is apparently nearly the same as it was a century ago. Suicide was the 10th leading cause of death last year, but the NIH spent more money researching dietary supplements than suicide and suicide prevention, in part due to the stigma still attached to suicide. I think that someone else already quoted the fact that 90% of completed suicides were traceable to a diagnosable mental illness. So Dr. Friedman concludes that at least theoretically that suicides should be preventable if we can deliver the right treatment - and that is a huge "if." "Unfortunately, it’s hard to know which treatments are most effective at preventing suicides because most studies of mental health interventions specifically exclude suicidal subjects. (This is because ethics boards are typically reluctant to allow people at this kind of risk to receive a placebo treatment.) One notable exception is a Johns Hopkins study of a group of Danish patients showing that deaths by suicide were about a quarter lower in people who had six to 10 talk therapy sessions. " Something new I had not heard of was a new app called Therapeutic Evaluative Conditioning that supposedly makes people adverse to suicidal ideation or to self-harm. I think I would want to see some long term studies on that.

Did the other threads on KS and AT link any articles on the rise of suicides? I have found some interesting articles, but didn't want to repeat what was said on other threads. I just flipped through the first pages of both and that was enough for me. Katy, thanks for starting this thread. The aspect around religion as a protective element as has interesting and I appreciate the civility. I am also grateful to those who have shared their own experiences. As the mother of two adult children that have struggled with depression and after having nearly lost one in a suicide attempt, I am always asking "why?"

Darn it, Murphy! I am going to start charging you for the coffee I spit out. You know, I also can't say "the devil made me do it."

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the primary cause for suicide rates going up is due to the waning of Christianity (dominant belief system)? I would need to know about the faith status of those who committed suicide to validate this presumption first, wouldn't I? Do dominant faith systems truly act in a manner that demonstrates that every individual life is in some way indispensable? More importantly, do people always perceive that the dominant faith system values each life? I would argue that "indispensable" places human life on the level of a tool. I am still struggling with the idea that severe human suffering of one person may not serve them, but that may help someone else is a beautiful thing, a good thing. What Carrie said was: When the non-religious state that they find plenty of meaning in life, telling them it can't be as real as yours because it isn't in terms you understand is ludicrous. I understand why you think the meaning of the life that is you experience is more real than mine, but I am not sure that is actually a logical conclusion. How do you know whether others have or don't have a "rational" foundation for their belief system? At one time, all dominant faith systems were the thoughts of one man or a handful of men, regardless of the stories that have grown around them through history. For example, we have various men's testimonies that the word came from God, yet we have no concrete actual proof. It is taken on faith. Is this a rational construct? I think we have to be careful in discussing religion and suicide. Saying that if everyone believed in the redemptive power of God, we would fewer suicides, may not be a true statement. Many practice religion in a way that is unyielding, unkind, and in no way a healthy thing for a mind that struggles for meaning and value. Think of the major message of Christianity - "We are unworthy, but for God's love." "Unworthy" is a word that many of those who are struggling are all too familiar with. Also, think of the language that appears after a natural disaster, " This is God's punishment because we allow same-sex marriage." It's not an uncommon expression. So if you are struggling with self-worth, being told you are responsible for the deaths in Puerto Rico is not exactly an uplifting experience. Bluegoat, I am not telling you I think you are wrong. I am just working out all my own jumbled thoughts at the expense of your time and brain power. Sorry about that.

Bluegoat, I always enjoy your posts. They usually challenge me to think a bit deeper and at the very least, to pull out my dictionary. That said, I doubt my answer, which of course is simply a personal reflection, will answer your question at the intellectual level you are looking for. I agree that for some who are in crises over the value of their own life, a specific language, a set of concepts, a routine practice based in religion can be very helpful. But as many have pointed out here, those same elements, depending on how they are presented and/or interpreted can be soul crushing. For example, I am of a generation that remembers being told that divorced people would go to hell and sitting in a "pro-life" school assembly where a priest told a 15 yo girl that her mother should have chosen death (and willingly leave behind her six kids) instead of having an abortion. If you are LGBTQ, you have been outside the embrace of Christianity and other faiths for much of their existence. Parents who are told their children are an aberration may not find comfort in organized religion.

I have been thinking more about this idea that in increase in teen and young adult suicides is tied to a lack of emotional resilience on their part. We don't let them suffer. My oldest was 9 when the towers came down, old enough to know about the loss, but not really old enough to understand the magnitude and how that tragedy has slowly reshaped the American world into a less trusting, uglier one. Are our young people really that insulated from challenge or pain? In the ten years since my dd was first diagnosed with depression at age 15, she has experienced the suicide of a teacher, the death of a good friend due to a car accident, three suicides involving dear friends in their early 20s, the unexpected death of a beloved swim coach, the murder of a friend and mentor who had two young children, and most recently, the unexpected death of her aunt. At this rate, she should be the strongest person I know if suffering is a crucial factor for resilience. How much inoculation can we do against loss and despair in those who are already dealing with a chemical imbalance? It's easy in some ways to blame social media, but I still maintain that the horrendous commentary that the older generations fill the airwaves with is working to destabilize the feelings of safety and security for many in our society. "Screw political correctness" has been confused with "it's okay to say whatever hateful s*** fills your head that day." Personally, I have been stunned by the level of misogyny on display recently. A cousin who heads a family medical practice says that they are seeing far greater levels of depression since the 2016 election - on both sides of the political spectrum. Our children experience a lot of ugliness and often it is displayed by the adults who are supposed to be in charge and to keep them safe.

My point was more that many, many common medications list suicidal thoughts as a side effect. It is something pharmacists should bring up. Honestly, I would not have expected to see the warning on medication that was supposed to help my dd with depression. Now I know better. Junie, I am so sorry you had to experience that.

Great post, Murphy. I am still out of likes and it's really bugging me on this thread.

I am not sure this answers your question, Rosie, but in the Dweck book I mentioned earlier, part of the major study involved giving kids puzzles of varying degrees of difficulty. Kids who were complimented on their intelligence, tended to give up earlier or resorted to only working on easier puzzles. Kids who were complimented on their effort and persistence, chose to work on more challenging puzzles later in the experiment, they exhibit a growth mindset. I am really simplifying this. Work ethic and persistence are things within our control. When kids are told they are intelligent or talented and they come up against a challenge, those compliments ring false. They feel as though they have run out of talent or intelligence. Does this make sense as one method of teaching emotional resilience? My youngest's swim coach shared every quote he could find from successful athletes and their experiences of failure. When Michael Jordan tells you how many free throws he's missed and how many games he's lost and those numbers are significant, it helps put into perspective how much practice and hard work it takes and not just natural talent.

Very interesting point. Carol Dweck has a helpful book, Mindset: The New Psychology of Success, that basically talks about fostering perseverance and hard work versus complimenting intelligence and talent. Don't let the title turn you off. Dr. Dweck spent 20 years researching the topic and it's insightful for parents, teachers, and coaches.