I don't want to ban guns. I think ranchers should keep their guns. Sport shooting at the range? Fine. Hunting? Fine. What I think I want to see is the reasonable and responsible gun owners say, " We recognize that gun violence is out of hand. Here is what we think can reasonably be done and that we are willing to do to counteract some of the violence." Don't laugh, please. It's a lot different than "Don't touch my effing guns. Dead kids are just the price you all pay for my freedom. Mass shootings are God's will." Why can't gun ownership be handled like car ownership? Yes, I know, car ownership isn't in the Constitution. Why can't the nearly 8 million people with 8-140 guns have a special license with extra precautions. Kind of like getting your commercial driver's license. License, register, background check, no felons or domestic violence folks, and safety classes. Penalties if you are stupid and negligent. I understand that after every mass shooting, gun owners feel like non gun owners want to throw a bunch of legislation at them and non gun owners view gun owners as callous and unfeeling, refusing to concede on anything. Why can't there be a middle ground? I think I am having a Pollyanna day. :tongue_smilie:

Oh Kellly! :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Thank you, your post makes things much clearer and it sounds like the "you" I am used to reading. When I heard about the Turpin situation, I did think about the negative reflection on homeschooling, but didn't really see anything bad about homeschooling in the media about it, but if you have local cases, it makes it so much worse. I get being tired of defending homeschooling. I was very isolated IRL as a secular homeschooler, especially for highschool. This board was my lifeline. It was wonderful to meet my first boardie, IRL, the fabulous Nicole M. My parents were very against my homeschooling Sailor Dude and kept asking what was wrong with him that he couldn't go to school. They have finally stopped because he is in his second year of college, has a lovely GPA, is on the sailing team , and interned with our state senator. He'll graduate in three years. He's pretty sure not much of this would have happened without homeschooling. I am pretty sure it wouldn't have happened without this board. You have to just run with the fact that you are doing what's best for your children and you. Growing a thick skin has been the most difficult part of the process for me. You have a lovely family and are an inspiration for all of us.

The only way to do the part in bold is to keep talking to the other side, not just preaching to the choir. OrganicJen said it much more eloquently than I have on both gun threads about the "all or nothing" folks. I agree with you in that passing an ineffective law just to pass a law, is pointless. It is also the equivalent of refusing to do anything. I don't think that someone who shoots twice a year should have to check on the location of their guns every day. However, if you have kids in the house, especially teens, you might want to look a little more often. How or if to legislate that, I don't know. If you are the idiot that left your loaded gun out and your 3rd grader puts it in his backpack, takes it to school, and accidentally drops the bag which sets off the gun, striking a classmate in the abdomen, you should get to go to jail and pay for medical expenses. If you are the guy cleaning his gun in an apartment and the gun goes off accidentally, goes through the wall and strikes another tenant, you are liable. When drivers screw up and have too many tickets or a drunk driving offense, they often have to go take safety classes. Why can't gun owners do the same? I know, these are just small things and they don't get to the root of the violence. You asked earlier if it was as black and white as scarcity being the difference in gun violence in other countries. I think to a certain extent that "fear of the other" does come in to play as well as culture. Switzerland has a lot of guns and the same "don't take my guns attitude" we have, but the culture around guns seems to be quite different. Guns are elevated to a fetish level in this country. There is a lot of emphasis on "sexy," "manly," "powerful," "dangerous," "rebel," "hero," and "patriot." Unfortunately for me, several of the gun owners I know IRL are big, loud-mouthed asshole men who get a charge out of intimidating others. Did I mention, short-fused? Which is why it's good for me to come here and talk to women gun owners. Sorry, Happy. Still thinking out loud. I should probably quit doing that. :tongue_smilie:

:grouphug: I'm sorry, Margaret.

Yet we continuously debate denying women the right to make reproductive choices with their own bodies, sometimes to the point of denying them their own life based on a personal sense of morality. Often these are the very gun owners who don't see a level of morality and personal responsibility in leaving a loaded gun on the nightstand. I don't know. ETA: I appreciate your posts and am not looking for a debate on the above topic. Just sort trying to think it through in reference to your initial point.

Along the lines of this thread, if a university declares on allows carrying on campus and a student is shot by another student, can the university be sued? In this case, a college has chosen to allow students to carry even when a significant portion of the student body spends some time impaired. ETA: I just found out that our state is a mandatory campus carry state. Not sure how I feel about that. That is for concealed carry and campus buildings, but not grounds, are exempted.

Ds is in his second year at his university, but is a junior. Affordable off campus housing can sometimes be difficult to obtain. He was in a dorm last year with two other roommates. The roommates were great. One was from China and the other was a moderate Republican who enjoyed sparring with my moderate Democrat. They have remained friends and still get together. Being on a freshmen dorm floor was my son's biggest complaint with regards to noise level and the frequent 2am fire alarms the administration seemed unable to stop. Over the summer, ds stayed there for an internship and roomed in a two bedroom/2 bathroom apartment with three other guys he didn't know. It was not a great situation and I would caution anyone that is subletting to really check out the legal arrangements. Ds would get home from work, still wearing his suit, only to smell the pot half way down the hall. It's not that Sailor Dude is exactly a saint, but he has boundaries. Having his suits and his room reek of pot all the time, pissed him off. He also figured the neighbors didn't need to know either. His roommate got really drunk one night, took his pants off, and instead of turning left for the bathroom, turned right and peed in the refrigerator. Ds said that was the high point of the summer. He and our Spaniard came back from 3 days in New York to find sticky notes all over the kitchen telling them to clean up the mess, except they hadn't been there. It was the one guy who remained in the apartment during that time. The notes were from his girlfriend. I think it was a relief to return to the dorms this fall although it is a much nicer hall and there are only two of them in the room with their own bathroom. His roommate is very chill and considerate. The pot smoking only happens in the bathroom with a towel across the door and the fan on. Sailor Dude is leaving for his study abroad in Chile during July. He is looking for a more permanent living arrangement off of, but close to campus, and definitely on the Metro. I am not sure how it will work coming back to campus next January. Next year is his senior year and he will be applying for grad school directly after that, which is what is driving the desire for a more permanent home in D.C.

Unfortunately, the crowd who doesn't believe that proper handling/safety procedural training should be a requirement are very vocal and loud. They are the voices we hear (and they are on this board too) and non gun owners are baffled for exactly the reason you listed. Honestly, the implied carelessness makes us want to take all your guns and slap you silly, because we don't trust your judgement. This is why again, I appreciate hearing from the more moderate gun owners.

You sound like the average gun owner - in Switzerland! :D So I have a question for you, if you don't mind. Or it might more accurately be described as an incomplete thought. I'll use homeschooling as my primary example. I was thinking about this after reading BlessedMama's original post on the other gun thread. Sometimes I think that the loudest voices in pro-homeschooling and gun ownership communities are also the most extreme and the most damaging. For most of the public, their impressions about homeschooling unfortunately do come from the abuse cases that show up in the media. For public school teachers, it's the underperforming students who are returned to their classrooms. When homeschoolers do get vocal about homeschooling, they tend to say things that create negative images like, "My kids, my property, my right to keep them away from the government." My impression of homeschoolers prior to my own homeschooling days was that they were a bunch of religious, anti-government nutsos who were protecting their children from the heathens by providing mediocre and incomplete schooling at home. If I hadn't spent eight years here while homeschooling my son, I might very well still believe that. My thought is that the vocal, "all or nothing" crowd who don't want one shred of legislation are the ones that are going to cost American homeschoolers their right to homeschool. If you are still with me, I also believe that the highly-vocal "guns are patriotic, everyone should be armed, every teacher should be armed, and they make my anatomy bigger" crowd that usually also believe that there should be no gun legislation, are going to cost this nation its right to bear arms. Maybe I am daydreaming, but with the escalation is numbers involved in the mass shooting, I think the day is coming where the number of victims and the atrocities are so horrific that even Americans will have had enough. The 68% that don't own guns will look at the 32% that own guns and say it's over. So why aren't the more moderate homeschoolers and gun owners more proactive in developing compromises that address the majority's concerns before it all goes south? Does that make any sense?

One of the first things you are told when you have a family member with suicidal thoughts, is to remove whatever implements that might be a part of their suicide plan. So for instance, pills might be kept in a locked safe. And yes, the persona who is struggling can go to the store and obtain more, but many suicides are an impulse of the day or the moment. Removing guns or medications from the home of a potential suicide or knives and razors for those who self-harm can provide a much-needed buffer. Men often prefer guns and they tend to be more successful. Thankfully, in a horrible moment, my son only had access to a BB gun. Even then, if he had angled it a bit differently, we would have lost him. Yes, he had gun safety training. So did the 16 yo son of dear friends. He was an excellent shot. Maize, I am truly sorry. It is a very difficult road to walk. :grouphug:

Scarcity. Take a significant number of guns out of play and for the average criminal, the one likely to commit a home invasion, the cost becomes too great even on the black market. There is really no good reason for us to own half of the world's guns.

Cat, I do get what you are saying and no, I don't think you are immoral for not running and checking where your guns are every day. Please don't walk away from the conversation, because at least you are trying to have one. I appreciate the time and effort you took to explain why you shoot and how you handle your guns. I don't own a gun and have never even shot one. However, I don't exclude either possibility. For me, guns have their places. I don't participate in gun threads to make anyone crazy or to change anyone's mind, but I do try for a better understanding on my part. I am not always good with responding to posts from the "all or nothing" gun owners without snark. Because I don't have experience with guns, I tend to gravitate towards the gun owners here who are patient and thoughtful with me. They typically explain basics like the role guns play in their lives, how they transport and store them, what they think about gun safety training and licensing, how much ammo is needed, what items are really not necessary. They are seldom in the "all or nothing" crowd. Often they support some types of legislation and can offer thoughtful insights on what they think can work and why other measures may not for practical purposes. They are honest about when weapons might work for protection and when carrying is a vanity issue. They are like one of my favorite posters on these threads who said she didn't often open carry because she didn't want to make others uncomfortable. The "all or nothing" gun owners (or homeschoolers) unfortunately do not serve responsible gun owners or homeschoolers well at all. Nuances are lost, like why non-gun owners might find the idea of living in a totally armed society not particularly appealing. Or why if gun owners aren't required to get gun safety training that requiring all schools to teach gun safety might seem a little gun obsessive and one-sided. If I am really honest, it's the lack of empathy for the shooting victims, especially young ones, that really takes my breath away that is demonstrated regularly by some of our "all or nothing" crowd. "My right to own as many guns as I want and take them anywhere is way, way more important than children's lives."

I am really confused. I read your post in probably the same way SKL did. My first response when I read your initial post was "Kelly's usually pretty on the ball. She truly thinks all kids would be safer and better off homeschooling????" Did I miss something in the translation?

I believe that SKL meant that statistically children are more likely to be harmed in their own home than at school. Statistics aside, do I think a child is more likely to be assaulted or to suffer from a serious accident at home than at school? Unfortunately, yes. Right now, in this country, we have roughly 15 million children who live below the poverty line - about 21% of all school-age children. How do you propose to homeschool them? My friend who is a first grade teacher routinely sends home class books that she has purchased with children who live in homes without books. I have counseled high school students who are on track to be the first in their family to go to college. One of my students didn't have any extra curricular activities because she watched her siblings after school while her mom worked an evening shift. For many kids, the meal provided by the school lunch program is the biggest one they will have all day - maybe the only one. Many families in HCOL areas need two incomes to keep their households going, making homeschooling impractical. Kelly, you've been on this board for a while. Do you remember the conversations on the chat board in 2009 and 2010 during the economic "recovery?" Some of those are seared in my brain. Americans have the idea that if you work hard, live right, life will go well. If it doesn't you've done something wrong. We had so many boardies who lost their jobs, their homes, their insurance, and their retirement or pensions through no fault of their own. It was heart-breaking. For me, it really brought it home why we need some forms of social safety nets. When we as a society vote for policies that in the long-run increase the poverty gap, we vote for increased societal violence. Again, as to everyone homeschooling, I've read this board for nine years and I remember the folks who had serious illnesses and lost a year of their kids' schooling. I remember the parents who want to know what the minimum education looks like so they can graduate their dd from high school as soon as possible, because she is only going to get married and have babies. I remember the parents who decided science education wasn't necessary because they had no experience with the subject. Personally, I am a huge homeschooling advocate, but only when the circumstances are right for both parent and child. My state requires that the parent notify the education district of the intent to homeschool each year and then to take a nationally-normed test four times in 12 years. The nationally-normed test Sailor Dude took was so easy that I could have not taught him a new thing for three years before he would no longer make the cut-off. I think Oregon could actually use a bit more oversight. There are plenty of homeschooling parents along with some public and private schools that could benefit from more oversight.

So if I understand your "general statistics" comments, you are of the camp that considers the number of deaths by gun violence in the U.S. to be insignificant? Out of curiosity, what's a significant number? How many people need to die before gun rights no longer outweigh their right to their own life?

Generally speaking, your point in bold is probably accurate. While researching the comment about the majority of youth gun-related deaths being gang-related (still looking for that one), I came across some other statistics. We tend to think of mass shootings in terms of what happened at the schools or Vegas or the church in Texas. (By the way, shouldn't churches be a safe place? Metal detectors? Armed guards?) Mass shootings are defined as 4 or more victims. Between 2009 and 2016, there were 156 total mass shootings where 4 or more victims were killed by a gun (perp not counted). 54% of those shootings involved a partner or family member. 5 Statistics That Explain the Link Between Domestic Violence and Mass ShootingsWe could discuss the steep price American women pay for unbridled gun ownership in the U.S. American women are 16 times more likely to die from gun violence than women in other developed countries. 45% of America women murdered are killed by their intimate partners (not gun-specific). However, 4.5 million American women report having been threatened by an intimate partner with a gun. No, I am not convinced that having every American child homeschooled would be a safer option.

After the 2008 recession, we knew more than one family that could not afford the medication to treat their teen's depression. Even if you have the financial resources, counselors and treatment centers with open beds are almost non-existent in this country. Do a basic search. There is often a story of parent desperately seeking help for a child who is mentally ill and possibly violent in local and national papers. I don't know if that was the case here Not everyone that commits a mass shooting/ regular shooting is mentally ill, but it is easier for us to understand what happened if we use that classification. However, other countries like Australia and Great Britain also have population that is mentally ill, but don't have the number of mass shootings. There really is no way around, no excuse to make for the level of gun violence in this country, other than the sheer, overwhelming volume of guns and the ease of access. I would agree that before we can change the numbers of guns, we have to change the attitude of a certain group of gun owners. I am old enough to remember cocktail waitressing at a swanky restaurant to pay for college and having old, fat men blow their cigarette smoke in my face and make their "cute" comments. At some point, our attitudes changed in much of the country and non-smokers decided smokers had a right to kill themselves, but not the rest of us in public. My mom remembers the smog being so thick in our city that you could write your name on your car after work. Then we decided that maybe corporations didn't have the right to poison the rest of us for a profit. Attitudes can be changed, but it does take time. Guinevere, you said above that it takes a group effort and to get out and build a community. I am more than willing to do that, but on the other side of the coin, the gun owners who can't give an inch and who throw their hands up in the air saying that no gun control legislation will work and that the only answer is arming everyone, need to get off the Gun god altar and do their part. At some point, the 68% that don't own guns will have had enough of the carnage and I don't think even the NRA will be able to turn that tide. On the side, I've participated in these threads for years and remain grateful to our gun owners who have taken the time to answer my questions and to discuss what responsible gun ownership looks like and what they think are possibly reasonable solutions.

I understand what you are saying, but there is an underlying cultural norm that overwhelms the ideas of community building and getting to know people. We are a terrified people. That is the only conclusion I can come to when 32% of the population says it needs an average of 3 guns per gun owner "for protection". 7.7 million Americans own 8-140 guns a piece. It must be difficult to be that terrified. We own half of the world's guns and we are 5% of the population. It is so much easier to arm yourself to the teeth and pray that no one you know dies from violence than it is to work on creating a better neighborhood, state, or country.

Well, there is that most recent case of 13 "homeschoolers" chained to their beds and starving to death. That is sure to shift someone's viewpoint from the dangers of being in a public school. Of course home is safer. Wait! How many kids die every year in gun-related accidents? Something like 1300? Wonder how many of those accidents happen in the home? But it doesn't really matter, does it? 1300 dead children A YEAR is a small price to pay for freedom, eh?

This statement doesn't even make sense. Public schools in other first world countries are primarily able to keep kids from shooting other kids at school because they exist in cultures with limited access to firearms. This isn't an abuse issue. It isn't a mental health issue. It isn't a matter of irresponsible public schools that don't turn themselves into armed camps. It's a result of living in a society that values guns above human life. It's a result of a society that owns 101 guns per 100 people. It's the result of a society that is so terrified of it's government and of our own neighbors that we must pack significant fire power to "protect" ourselves or our own, or so we tell ourselves. Do you want to discuss the numbers of people "protected" versus the numbers of protection guns used for domestic violence or suicide? You are not really flabbergasted. Lives are very cheap in this country. We tut-tut "tragic" and "I'll pray for them," and head off to the gun show. When people really care, they do something. We don't really care. One more school shooting. One more mall shooting. One more concert or nightclub shooting. BFD.

My 19 yo son has been to Spain twice. He flew on his own (first international flight) during the summer of 2015 to spend a month with our Spanish exchange student. The guys then flew back together so that Diego could spend a month with us. Ds was back there Christmas 2016 for two weeks. He loves Spain except for the heat. I was very worried about that first visit, but several boardies here gave great advice about international travel, insurance, etc. While I wouldn't blink an eye regarding travel to Spain, I am a bit anxious about ds spending five months in Chile for his semester abroad. Congratulations to your daughter! I am sure she will have wonderful time.

We worked with Barbara H. here on the board and her help was invaluable. I thought her rates were reasonable and she did a wonderful job in teasing out of my son a strong essay that reflected who he is. He was accepted to all 8 schools that he applied to and received scholarship offers for all as well. She helped us craft the list.

I don't make it here very often any more, but this post does my heart six ways of good. EL, you rock and it is wonderful to see how far you have come on this journey. :grouphug: :hurray: :crying: :cheers2:

I think I really love your post. My mom and I have had a far from perfect relationship and she was really tough on me about homeschooling Sailor Dude. But right now, none of that really matters. I'll take each day I can get, because I know not being able to pick up the phone and call her will far more difficult than anything I am doing right now.

Jane, I am very late to the party because I am in fact in the middle of all of this. My mom is very frail and terminally ill. We are working on the part of aging with dignity in place. I am one of only 2 children and although my sister is younger, her health is not good. I am anxious about how little consideration they really gave to elder care and now dh and I know we need to get busy with our own plans. Anyway, could you please direct me to thread everyone is talking about? Thanks! I hope all is well with you and yours.