I don't disagree with others' idea that maybe it's your 8yo whose reading program could change... But to your original question - Logic of English Foundations is another phonics program worth looking at - especially for a 5yo. It's in 4 levels - A - D. You'd need the teacher's manual (about $40) and workbook (about $20) and a set of phonogram cards. It's less expensive than AAR, but it has less "stuff." Lots of movement-based games/activities in each lesson - good for younger kids. If your dd did AAR 1, she'd probably be at about LOE B.

I hope your DS is feeling a bit better and getting some sleep. I'm not sure whether this will be at all helpful to you - 'cause Ritalin/Focalin do seem to help your DS and maybe it is a matter of titrating to the right dose/timing or finding something to help with the sleep issues (feel your pain there - have a 9yo who has always had difficulty with getting to and staying asleep). But just in case you never get the stimulant meds worked out it might be helpful to you to at least know about - my DS is on Straterra - it's a non-stimulant - it's actually an SSRI - a more anti-depression, anti-anxiety like med. This has helped him with a lot of behaviors that were attributed (maybe wrongly) to ADHD. It has helped somewhat with attention/focus as well - but mostly with overall mood. Again - I don't think it's your first (or even second or third) bet - b/c sounds like you are mostly concerned about classic hyperactivity and attention - and it doesn't do much for hyperactivity with my guy. A little. But not much. We tried the first-line ADHD meds (stims and a non-stim) and DS had far too many and too severe negative side effects.

Had a whole post deleted with a power surge when I was finishing typing it yesterday.... Storygirl - I've checked out those sites and the lists of accomodations and typical difficulties is interesting. I don't think DS fits the overall NVLD picture - but I think there's something going on with DS with some of the things on those lists...so I'll be in watch, wait, and see mode and your explanations and that overview of NVLD are really helpful for that - so thank you!!!! In the meantime I'm really thinking about how to take what I see as his deficits and adapt our learning activities accordingly - while also figuring out how to maybe help strengthen some of them, if possible. Documentation? Of "accomodations" :huh: :lol: :crying: . What a thought! Oh my....well we've got work to do.... The best part for me is that we've been able to "accomodate" DS all along - working on strengths, taking reading (dyslexic) slow and steady, waiting on writing and more formal math instruction until he was emotionally/behaviorally able to handle it. It wasn't really a grand master plan - more like just doing what we could when we could and trying to have fun along the way... And now DS is at a place and age where it is time to ramp up formal instruction / output (writing, especially). So mostly I feel pretty optimistic....

Storygirl - your explanations of NVLD and perspective on the low end scores are really helpful to me - thank you! I did a little bit of research on NVLD as well last night and this morning. Some things fit...some not at all...but IdK. Can someone be dyslexic and NVLD? They seem kind of opposite? That's not the main "doesn't fit" thing - I'm just curious after your description and what (little) I've read so far... But the biggest thing I'm trying to think through is how to take those scores and insights into potential issues and apply them to what we do - both how to adapt what we do in light of his strengths/serious weakness and also how to strengthen weaknesses. Thanks for your kind words too - my little guy has always been a puzzle and clearly differently wired - so I'm a bit immune to bad news these days. Anything that helps us better understand and help him...

Thank you Lecka and Storygirl - that was so incredibly helpful for me - to hear about y'alls/your DCs' experiences and for those explanations of the subtests and what they're testing and what it might mean. That pen to paper thing - the integrating visual and motor - after y'alls help with understanding it - yeah, now I can totally see that would be rock bottom for DS. Also, I'm willing to bet the Straterra might be helping, somehow, with that too - we've been doing more puzzle-y type activities - Q-bitz and pattern blocks and I really thought DS would resist, and instead he is doing them and liking the challenge - not the same fine motor as pencil drawing at all- but still lining up, looking at figures on cards and moving his fingers to match them. I don't see him being able to stick with it pre-medication. I've been using games and puzzle type stuff all along to try to get at visual-fine motor skill issues and while it's definitely time to bump up the writing/handwriting, I do think the games/puzzles are a great way to go for DS. I'd definitely include arts/crafts - we try - but his mama is.not.crafty. I actually bailed on a gifted program in high school b/c they kept requiring artsy projects and mine looked like, well, a typical 7 yo made them! I begged to be put in honors/regular classes with 'normal' reading and tests and papers! :laugh: Lecka that situation of your son's sounds difficult and frustrating - I really admire him for sticking it through and giving it his best! Social skills. Sigh. Whenever I get a little overwhelmed, I remind myself that Dh and I talked about and agreed - when it came to our DS at least his social and emotional well-being would be the most likely determinant of his "success" as an adult - and it is worth making it the highest priority of our homeschool - not what grade level he is on for math or reading or whatnot. Not that academics aren't important to us too, just needing to have rock solid big picture priorities and every now and then checking to make sure what we do is actually in line with those priorities. But this is likely preaching to the choir here... I have to say that I am feeling really encouraged - and seeing reasons in DS to be more encouraged...but I am so frustrated!!! We have hobbled along and never really found the help and support we've really needed. Ok, wah, that's likely what most of us go through with complex, challenging kids. OhE - I'm off to find out about reflexes - how to test and what to do...I'd be interested if there is something I can actually witness and some logic for why it matters that makes sense to me! Ok - not that I haven't picked y'alls brains enough - but I don't want to buy trouble - DS has plenty of acronyms already, my goodness...NVLD? Heard of it...but just from the subtest differences? Are major differences in subtests that unusual? Please know I'm going to do my own homework - not just ask here and bug you guys!!

Thanks for your responses! I do think that DS' attention/mood issues probably really impacted his testing results. It might be worth re-testing in a year or so to see....if I thought more info would help guide us. But I also think the differences between different subtests are 'real', too. They line up a lot with what I see in everyday life and when we're working on things together. I'm not concerned that my kiddo have a higher IQ or not - just looking to see how to best help him, especially given his challenges with attention/focus and reading/writing. I do have questions though - Lecka - what does the processing speed issue mean for your son? If you don't mind sharing...I'm not sure I really understand it. I see it in my DS - he does mental math, and does well...but it's one step at a time, slowly and it's a struggle to remember the steps he's taken already, especially now that he's doing multi-digit or multi-step problems, all in his head. But I always put it down to his attention/focus/concentration problems. The COVD exam has been on my list for a long time. I do think it's time to check it out. Thanks OhE for the encouragement. We have struck out twice with OT's. Just not helpful, even hurtful. On the priority list it's always been on the back burner. If other things keep getting better, it might be time to try again...but I'm down to one outfit, not covered by insurance...and they have a 3 month waiting list generally....but I would be interested in learning stuff myself and working with DS at home - we have done a lot of good things for DS when it comes to sensory issues...I don't know anything about these "retained reflexes" - only heard of them. And I have to admit that what I have heard makes me feel a bit skeptical...(so does the COVD/VT stuff sometimes...)...my "woo-woo" / "hooey" antennae start tweaking. So not to shut down the suggestion - rather I'd be interested to hear more and plan to start Googling. Funny you mentioned the news idea OhE - DH has been reading the paper to DS the last few weeks and talking about it. We've also been listening to the news in the car and discussing it, too. He loves it. Springboarding it to reading might be challenging - but worth a shot. I also really appreciate the questions - they're the important ones, now I think. I've been fairly happy with what we've been doing in terms of 'school' up to now, but it's time to stretch and add and your question about what we would do and how we could get closer to it are thought provoking and helpful!

So this group seems to have a lot of knowledge and experience with this. Can y'all help me understand what DS' score differences on the subtests might mean? How would you adapt your learning activities/expectations and/or help strengthen weaknesses? TIA for any insights or suggestions! DS is 9 now, had neuropsych eval at age 8 (a little over a year ago). He is diagnosed with ADHD, SPD and LD in reading (dyslexic). One of my main uncertainties is he did the tests at his most dysfunctional in terms of behavior and attention/focus. I could overhear the testing and they had a hard time keeping him on task at all - though they seemed to know what they were doing. So here's the WISC - IV scores: FS IQ 89 (average) Verbal comp 108 (70th percentile - average) Perceptual reasoning 84 (14th percentile - low average) Working memory 94 (34th percentile - average) Processing speed 75 (5th percentile, moderately impaired) They also ran a memory/learning test - CMS - Children's Memory Scale (heard of this one? I hadn't...) The big story on that one was huge dichotomies: good overall memory and learning scores...but Superior (95 - 99th percentile) for verbal and auditory memory (immediate and delayed recall/learning curve). While Visual memory was moderately impaired (1 - 5th percentile). Only visual tasks he did well on were faces/family activities visual scenes - when he was average 50 - 75th percentile, depending on task. They ran the Executive Function tests - Delis-Kaplan EF System - too. But I can make sense of those! They were no surprise. Low on attention/switching/inhibitory control, etc. Decent on reasoning/verbal "cognitive fluency". DS has pretty big fine motor deficits - coming along, but very delayed - might have played a role in the timed tests. But who knows? Recently we have found a medication that has been a total game changer for DS - previous rounds of ADHD meds were disastrous and unhelpful (stim and non-stim). But he has been on Straterra for the past 3 months and the difference is amazing - his mood is so improved (no more crying over everything; way less irritable), anxiety and frustration are way down. He's gone from multiple meltdowns daily over everything frustrating (he's a perfectionist...) to....none. It's not doing much about hyperactivity - but that's always been the least of DS' problems. This is radically changing what we are able to do in terms of homeschooling. Prior to now we did not do a lot of formal instruction/table work. I'm fine with that. Writing/reading practices involved tears, screaming, running and hiding and DS hitting himself over the smallest error/difficulty. It just wasn't possible to make much progress. But now DS wants to practice handwriting and reading and is staying calm throughout and giving it his best effort. Also, and I hope this doesn't sound weird - but he wants to learn everything now. He's always enjoyed our read alouds about history and science and literature. But now I am having trouble keeping up with him - he wants to read about everything (me read to him - his reading is at about a 2nd grade level), he watches and wants to talk about science videos (everything - space, electricity, fossil fuels, genetics/gene editing, hx of human evolution, etc.). Government/political news stuff. History. And he wants depth. I've gotten some things that he thinks are insulting his intelligence - he wants to know and understand more! I'm beginning to think that his deficits are masking real strengths...and I'm trying to come to terms with how to better help him with both ends of the spectrum. So that's why the return to those scores and thinking this all through... Sorry for the book length post! I try to edit/delete!

Just wanted to update y'all. DS wanted to go to a homeschool group activity - an arts and crafts thing at a library reserved room. We went this week and he did very well! Even talked to a couple of kids. We left a little earlier than everyone else - reached the end point of his ability to sit/focus. I know it sounds silly to be so encouraged by this - but simply participating in a group activity appropriately hasn't generally been something he could do (sometimes, but definitely not usually). We also went by a small theater group and signed DS up for a small kids drama class. It sounds good for him - talked to the director and instructor beforehand and when we went there to sign him up the interaction between DS and the class leader was really positive. I'm nervous for him, but hopeful. I'll definitely talk a bit more with the class leader about DS and strategies to help him do well without disrupting the class for the other kids. Starts in a month - it's an 8 week class - 1 hr once a week. Next big decision is whether to try out park day with a HS group again. DS wants to, which is a good sign - when things were going so badly for him he didn't want to go anywhere or play with any kids. Thinking about it...and thinking about plans/strategies to help ease him into it. Anyways - just wanted to say thanks for the encouragement and advice! P.S. OhE - laughing at the soft toys vs water guns thing - yeah, we didn't bring the water guns - just one of the main pools we'd go to always had kids with them. I like those dive sticks - and yes, having toys that he can share with other kids helps a lot! ;)

These are great ideas y'all and the concrete suggestions are giving me much needed courage to do what I know we need to do for our little guy. Lecka - thanks for your optimism! He has had some success at just finding kids to play with at the park. Sometimes not, and you're right - often it's not him. Kids can be...not open sometimes. Another thing I was thinking was that before going to a park day, I might join them at one of their meetup like events - I've seen group trips, like to a local play and other things. I could pick something DS likes to do. That way we could meet some of the group and scope it out in a situation without a huge amount of interaction with a big group. I can't wait for summer to go to the pools - you're right, OhE, somehow the fact of being in the water keeps things tamped down. Well, except for water guns. :closedeyes: It's been awhile, but we had rules. "What are the rules for water guns?" "No babies, no kids who say 'no' or 'stop it,' no adults - unless they spray me first and don't spray too close."

I think it'd be easier to swim to China. Just to give you big hugs. And to say that United HC sucks. I've had it. I've had several providers tell me that. We have Blue Cross Blue Shield now and they are much better. But maybe with Medicaid this is better for you, now. I hope so. And also, in case it makes you feel any better...I've taken what I call "expert breaks." You know, I bet, experts that don't know as much as you, aren't helpful, even harmful maybe. And a waste of time and money. So sometimes you want to clear your mind and calendar of said unhelpful, expensive experts and just enjoy your awesome, cute, lovable, amazing kiddo for awhile. 'Cause our kids are awesome and lovable, to say the least.

OhElizabeth - thank you! Your description of soccer is so spot on it made me laugh out loud. DS did soccer at 6 - seemed like a natural fit - he runs, he's fast, he kicks things. But in the group - oh my! He cared less about who had the ball - group think - huh?! He convinced the kids on his team to turn over and around the goal (light-weight structure apparently) during a game (!) so the other team couldn't score. It was funny, but sorta not. The sports classes is a conundrum. He is very physical, but a perfectionist. So competitive stuff is not likely to work well. Hmm... I do take your point about stepping things slowly. I'm thinking about private or small group swim classes this spring...then IF it's a good fit, a low key city rec center swim team this summer. I've been perusing the boards on 'social thinking' books, curriculum. It's time to do more of that too...Thanks for the suggestions! Sunday school at church is not an option. We are not Christian. Don't mean that with any rancor...just to clarify. A one week Lego camp would be a huge accomplishment for my DS - so I just mean - wow, way to go! That's big.

Hi EmmaNZ This might be totally too basic for your kiddo - but would it help to back up and practice the actual handwriting of letters - to spend time on "b" like letters - b, h, r, m, n, p -fpr a period of time. Then turn to the "d" like letters - "magic c" like earlier poster mentioned - d, c, a, o, q, g, ? Maybe do some big movement - air writing, sand paper cards, big chalk letters on sidewalk? Other activities to reinforce making the motion automatic? In the meantime, emphasize that reversals are no big deal in free writing - who cares if it's readable and he tried to write? There's a time to "practice" and focus on doing it correctly and a time to accept what happens... I have a kid who struggles with the accepting part, so I know about tears...

I like the 'make him happy' part - thx! I've been thinking about that a lot...like what might he really enjoy and go from there...

He likes to play pretend and run around, lol. And play video games and watch 'science videos' and discuss 'Trump News' and 'genetic editing'. He loves stories of any kind and acting them out. He likes to swim, but not sure about the competitive atmosphere of a swim team... I am not at all crafty or artistic...and he has fine motor challenges galore, but he's expressed interest in learning to draw or paint...just not sure about his perfectionism issues with this...

Thanks Pawz4me - we tried a social skills class pre-meds and he got asked not to come back...that he couldn't be calm enough to benefit. I think now would really be different. So that's a good reminder - I can check in for another one soon.

nt

Long time lurker and only occasionally a poster here...hope y'all don't mind if I jump in again with a question... DS 9 has had a rough time with social interactions/group settings. As in lots of fails, kicked out of a homeschool group, trouble with other kids treating him badly - purposely winding him up, or excluding him from play, etc. He's severely ADHD, dyslexic, SPD, lots of trouble with emotional regulation/frustration tolerance. And after all his troubles acquired anxiety, too. Ok, that's been the trajectory. We started him on Straterra this past fall and the change has been enormous. He's gone from 3 - 6 meltdowns daily (hitting himself, screaming, throwing things, sometimes hitting others) over frustration/emotions/anxiety, to hardly any. Like we're down to 1 episode every couple of weeks. And lately his interactions with people have been so positive - I can now see how much he was picking up on negativity from people so often (because of his behavior) and how different it must be for him to instead have people respond nicely to him. Shoot I've written a book already and I'm trying not to! Anyways, it's time to start easing him into group/social situations again. I'd like to see him make a couple of friends and get involved in an activity or two. Where would you start? Any suggestions about how to talk to group leaders/parents when I make overtures? Any advice for sniffing out good groups/classes vs. bad fits for SN kid? We've got exactly 1 other homeschool group option in my region - it might be a good one, but I want to start off on the right foot - probably not just tossing him into a big park day group, iykwim. Ideas or btdt advice? Or maybe I'm also looking for courage...I'm pretty nervous about this - for him and for me too - I'm sure I've got a little PTSD from all the 'fails' too. :closedeyes: Anyways, tia for reading and any thoughts...

I don't have any advice/answers. My kiddo (DS 8) is not ASD - but I feel like this all the time (ADHD, SPD...stuff). And I could have written this part of your post. So thanks for posting it. You are not alone. For me, I try and try again, and try to learn and slowly we are making progress. I'm still waiting on the magic bullet. And the expert with all the right answers. But I'm no longer holding my breath.

Thanks, OhE. It was our last appointment. I just wish I had been quicker and stuck up more clearly for him in front of him. Sigh.

We love mental math here. But it's b/c DS won't write. Ahem..can't write fast enough for it to be a math problem and not a writing practice. I keep talking up this magical, easier, pencil and paper algorithm I'll show him some day... But if our issue was the reverse...I'd drop it, or at least not emphasize it..in a heartbeat..does she understand the concepts, number sense, place value, know what to do to solve a problem? That seems way more important than whether she can remember the numbers in her head long enough and think quickly enough to get to a right answer. Oooh...the trying not to read other threads...thanks for the reminder! I should never click on a NT/gen ed thread about reading "difficulties." Hah! Torture! I'm kinda new to posting here - I HS one kiddo...our weird hybrid of classically influenced, unschool-ish...DS 8. I work part-time as well. He's still acquiring acronyms, apparently - ADHD, SPD and newly minted LD in reading.

OhE - thanks for replying with specifics on what you've got working with your DS! I hear you on finding a good, accountable OT. We did a round with an OT on our insurance. Not helpful. At all. I called it quits when she was using shame in her repertoire - "you're 7, you should be able to tie your shoes." I don't believe in sugar coating everything...but that set him back on being willing to try by months. :glare: I've got calls in to two OTs that have solid recommendations - no hooey, I don't think. I went on an expert strike a while back...now I'm ready to plunge in again, and this time hopefully I've got more experience to know what's worth the time and effort, not to mention money. I'll check out the Focus Moves book and send you a message - thanks!!! I can totally geek out on research articles...that's a really interesting question about the physical/social development link - seems research findings often still have the chicken/egg problem - like with dyslexia and MRI differences - which came first, the difference in brain wiring/function or the years without reading fluently? I guess I'm gun shy on the reading. I appreciate your input on how you broke down the lessons into smaller chunks. Right now, DS does.not.want.to.read. And I find that when reading is my focus, we miss out on other stuff/fun stuff/stuff he is more successful on - kwim? Obviously we will have to address it, and it will take a lot of consistent practice over months/years. I just wonder if I can get him on board with it. Some early success - much less Rockstar action! - would be great and help a lot I think. Thinking out loud here - hope y'all don't mind. Getting the eval back has just had me really, really re-thinking what we're doing with DS!

I'll be really interested if getting good OT for sensory helps DS with his "bounciness." I guess, given how he is and how not much has seemed to help with that, I'm skeptical. But I've decided to give it a go and stick with it for long enough. DS started playing soccer - he has difficulties in groups, especially structured/class situations. But he convinced us to sign him up. He's done better than expected. We got the shin guard issue mostly fixed (he had trouble tolerating the shin guards/socks for the whole game/practice). The agreement was if he could finish the soccer season, we'd look into gymnastics. So far, he's held up his end of the bargain. So that's on the agenda for after the holidays. We are definitely supportive of DS doing more activities/exercise/groups - but he has often not been able to get along and not finished in the past. So this time, as he's getting older, we put more of the onus on him for being responsible for it. No high bar, just communicating if/when he has difficulties (so we can help fix issues - such as shin guards or what-have-you) and trying his best to cooperate/follow instructions. One thing I have noted, that I need to be more routine about, is how much better DS is at focused work following real exercise - even if it's just 5 minutes on the mini-trampoline and 10 up/downs on the stairs or the like. I am thinking about delaying starting a new reading program (probably Barton) until we see if we can make some headway with attention/hyper issues - either through OT/VT. I have had DS trying to read some days and his body is so all over the place and bouncing up and down that I can't figure out how he could see a word to sound it out! Sometimes I can reign him in, but some times it's just a lost 'cause :tongue_smilie: Do y'all think there is any real disadvantages of waiting? Say 3 months or so?

The inner geek in me wants to research all this...and debate constructed categories, etc..but so far at least, my experience with DS has been that it doesn't much matter at the end of the day. He's got issues and we've got to learn how best to help him and help him help himself. But Crimson Wife you've now given me another key term to look up...off to Google!

Someday I'll learn how to post without writing a book! :tongue_smilie:

Thanks for the help y'all! I spent a day making calls, researching and thinking through a plan. Lecka, thanks for your thoughts on the treat/manage. It is a long-term thing for DS, we've been feeling our way for some time now. I have hesitated to go overboard - I don't want to turn everything and our whole lives into problems/therapies. But I think I've been a teensy bit head-in-the-sand about it. I guess I expected the neuropsych eval to point me in some directions and give me more info on what kinds of strengths/challenges DS has. But I didn't expect to be so impacted by the realization of just how much DS' inability to focus and need for physical movement is affecting him. It seems ridiculous - I know exactly how much that affects him and his life on one level - but the testing experience and the results have just made me really confront it and re-think how I want to approach trying to help him with it. So it sounds like both OT and VT should be on the table. VT is a lot more expensive, if DS needs it. So, I'm going to move forward with getting started with a good OT and we'll do the COVD evaluation and see what the results are, but likely put that on the back burner for a while and first see what OT does. I'm really struggling with what to do on the reading front. DS has struggled so much - he does not want to read. It's heartbreaking really - he loves stories, loves when we read to him, wants to act out anything we read that is interesting to him... But he avoids like the plague things that he finds really difficult, and it has been a real struggle for him. He has come so far - but he beats himself up if he can't do something right. (In the past, literally. Slowly, but surely, he is not hitting himself in the head anymore when upset/frustrated..). I had to first convince him that we love ugly letters in this house to get him to be willing to try to write anything at all...It took quite a while before he'd try to write without getting upset at the results/process and/or just refuse. I still don't have him convinced that it's ok to sound out words and not get it right the first time. So I'm just not sure he is in a place to do regular, intensive practice....but I think he will have to and I don't know how long I'd want to put it off... OE I've been looking at bigger guns for reading for some time now, so Barton was on my radar. I just need to decide when to get started. And I appreciate your point about getting him in a better place to be able to learn - if OT could significantly help with that, I'd be overjoyed! When you started with the first levels of Barton - how much time did you spend on it each week and in a session? DS' attention span right now is about 10 - 15 minutes - maybe longer if activities change or it's going smoothly. I'll do the pre-test and maybe email Barton about placement... Watched a video y'all linked in another thread of an interview with Susan Barton - what an amazing advocate! - VInNY thanks for sending me to the thread on hierarchy of treatments -- reading through older threads, I'm struck by how helpful and supportive this group is!