I'm sorry; I haven't had the chance to become familiar with SSL yet! My instincts though are that some portions of EL might be redundant, but other parts could still be very very helpful. She begins the program, for example, with a whole slew of chants for the declension and conjugation endings, as well as chants for common verbs. These could help ANYBODY studying or about to study any Latin grammar program!!

I love Level 2 of this program for a gentle introduction of Latin to younger ages, say....Grades 3 and below. It introduces Latin vocabulary in a friendly, workbook format. Beyond that, I'm not crazy about it. I don't care for the way the grammar is taught in Level 3 and beyond, and I don't think an entire book is necessary to teach the Latin alphabet in Level 1. What age are you searching for? For Grades 4-6 I love Great Latin Adventure (classicallegacypress.com), and Grades 7 and up I think Latin Prep by Galore Park is fantastic. Grades 3 and under I love Elementary Latin by Nancy Sattler. Hope this helps!

I have mentioned this curriculum before, but I love it so much, I feel it deserves a mention in this thread! I've been using "The Great Latin Adventure" by Katharine Birkett (http://www.classicallegacypress) for years now, even though it's only been published for the past year. Both my two youngest kids have used it, and I've taught it in co-ops for five years. As a beginning Latin curriculum for 4th - 6th graders, it's absolutely outstanding!!!! Mrs. Birkett has a wonderful way of writing that is appealing to both the students and mothers who may feel intimidated going into Latin. Not only that, she has come up with a new approach to Latin grammar that gets the students to learn and do so much more in a beginning curriculum. While other curricula teach 1st, 2nd, and sometimes even 3rd noun declensions and verb conjugations, GLA only teaches 1st noun declensions and 1st verb conjugations. This allows the students to do SO much more with their grammar. They learn three verb tenses, lots of wonderful vocabulary that is very appealing to both boys and girls alike, direct objects, predicate nominatives, possessives, etc. Plus every chapter has a terrific worksheet that emphasizes those all-important English derivatives. With that wonderful push on derivatives and grammar, GLA really hits home on the main reasons I want my children to learn Latin! And when they finish both volumes of GLA, the students can move into a higher level beginning Latin curriculum (middle school, such as Latin Prep, or high school level) with extreme ease. I have to stop myself - I'm sorry to go on for so long! I didn't mean to. You can tell how much I love this curriculum. It's not well known yet since it's so new to the market. But I expect it to be a big hit relatively soon.;) What a fun thread...especially at this time of the year! Keep 'em coming!

Hello everyone, I guess it might be time for me to jump in here and answer a main question of this thread: "Is WT compatible with SWB's writing philosophy in WWE?" Let me first preface this by saying that I have read the introduction and Year One of WWE this year, in preparation for teaching a writing class in our Co-op. The majority of my research this year has been spent on the progymnasmata, and not SWB's writing philosophy, so I am not in a position to debate that specifically. But from what I read specifically in her Intro to WWE, and then from skimming Years 3 and 4 just now, I can tell you that yes, WT seems to be written along exactly the same lines of WWE. In fact, I remember last fall, as I was reading the Intro to WWE, nodding my head the whole way through while reading SWB's so succinctly-put words that so well summed up what I have learned about how young children learn to write and what I think is a wonderful way to teach them when they are young. It's all about studying well-written models and then re-writing them, or dictating as a younger child, in your own words. I hope that answers the question! Please don't hesitate to e-mail me at my website if you ever have any WT questions. I'm rather hesitant to comment specifically about the program here. All the best!

Hi Annmarie, I run a classical academic co-op. We currently have 16 families. Students have classes over four periods offered in some combination of Latin, Logic, Science, History and Writing. For the younger students we are able to cover all five subjects (Latin is combined with Logic in one class period, for example), for the older students, one subject is dropped (5th grade and up usually doesn't have History, for example.) Currently we cover ages Nursery through 9th grade - we hope to add one more grade level per year. To participate, parents teach "one and a half" classes. Teaching the one class is obvious; teaching the "half" class can be done a variety of ways. You may be assigned to co-teach a class with someone else, you may be an assistant in a science or history class (meaning that you will be putting together a number of crafts or experiments during the year), or you may be teaching a Logic class by yourself (the Logic classes are so easy to teach that we qualify them as a "half class" teaching responsibility.) For our curriculum, we used the following this year, and most years follow the same set-up: History: For our PK-4th graders we use SOTW as a spine, then add in read-alouds (both those and SOTW are done at home during the week.) In class they learn about a famous figure, and do a craft together that reinforces the current event or time period being learned about. This year our high schoolers are doing Beautiful Feet Ancient History. Science: 7th graders and up do the Apologia courses. 6th graders and under do a four year cycle of: Human Body, Chemistry/Physics, Astronomy, and Biology. We make up our own curriculum for this. Topic of the week is learned about at home beforehand; classtime is used for hands-on experiments. Writing: PK and K: Five in a Row. 1st and 2nd: First Language Lessons. 3rd and 4th: Writing Tales. 5th - 8th: Classical Writing. 9th: Lost Tools of Writing. Logic: PK - 6th: Building Thinking Skills and Mind Binders. 7th: Art of Argument. 9th: Traditional Logic by Cothran Latin: 1st - 3rd: Vocabulary and Latin Chants by Elementary Latin (Sattler.) 5th - 6th: Great Latin Adventure by Birkett (http://www.classicallegacypress.com.) 7th: Latin Prep 1. 8th-9th: Spanish 1 using A Beka. There you go - the whole ball of wax! We meet in a wonderful church that does not charge us for the use of their facility. In return we give them a very generous donation that more than covers their costs for utilities and general wear-and-tear. We ask each family for a per-child fee to get the money for that donation. And we ask for a registration fee each year to get money for our operating costs. Oh, and we get our insurance through HSLDA, so each family has to be a member. If you have any questions at all, please feel free to PM me! Hey, have fun with it! My biggest obstacles in starting this were finding a place to meet, and finding people to help me with the work. God answered those two specific needs almost immediately. We've been in operation almost two years so far, and it's just been an incredible blessing the whole way.

Cindy, check out "The Great Latin Adventure" by Classical Legacy Press. It was just published this past spring, but I know the author and I've been using it in our co-op for four years now. It's WONDERFUL! Perfect for 4th - 6th graders just starting Latin, Mrs. Birkett takes a different approach to beginning Latin. She only teaches the 1st declension and 1st conjugation in these two volumes. This wonderful way of teaching allows the students to learn a greater amount of grammar and vocabulary and manipulate what they know into longer, more complex sentences by the time they finish the course. And when they finish both volumes, they are ready to attack a higher level beginning Latin curriculum (think Jr. High or High School) with great ease. The course also spends a great deal of time on derivatives and English word roots. Every chapter has a wonderful "Derivative Worksheet" that will expand your child's vocabulary by miles. Not only that, it's written so that any parent can teach it easily. Can you tell I love it? Every family that comes into our co-op and experiences this program for the first time has the same reaction as well. Check it out: http://www.classicallegacypress.com. Hope this helps...

It IS worth having your doctor check things out first. We had this issue with my son for a very long time as well. Our pediatrician felt he needed to be checked by a urologist, and he found an issue immediately that needed to be surgically corrected (pm me if you want to know more info.) However, even after the surgery the bedwetting continued. We went to the alarm, and for us - that worked beautifully. It wasn't pleasant while we were going through the process, but it didn't take long and it really helped. I like hearing that chiropractics may also help...we have just in the past five years become big fans of our chiropractor, and after my son's surgery, I would have tried that before the alarm had I known about it at the time. Good luck!

Sharon, thank you so much for keeping this thread going! It's been such an encouragement to me. Some verses that have helped me this weekend: Psalm 27:13-14 "I am still confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." The whole Psalm is wonderful, but I especially love those ending verses! They'll be going on my fridge momentarily. We need prayer in particular that the jobs my husband has currently applied for will respond positively and want to interview him. Thank you. On a praise note, the Lord has provided for us wonderfully over the past two weeks, in ways we had never expected. Friends have unexpectedly dropped off grocery store gift cards (several friends, none knowing each other!), parents sending unexpected monetary gifts, a utility bill unexpectedly lower than it should have been -all are helping us make it through this month and the next. Praise the Lord! I keep all of you on this thread in prayer and pray the same might happen for all of you. God is in control!

Thank you for starting this thread! My husband lost his job over a year and a half ago. Nothing to do with the economy; he is by trade a full-time minister of music. At the time he was working in a large church in a large city. Caught in the midst of the traditional vs. contemporary music battle, my husband was hired because he could do both kinds of music very well. The church swung mostly traditional, but had a pastor that wanted to make the church all contemporary. When he saw the traditional service growing under my husband's leadership, he became determined to get rid of my husband. To make a very long story as short as possible, in the end he lied about my husband to the elder board, and the board fired him without asking him in to tell his side of the story. I'm sorry; I never know how much of our story to share! It sounds like sour grapes when I tell the truth, but I don't know how else to share it without explaining why my husband was fired from a church position :001_unsure: After twenty years in the ministry we have certainly learned that churches are far from perfect places to work, but we are working hard at forgiveness, and are anxious to get back into a new ministry position already. My husband loves leading the Lord's people in worship! And is uniquely and wonderfully gifted to do so. No unemployment benefits as my husband was in a ministry position. We did have some severance pay, but it was gone long ago. My husband has been interviewing all over the country ever since then, and has been very close three or four times to getting something new, but for whatever reason the Lord has not chosen to bless us with a new position yet. I have my book business, but it barely supports itself at this time. I have not gone to work yet as we are still desperately trying to keep me home to homeschool our youngest two. My youngest one especially has anxiety issues that would make putting her in public school (for the first time) especially difficult for her. We are so grateful for the many ways the Lord has provided for us over these past months. Our families have helped us so much. Even our friends have helped from time to time as they have been able to. The financial aid for my daughter in college has been incredible, and we've been so grateful that she's been able to start her freshman year. Still, we are in desperate need of prayer right now. My husband has only found one part-time job, and it only pays about 1/4 of our monthly bills. We lose our health insurance next month. The winter is a very slow time for churches to post job openings; new job openings are starting to pop up right now and my husband is sending out new resumes all the time. Still, going through the interview process with each church takes an average of three months. We are still a very long way away from having any kind of job. We live in a very expensive area of the northeast. We haven't been able to afford our house for a long time. We are right now packing up our house to put it on the market - and expect to sell it whether we have a job to go to or not. If he doesn't have a job, we'll just have to move, blindly, to another part of the country with a cheaper cost of living. That is extremely stressful for me...I don't want to lose my home. Moving to a job in another state is a different story; moving without a job is a different story. I'm so sorry for going on for so long! I've borne this well for the winter, faithfully, I hope, but today has been a real breaking point for me. If you could just pray, first of all that he would find a job and finally be able to use his talents again! And secondly that we would have wisdom to know what to do next, to know what is best for our family and to discern the Lord's will. Again, thank you SO much. I'll be watching this thread and joining in prayer for the rest of the requests. One thing this time has done for me is given me a real ache for others going through similar or even tougher times. Blessings,

In our co-op we use Our Mother Tongue for grammar with Homer. It seems to work relatively well, although I quibble some with the retention. I think some combination of OMT with some of the Shurley techniques and perhaps a diagramming workbook would be just about perfect.

I've used both programs. 1. Both are workbook programs. Both are relatively easy for the student to use on his own, with the parent correcting later or with the child. 2. Easy Grammar teaches identification of prepositional phrases first. Once you cross those out, you basically have the core of the sentence left, and it's relatively easy to identify the rest of the parts from there. I like that approach. 3. GWG has a text in which the student reads a lesson each day. After that, the student has two workbook pages to do. The parent then corrects. 4. I find retention to be better with GWG than with EG. 5. There is some writing in GWG, although very little, primarily limited to letter writing and a paragraph or two once in awhile. No writing in EG. 6. There is diagramming throughout in GWG. I have done EG with my children through Level 56, and not seen any diagramming yet. Overall, I much prefer GWG! Although, I do not miss the chance to teach my children the prepositional phrase approach used in EG, which I think is excellent. Hope this helps!

This curriculum is wonderful! I've been using it for two years, and it's really terrific. The mom can be as involved as she wants to be (I think it's better to be more involved than less involved...) I do this by correcting my daughter's work each day either as she finishes it or at the end of the day. This way I know exactly what she's doing in the course. I DO wish there were tests in addition to the end of chapter reviews; perhaps this is something Tami will go back and add in when she finishes the whole series. In the meantime, it really isn't necessary. We struggle as it is to finish the whole book by the end of the year. Hope this helps...

...but I have heard they do NOT hold up in court. Nevertheless, we have everyone sign "Hold Harmless Agreements" when they join us for the Co-op as a group, the Co-op's Leadership Council, AND the Church that hosts us. The thought there is that regardless of whether or not they hold up as legal documents in court, the act of signing them in the beginning of the year will hopefully be enough to prevent anyone from pursuing legal action should they feel they have reason to do so later on. In other words, they might think: "Such and such happened....we need to sue! Oh wait - we signed that 'Hold Harmless Agreement. We agreed not to sue." That's our hope, anyway!

Oh wow, do not even think of having the group without the protection of insurance! I have been co-oping for seven years now - you think you're never going to need the insurance...but I have seen/or experienced two instances now where we didn't actually end up needing the protection, but we came very very close to needing it. In this era of "everyone sues everyone for everything" you've just GOT to have coverage! Unfortunately, even if your group is a Christian group.....get. the. insurance. We have had insurance through a couple of different places, and our favorite so far is our current policy holder - through HSLDA. It's been the easiest to get and the easiest to maintain.

Oh yes, absolutely. Click on their "Live chat" icon which I think is on almost every one of their pages. Tell them the problem, (yes, they will want you to email them a picture of the book.) And they WILL send you another copy of the book. I've never had a problem getting them to ship me a new book, no matter how little the problem is that I'm complaining about with the production of my shipment. Good luck!

Imitations in Writing or perhaps... Classical Composition

This thing is just SO hard to interpret. But a wonderful lady, the author of WriteShop actually, has just given me a wonderful link that explains it all beautifully. I wanted to share it with you all. http://www.thesmartmama.com/bg/ This blog is written by an environmental attorney. Here she interprets the CSPIA. The summary? YES, it does include used items and existing inventory. NO, these items do not actually have to be tested and have certification. But they must be lead-compliant. (What that means, or how one would prove that my books, for example, contain no lead with their paper pages and plastic coil bindings, I have no idea.) Anything manufactured after the dates mentioned in the CSPIA has to be tested and receive certification that it meets the approved standards. A simple inexpensive test will do this until August; after that a more expensive test from only government-approved labs will do the trick as the approved lead-levels go drastically down at that point. Again...a great idea....badly thought out. Not only will this kill small businesses, what will it do to prices for the average consumer? How will the garment industry survive if they have to test each individual item? I can't believe this isn't all over the news.

OK - now I see where this information that Lisa has is coming from! And I think it's giving me SOME relief in regards to this bill. She's right - products manufactured before November 12, 2008 are exempt! This is what I found on the CSPIA website: "What certifications are required for children’s products that are tested for lead paint? For currently effective lead paint limits (600 ppm), general conformity certification is required for products manufactured after November 12, 2008 based on a test of the product or a reasonable testing program for products. Third-party testing of the product for currently effective lead paint limits by accredited third party laboratories is required for products manufactured after December 21, 2008." This would seem to indicate that anything manufactured BEFORE November 12th is, indeed, exempt. Meaning that we don't have to panic about the sale of used books, toys and clothing. Phew! The bill still means big trouble ahead for small businesses, though, in regards to new products.

It does absolutely specify ANYTHING sold for use by children under 12, new AND used! I have been to the website for this bill and looked it over very carefully. Very scary, indeed. And the fact that the buzz is SO slight concerns me GREATLY. The impact of this bill is going to be enormous. I have been around the internet, and I can tell you that the garment community is talking a great deal, as are other communities such as those of hand-made toys and my own - the self-publishers. But the talk otherwise seems to be almost non-existent. It's absolutely unreal - how many small businesses this is going to affect. One thing you can do now: (1) Call your Congressmen! Tell them you are alarmed at the impact that the CSPIA is going to have on small businesses, and ask them to repeal or amend it immediately! Thanks!

Have any of you heard yet of the CSPIA Act? This is a law passed by Congress last summer - the Consumer Safety Protection Information Act. In a nutshell, it states that ANYTHING sold for use by children under 12 MUST be tested and then hold a certification that it does not contain lead above a certain amount set by the government. It's not limited to lead - the language is written so that the government can add any other materials deemed hazardous at any time. Sounds like a good idea, right? Here's the catch. It applies to ANYTHING. Clothes. Books. Toys. Furniture. New or used. Clothing being sold for children must be tested by a lab and hold a certification that it does not contain lead. Books must be tested. Furniture must be tested. So ALL items, even those made out of natural fibers, such as paper, wood, etc., that would have absolutely NO chance of containing any lead! must be sent by their manufacturer to a lab for an expensive test to receive this certificate. Do you know how many small businesses (like mine, for example - I sell workbooks meant for the use of children under 12!) are going to be put OUT of business? Resale shops, thrift stores - all of them - if they can't test and certify every item they are selling - they'll be out of business too. I have known about this for about six weeks, because I am in a group of self-publishers that has been talking about it for that long. But if I were not in that group, I wouldn't know a thing. Because I have not heard ONE thing about any of this in the mainstream media. Have any of you? Granted, I don't spend a lot of time watching TV news, or reading newspapers ... though I do know there have been a FEW newspaper columns about it here and there. This jaw-dropping legislation, begun with a good purpose in mind but pushed through too fast and not thought out thoroughly, has the amazing power to shut down small businesses everywhere. Book businesses like mine. Small clothing industries. Consignment shops, homemade toy and clothing businesses - all will be gone. Because only the big companies will be able to afford to keep up with the red tape and expensive testing required now by our government. I'm trying to get the word out, and also trying to get a feel for just how many people are aware of this already. So please tell me: did you know about this yet? And if so, how did you hear about it? Thanks!

My son has had insomnia ever since he was an infant. He's also got ADHD, and yes, I do believe the two are related. He just can't slow down enough - his body OR his brain - to go to sleep. He's been helped by (a) regular chiropractic treatment, and (b) one melatonin tablet each night. The combination, plus the onset of puberty (!) has been enough to get him to sleep regularly each night by midnight. I know...doesn't seem like enough sleep....but for him, it is. And he doesn't like to read (also a by-product of his ADHD) unless the only choice he's got is to either read or go to sleep, so I have always tried to put him to bed at a regular time anyway, say 9 or 10 o'clock, without electronics and with a good book, so that bedtime has turned into his reading time. He REALLY has anxiety when sleepovers or campouts with his friends arise. Because then, even with the one melatonin tablet, he is still awake all night long. I used to get phone calls at 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning from a very anxious child...lying awake all night with snoring friends all around you is NOT fun! Now I send him armed with melatonin AND a Benadryl tablet. I'm sure the other parents are shocked at me, but the combination is relatively gentle, and really puts him out when the time is right. Thanks to this thread, now I know it's OK for him to take TWO melatonins, so we'll try that next time instead! I don't know if any of this is helpful at all, but I figure when you're looking for the right solution for your own situation, it helps to hear what has worked for everyone else. I hope you are able to find what works for your own son, and soon! All the best.

Chiming in here because we LOVE this song, too! Kind of a fan of the album...parts of it, not all, but this song is amazing. Did anybody see their performance of it on Saturday Night Live a couple of months ago? It was wonderful! We don't usually watch too much of the show, but when we heard they were going to be on, we stayed up to watch. We're both musicians, and we were fascinated to watch them perform the song. The timpani, especially...wow!

Money is tighter than it's ever been for us before, and we really didn't expect to be able to give each other gifts, other than getting a few for the kids. But we did come up with something fun: a few days before Christmas, we all went to the dollar store, and I gave each family member $4 (there's five of us.) Everyone had to use their money to buy one present for each person's stocking. Then Christmas morning everyone had four presents in their stocking. As we opened our stockings, we had to guess who the presents were from. I wasn't sure how it would go over, but everyone loved it! Not only that, it was the first time in years that I actually had a filled Christmas stocking (not that that was the point...)!! And my in-laws surprised me with a very pretty necklace from their trip in Norway. The parents are pretty much just helping us out with some money to pay bills this year, so I didn't expect any presents to unwrap. It was a GREAT surprise!! This is a very fun thread! I'm really enjoying reading it...keep 'em coming!

I'm a big fan of doing as much schoolwork on the computer as possible IF it makes things easier for the child (meaning it improves the quality of their work, lessens temper tantrums, etc.) BUT if it means skipping out on that handwriting completely, forget it! I recently realized that my 6th grader and 9th grader were forgetting the cursive we had worked so hard to learn! When they needed to write things, their first choice was printing, and when I asked them for cursive, they couldn't remember it. YIKES! Back we went to daily copywork very very quickly - and while they sure complained about it, their cursive memory returned very quickly. I'm thrilled to see my 6th grader is now completing her workbooks in cursive without being asked to do so. So...copywork on the computer? I guess I'm not crazy about that idea. I think the students should have some time each day when they are focusing on those fine motor skills. You can always fine tune the length of the copywork to their abilities....but I do think it should be handwritten.

The key for me in your original post was that she WILL write when you let her use the computer! Ahh, I thought, how are her fine motor skills? Are they developing at a normal pace, or are they lagging behind? If you feel they are lagging behind, first of all - don't worry, they WILL catch up. And second, this could be your answer. Perhaps one of the reasons she is giving you so much trouble with writing is that she simply doesn't like the actual mechanical act of handwriting! (Now, I could also argue that yes, the cake assignment was not perhaps one of my favorites, and that creative writing is difficult for children of this age, it is easier for them to write when they are given a subject/story line to start with - but I am obviously a fan of the imitative style of teaching writing, so I will let this be obvious, and move on.) I would recommend that you continue with a little bit of copywork or dictation each day (perhaps alternate which one you do each day, or match it to her current abilities), and then regardless of which writing program you choose for her (choose what you like best for your teaching style and her learning style), and regardless of whether you start her this year or next year, let her do her writing on the computer! She is not too young to start her on an easy typing program as well. Hope this helps.