I just saw this post. I will share what I did with my second grade son this past year. He used Saxon 3 combined with Singapore Level 2 Standards Edition (with IP2 US edition). We did Saxon 3 days per week, and Singapore 2 days per week. He gets math concepts quickly so he would usually do multiple lessons of Singapore 2 per day. We only did Singapore on Thursdays and Fridays. Once he finished with the regular workbooks, we move into the IPs again from the beginning so 2A then 2B. Saxon 3 does do an overall decent job in teaching concepts. It excels however at cementing the math facts...which is what I mainly use it for. It also has plenty of review. It is incremental in approach. It can occasionally take way too long, so I cut out much of the meeting book once I feel the material in it has been mastered. I check occasionally to be sure. This amount of math may be too much for some, and I understand that. For this child it worked well. I used a similar approach with my eldest when she was in early elementary. They have both received perfect scores on every standardized test (in all areas) they have ever taken. Because of this I am not too quick to switch programs. I do like to supplement things from other curricula in, and I love hearing how others do math and what has worked for them. I'm not saying it's the Holy Grail, nor is it the only way by any stretch, but it works very well here.

I'm planning on attending, also. :)

I agree :) ETA: Just wanted to add that for cubed roots to "back out" of the problem you would think of what number n will give you n X n X n = 64. When you are working with smaller numbers this is usually easy to see by use of estimation.

I used Saxon 3 combined with Singapore 2 for my 2nd grader last year. We enjoyed it. Saxon is incremental in its approach and reviews more often which I liked at the younger levels. Both of my older children have done well with the combination of Singapore and Saxon approaches. Saxon builds more on skills and Singapore is stronger in problem solving. For my son in particular, we only did Saxon 3 times a week; and Singapore 2 days a week. I also cut out parts of the meeting book that he already knew since it would have been way too much review for him. Both of my children that used this combo have scored perfect scores on every standardized math test they've taken, so I have been pleased with both programs. They both understands math concepts very well, too. :)

I agree with this suggestion, but my only caution would be that the ideas in the IP are generally introduced in the textbook, so it may be easier to go through the text first. For the CWP there are examples that give ideas of how to approach the problems in the book, but it may still be helpful to at least read through the text first since both the CWP and IP are extensions of the Singapore Primary Math curriculum.

We used R&S 2 with my second grader this past year. I overall like the book, and I plan to use it with my 5yo when he gets to 2nd grade. It does have a bit too much writing I think, but the way I resolved that issue was to have my son do most of it orally and then write one or two sentences on his paper from the exercises. My daughter also completed R&S 4 recently. Doing too different grade levels of it seemed to work fine for us. I scheduled them at different times of the day. My son in the morning hours and my daughter in the afternoon. Good luck. :)

I think you misunderstood my post, and I have read and understood the points in Ma's book. I was agreeing with you that a truly competent teacher - not a self-delusional one - is one of the most important factors in a student learning math well. Whether they are American, Chinese or whatever, having a good teacher is a critical to learning math well.

It's been over a year since I read it, but Ma's book was a real eye-opener for me, too. I had not heard of how bad things had become in some elementary schools with some elementary teachers. Sadly, I didn't doubt the results of her book because when I was working at the graduate level in math, the American students were for the most part behind students from other countries (China, South Korea, and Russia come to mind) as far as the introductory graduate level courses and preparedness for those. I was not referring to a self-delusional teachers, though, in my comments, I was referring to a truly competent teacher - like the Chinese teachers portrayed in Ma's book. I was not defending American teachers or any particular American Math curriculum. My point was and is that there are many factors that affect how well a student learns math - and as Ma's book points out - the competency of the teacher is one of the bigger ones.

That is great that you are learning so much math. :) I have not used a DVD program before for teaching math. One thing that helps me is working ahead in a book that I am teaching my daughter math from. I find it helpful to both her and I to go through and work some of the problems like she will encounter to give me a better idea of what and how to teach better. I like some curricula better than others, too.

:iagree: One of the most important factors in learning math well is the understanding level of the teacher. It's a very thought-provoking book.

The understanding of the teacher is still what is critical since one would assume that a competent teacher would have a firm grasp on whether she or he is teaching a concept or not. Another factor is how well and quickly a student can grasp a subject. Some kids pick up concepts quickly with less explanation and some need more examples and to approach an idea from different angles.

In my experience creativity is very much tied to both complex problem solving and demonstrating results with proofs; it is very much intertwined with math. Perhaps some don't see it that way, but it is helpful to be able to think outside the box when you encounter a problem you haven't see before. As far as math drills go, I personally choose for my children to learn the math facts because it makes things easier for them down the road. I make sure they understand the concepts behind the ideas first. It does not take that long to learn them, and it is helpful to have a quick recall, for example, in long division with multiple digit numbers - both working out the solution and estimations of quotients. I think there really is no way to guarantee that a student will love math, but I agree that a positive attitude from a competent teacher and the way a concept is taught can play a constructive role in how well a student both understands and enjoys math.

Great post, Lori D.! As someone who is left-handed and a VSL, :iagree:. I had to draw pictures to figure out what was going on when I was confused with math concepts. I have not used MUS, but I agree with others who suggest showing the concepts in a visual way from several different angles if possible if it would help him better grasp the concept. I suggest having him demonstrate subtraction and addition to you with manipulatives; if he understands those concepts, then it sounds to me like he may need to brush up on math facts. Good luck :)

:iagree:Unfortunately, the RS games did not work very well for my older children, either. Both have other games they prefer to play when we have game time. I've not yet tried the RS games with my 5yo, but he likes to work on Saxon drill sheets. He requests one or two a day. He thinks its great to do math facts sheets like his older siblings - and he's quick, too. (I'm not complaining as long as he's enjoying it. ;)) (BTW: I have not taught him to memorize any math facts yet...he just figures them out either by counting manipulatives or on an abacus.) I'm glad the games work for some; I'm also glad we have other choices.

My 2nd grade son used Saxon 3 (combined with Singapore 2 with IP) this year, and he was done with his standardized math test in less than 4 minutes where he was allowed 18. He had so much time left that I had him go back and double check his answers. He seemed very well prepared for the test. :)

The IP are intended to be use after you've gone through the ideas in the textbook. The textbook is where the teaching is. There are more variety in the types of problems in the IP than in the CWP and the difficulty level is greater in the IP and CWP than in the general workbooks. The CWP give examples in the book of how to approach the problems which (in most cases) the IP do not. The IP do sometimes give hints in the book for harder word problems, though. Many people use the IP and CWP books a year behind, although it is my understanding that they are intended by the authors to be used at the same level. No matter which way you may choose to use them, they are great books for delving deeper into the math ideas being taught in the Singapore primary program.

It is frightening that the teachers Ma profiled couldn't solve basic math problems. I was fortunate to have had competent math teachers, but I can see how having a teacher who doesn't understand a math concept and then attempts to teach it could cause all sorts of problems. Based on what I read in her book, perhaps if elementary (and secondary) teachers were expected to demonstrate math concepts or be required to take more math courses that would help. [i really don't mean to pick on them, I had good math teachers.] What I take away from the book as my childrens' teacher is that it is important that I understand concepts before I teach them and to make sure they are getting a concept before moving on. I have found it to be helpful to approach a problem from a different angles to cement the ideas regardless of which curriculum I use. It also helps me to read through the lesson plans the night before and think of ways to make our lessons more interesting.

I think you should read Ma's book. If I remember correctly (it's been over a year since I read it) she noticed in her book than many American teachers that she observed had a poor understanding of some of the most basic concepts of math. Unfortunately, this weakness gets transferred to the next generation they teach. She points out something on the line of how can you teach a concept you don't understand? Another problem with learning math in a classroom setting is that even if you have a teacher who understands the concepts they are teaching, they may not catch it when a student does not get it. That is one of the things that makes homeschooling beneficial. The personal attention from a parent can help catch these little problems before they become big problems. I also think that when we become teachers, our motivation to learn a subject goes up. I learned math in much more depth when I had to teach it at university; I had to be prepared for any question about math from any student. I like MEP, too. My problem is that I could spend hours on math because I find so many math programs I like. I have to limit my curricula if I plan to get through any of them. :D I'm sorry you had a bad experience when learning math. There are so many people who can relate, and it is really sad. I'm glad you are getting it now and enjoying it more.

I was fortunate to have had very good teachers. I also drew pictures of concepts when I didn't understand what was going on because I learn best visually.

:iagree:

In every math class I've ever taken the concept is introduced and explained first before a student is encouraged to memorize a formula. When we learn what the number 5 means, we learn it by seeing 5 units of something and making the connection that that is what 5 is. We see this over and over in different ways until we have memorized what 5 means. A math concept should be taught before a formula is memorized. Memorization, however, is not the enemy. It seems to me that the enemy to understanding math has more to do with poor instruction or lack of understanding in the communicating of a concept. How well a concept is taught has to do with how well the teacher understands and conveys the subject and also how well the student understands what that teacher is saying.

I see nothing wrong with letting him explore and teaching him multiplication and division when you see that he is asking about it - not worrying at all about where a certain curriculum says you should be. I would just make sure that you have your bases covered on addition and subtraction so that he has a solid base in those. Try to move forward with those concurrently if possible taking extra time if necessary. With my own children I like to take "easier" subjects once I feel comfortable that they understand the concept and go off on tangents to see how far they can stick with me. For example if I am teaching about base 10 with regards to regrouping: I'll introduce 10 ones = 1 ten. After teaching that and seeing that they understand I'll go on about 10 tens = 100, then 10 hundreds = 1 thousand, 10 thousands equal 10,000 while showing them the place value until I can tell that they are frustrated. It helps me gauge how much they are actually grasping. You could teach addition, for example, and then expand on it showing how multiplication is an extension of addition and show examples to go deeper. For example: 4+4+4 = 12 = "3 groups of 4" = 3 X 4. Then you are teaching multiplication and addition side by side.

Thanks for sharing, wapiti. Great article! :)

Here is what I have so far: Grammar: Rod & Staff 5 Math: AOPS Intro to Algebra combined with Dolciani Modern Algebra 1960s Latin: leaning Henle I Spanish: Learnables 2 Science: RS4K Chemistry, Physics, and Biology (paid science teacher) History: History Odyssey Middle Ages Writing: WTM style or Classical Writing Homer I'm sure I'll be adjusting/adding to this by the end of the summer. ;)

My plan for my son this fall is to use Singapore Standard Edition combined with CWP 3 (new standard edition version) and IP 3A and 3B(US edition). When we want some more variety, I also plan to supplement some with Russian Math 3(currently on order from University of Chicago) and some of MEP (free on internet). What I like about Singapore is the way it encourages visually solving problems. The IP and CWP also get the student used to solving more difficult problems using bar diagrams and reinforce the ideas learned. I think there is great benefit in becoming comfortable with drawing pictures to solve problems. I like the puzzle-like and visual problems in MEP. I like Russian Math 6 so much that I am ordering Russian Math 3 just to check it out. Hopefully I won't be disappointed. Good luck. :)