::::waving::: Hi Sonja :) I think you should give the IP book instead of workbook a try in your situation. The problems start out easily enough, which should give her a confidence boost, and then lead up to the more difficult problems for a challenge. The IP book problems are also far more interesting than the workbook problems. For my 9YO, I find I more and more often am skimming over the workbook and going to the IP book, particularly as we get up into more levels-- currently 4B. We are into the decimals chapter, and he is looking at it and saying, "Well . . . since I've already done money, haven't I already done decimals???" Yes, son, you have. Off to the IP book we go. We don't have the want-to-do-every-problem issue. If we had that to deal with while doing the workbook as well as IP, we'd never finish a section. We also use the US Edition, and you know who his Daddy is :) We like it just fine :). You can always get the workbook later if you feel something is lacking, yes? I vote for give it a shot. The text has additional problems and reviews already . . .I doubt you will be lacking for problems, and there is always Khan Academy.

I forgot to mention that one thing I *did* do with my son was not ignore the issue. I did correct his errors as he made them, and made him (patiently, gently) rewrite things correctly. It took a lot of time and a lot of patience-- well over a year of rewriting 13 as 13 instead of 31. Reminding him to say no instead of on, and to write it that was as well. Pointing out that a backwards 2 could kind of look like a 5, and that 13 and 31 are not the same number, so that yes, it did matter, I was not just being picky. We used a system-- if I found a reversal (incluing hting instead of thing or a backwards 'p') I would put a green felt-marker "dot" under each thing that needed to be corrected, and hand it back to him. Sometimes, there were quite a few. If he wanted me to grade his paper with those items as correct, he had to fix all of those errors before starting his regular assignments the next day (when still in public school, I checked his homework for them and did this too; for him, it was a chance to make things right; it was also communication between myself, the teacher, and the special ed staff regarding how many errors he was continuing to make, because they saw a correct paper, but they also had a record of how many green dots were on the homework). The reinforcement seemed to help quite a bit over time. We never made it about making him feel badly about himself. Again, I was convinced he had dyslexia, and I would never try to dissuade a parent with concerns out of getting something checked out (I am a big proponent of "follow the Mommy gut"). But I was wrong; there is no dyslexia, no need for vision therapy. It turns out that it really was normal for his age, and he is now a voracious reader, and is learning to manage his dysgraphia without making the reversals of digits or blends or making letters backwards. But normal or not, I do not regret correcting him and helping him to work on it.

I hear your concerns, and I am admittedly unfamiliar with BF. I avoided the SOTW activity guide-- I spent a few hours sitting in Barnes and Noble leafing through it, and just thought, "I can see this for some kids, maybe, but not for mine." I'm also a tweaker-- I feel completely free to leave out something in any program that doesn't work for me, and to add in what does work for me, at any time. So what works well for me, may well not work for another family simply because our styles are different, and what turns on my kids could be different from what excites other kids.

For what it's worth, my DS did this same thing when he was still in public school as a second grader. I was fighting for his IEP for other reasons than this, but I was worried about dyslexia (there were other indicators too, I thought) and they told me over and over, even at the good school we visited for four months, "No, not yet." I worked with him at home with Handwriting Without Tears, and hung in there with him. He is now in fourth grade. We still do HWT. He does have a formal dx of dysgraphia, but the neurologist says that is not behind the reversals he was making; they were normal for his age (even though there were QUITE a lot of them and I didn't see them on any other kids papers in his classroom). However, he no longer reverses his letters or numbers, and he reads just fine. Yes, he is still dysgraphic; he probably always will be and will have to rely on his OT training to be able to write well. But the reversals have resolved, and he is NOT dyslexic. He did find relief in learning to write cursive (it is harder to reverse in cursive) but he did get it. Just be patient-- and tell the relatives in whatever manner is appropriate for your relationship and situation to kindly shut their traps and keep their unqualified opinions to themselves, as they are not nearly as clued in as they think they are. Try to remember that them complaining to you about this is THEIR problem, not your problem and definitely not your son's problem. Just because somebody not responsible for your son's education, however much they love your son, tells you there is a problem, does not mean there is a problem. Nobody can fault you for worrying (I certainly did, and I wasn't even homeschooling yet) and if there are additional indicators of a problem, a professional evaluation can even be in order. But in the homeschool world, beware of letting other people make their fears into your problems.

Science Explorer: I would call this the biology sequence: Book A: From Bacteria to Plants Book B: Animals Book C: Cells and Heredity Book D: Human Body and Health Book E: Environmental Science I am flying without the TE. There are so many different editions available I just shrugged :). There is a "test prep" section after each chapter in the student books, and you could easily just use those questions to create your own tests, or pull from the material in the books to make your own questions-- there are plenty of questions in the margins that highlight the most important takeaway ideas, essential vocabulary, and such. If somebody else has seen or used any of the TE's, perhaps they can chime in here.

History Odyssey is wonderful, and I would call it literature based. Although there are only 3-5 books actually assigned directly in the curriculum for ancients, there is a list of additional literature you are encouraged to pull from at your discretion to enhance the reading about each section. My son will always have additional history reading going on in addition to the assigned materials, many of which are pulled from their selections. DS11's test scores place him at post-high-school, and I would concur with that assessment; I would call him a strong reader. I don't get a workbooky feel from HO. It does begin gently, as it is aimed at the younger end of the logic stage group (each time period ramps up the work level a bit-- deeper outlines, literature interpretation guides and responses, more research writing and longer essays, etc). Although at first it may seem a bit simple or annoying... list these people and write one sentence about what each one did... these types of things are actually good note taking and study skills to develop. Reading about things is great, and should be heavily emphasized in history. History Odyssey accomplishes this goal beautifully. Discussing ideas and looking at different points of view in history is also of great value. By using varied materials (Kingfisher, TSOM, many of us add in K12 Human Odyssey, and a wealth of literature, plus the History magazines and library research) HO accomplishes this as well. I believe that including sequentially developed study, outlining, research, and writing skills makes History Odyssey a very well-developed program that can be used as-is or supplemented by the parent very easily. I am still baffled by the need for it, as it makes no sense to me, but apparently there was high enough demand that you can now even buy parent TM's for HO. Perhaps they have even more ideas for discussion and reading? Perhaps someone who has used them could chime in on that.

1. For each lesson, there are usually two sentences. It is fine to pick one of the two sentences and not do both. The instructions will often even say to pick the sentence of the more appropriate length for your child. 2. Don't ditch the copywork. I was sooooooo skeptical that 'copywork' sounded like something of a . . . (I am about to offend a great many people on this board) . . . carryover from right-wing fundamentalist gotta whop'em on the head and make'em miserable in order to prove that they're learning wingnuts (sorry, really, that wasn't nice, but it's how I felt at the time) that actually accomplished nothing. However, for whatever reason, I gave it a try, and despite my kids' complaining, I stuck with it. Guess what? It worked. I had one kid who has no diagnosed problems who nonetheless hated writing and despite being lightyears ahead of grade level in every other respect including reading, wrote about 4 grade levels below his ability, and one kid with professionally diagnosed dysgraphia and other language disorders. I started both in WWE 1 despite their ages (we accelerated it tremendously, 1 "week" per day) and they both enjoyed tremendous progress. DS11's writing today is night and day versus where he stood two years ago, as is DS 9's. 3. It is a slow, day by day process. Doing it, leaving it, coming back, leaving it . . . doesn't work so much. Sticking with it (think of it like practicing piano. You can't just do it once in a while and hope to make steady progress). If you stick with it, it really does work. 4. It really did work. I was really wrong. It did really work. It also wasn't nice of me to think of other people that way. The copywork also really did work. 5. Did you hear Diet Coke makes you repeat things?

I also vote Zenni. I ordered sports goggles or my son there that nobody else would make because of the prescription he has, and they are wonderful. So then I ordered myself Rx sunglasses and again, perfection, cheap. Now my husband and I have regular glasses on order. $12 for fantastic Rx glasses? I'm hooked.

Prentice Hall Science Explorer series is definitely secular, and they have many labs incorporated directly into the text (ie, demonstrate that muscles only pull, not push, by dissecting a chicken wing from the grocery store, all directions given right in the text). I have been teaching my kids from this this year for bio, and it is going really well; this series forms our "spine" to plan the year. I teach/we discuss on Monday to introduce the week's topic; Tuesday the each have an assigned reading from which they take some notes or outline. Wednesday is lab day and we go berzerk designing experiments and practicing lab technique and having a lot of fun. Thursday they do extended reading (no notetaking) from additional sources on the topic of the week-- it could be websites, library books, additional books we have around the house, videos, finishing experiments. On Friday, (usually started by Wed or Thursday) they each pick some element of what we learned that week and read more about it, and put together some kind of presentation-- it could be a drawing, an outline, a chart, a powerpoint, any way they want to get some ideas across is fine. But by the end of school on Friday, they have to gather up the rest of us and "teach" us all about whatever it was that was interesting enough to them to learn more about on their own. For example, when we started out with classification, DS9 did an activity where he looked up different animals and traced down Kingdom>>>genus>species to see how closely related the animals he picked really were. He guessed first, then did the research to see how well he had guessed. In his research, he came across the poison dart frog. So, in our week learning about classification and the introduction to cells (cell membrane, cytoplasm, nucleus) he gave a presentation on the poison dart frog. DS11 could not wait to become an expert on cytoplasm, and ended up teaching us everything he learned about it. This week we are looking at Kingdoms Protista and Fungi. I can't wait to see what they show me on Friday :). There is a lot of good material to choose from there! I get lab materials to supplement the ideas in the Science Explorer books (there are 16 of them, but you can find them used for as little as $4 including shipping on Amazon-- $.01 plus shipping) from home science tools and kits like the Elenco Slide Making kit, Owl Pellets, the Sheep Brain and heart, cow eyeball, Magic School Bus World of Germs (sounds hinky, but it provided us with petri dishes, nutrient agar, antibiotic packet, sterile swabs, and more). We are looking forward to a great (secular) year of bio based around these books.

That is exactly how I took it :). I was agreeing with you and just extending the converation!

Yes, she is an ideal associate. Never late, often works beyond expectations, always wants to get everything right, even if it takes extra effort, meticulous, and absolutely does not fight receiving direction; she thinks getting direction is natural and expected, though she is also not afraid to be somewhat creative to problem solve within her area of expertise, as she is an expert at the things she does well. Gifted people, as has been discussed extensively in a variety of other threads, come in many packages. There are many who do work hard, and take nothing, including their gifts, for granted. There are those who get used to coasting, partly because nobody ever takes the effort to challenge them. There is a syndrome in which particularly in late high school or college, some begin to become fearful of extending themselves, after a lifetime of being labeled "So smart" "Mr. Perfect" etc, not confident in their abilities and fearful of being discovered as some kind of fraud, and they therefore stop trying to do difficult things. Many are 2E in some sense, and battle to overcome some disability that is out of sync with their abilities or age in some way, or have some kind of reverse-compensating sensitivities or quirks. Being gifted is not exactly a key to automatic life on a platter, either in terms of ease or instant success. Hard work and social support still matter.

Have you looked at the sample pages? I think you can view some on the website.

Her IQ was <quite high> in high school; in our state, IQ alone was not sufficient for being identified as gifted (and the cutoff was 130 anyway on that measure). Her ability to accelerate was not hampered by her ability in math; it was hampered by the lack of instruction. When provided with direct classroom instruction, homework, and typical classroom work again, she was able to perform at a far higher level than the typical student-- ie, in senior year, she was able to tackle AP courses (before "everyone did it") that were truly college level that many students attempted and failed-- in those courses, her abilities really did pay off. She handled more coursework than many students and thus advanced farther in several subjects than the average population. She did go farther, faster, by graduation. She just didn't do it in an atypical classroom.

I had a friend in school who kept asking to be tested for the gifted/talented program. She could NOT figure out why she could not get in. She was a nearly straight-A student, and studied VERY hard for all of her grades. The kept telling her (kindly) that she was "just short of the cut-off." They tried very hard to explain to her it was a learning style, not a commentary on her abilities, but she never, ever got it. To this day, she is mad that she never got in :/. I could see she was not G/T despite her high achievements, and would tell her to just focus on her own goals and not worry about it, but that always got a grumpy response (since I had been in "Animal Training" from the beginning). She is now a highly respected lawyer in a large firm, having been highly successful in college and law school. She will still say "See??? I WAS right for that program!!" But, she wasn't. She would have failed miserably. The AT classes were not in her learning style at all. She tried once, to take a math class that was open to all students, not just AT, when the school opened it up to everyone-- it was an option to accelerate math by teaching it to yourself right from the book and take tests when you deemed yourself ready for each quiz and tests. We took the same quizzes and tests as the regular classroom kids. Where I completed the year's geometry course in four weeks, because I just "got it" as soon as I looked at a page, she struggled and struggled. She absolutely THRIVED in a regular classroom atmosphere. She was an expert in a classroom where there were clear expectations, a lecture, regular assignments, homework, assigned readings, set things to study, and incremental goals. In this self-paced math course, her grades started to tank. I finished Algebra II a couple of weeks later, and then started tutoring her, and between us, we got her through algebra I by the end of the year, her GPA intact. What she didn't get was that all of our AT classes were a bit like that. We sat in groups and discussed things. We read books from the library in history, sometimes different books in different subgroups in the class, and used our different perspectives to argue points in history. We combined history and literature together to paint a fuller picture, and might have to stop, drop, and write an essay about what someone else had read and presented the day before. It would have completely crushed her, because relative to her strengths and somewhat linear thinking, it was very unstructured, though our teachers' methodologies were very well-planned-- for us. This was how we, as a gifted group of students, thrived and thought. In the classes we had to take with typical students, we often struggled, found it hard to pay attention, and were not very engaged (and that is what she saw and was comparing herself to-- she would think, "I am a far superior student to these AT kids! They don't even pay attention in class or work very hard! None of them even outlines the book or takes notes!"). She was an accelerated student. A child of immigrant parents, she worked hard, and it has paid off. I feel she has NOTHING to apologize for or be ashamed of. She is highly intelligent-- probably well above average. She has achieved success in life, and met her life goals so far and lives how she has always wanted to live. But her learning style, I think, highlights the difference between accelerated and gifted, and the type of classes we had in our school is the reason why there was a distinction between accelerated and gifted-- there is a difference in how these groups learn. This is also why it can matter to a homeschooler. Even at home, kids learn differently. One kid may move faster through material by being very focused and disciplined and "by the book." Another may need to pull things seemingly from the ether and synthesize things from a wide variety of disparate sources. Not all gifted learners will learn in the same way either-- there is a spectrum of "gifted" and how they function, which is one reason why having a group of gifted kids in contact with one another can be a lot of fun, as they can play off of one another quite a bit, each bringing in something a bit different.

This is a very (as in completely) scripted program-- every word you are to speak spelled out for you in the TM-- designed for families who have had zero science background. The reading level of the materials is very low for the target age groups. The toys are fun, though they can all be purchased elsewhere easily for much less money. If you love open and go, all comes in one box, and lots of handholding, and your kids have not had much in the way of science, this program is very highly organized and logical, and it might be very right for you. Many other science programs will add up in cost once you buy lab supplies, books, and so forth. If you dislike scripted, rigid programs, want more interesting reading materials, and can find box day somewhere else, or your kids have already had exposure to science, you will probably be happier with something else. There are many other open-and-go comes in a box type programs available (check out NOEO) whose materials are more varied and interesting. One big difference between NOEO and NL besides the scripting, though, is that NOEO will be all one topic for the year, whereas NL may have an emphasis for the year but touch on several different disciplines across the year-- that is important to some families. NL tends to be a program people worship or dislike-- I'm in the dislike camp, because our family is not the target audience; my family has a science background, we found the reading materials to be too low-level even though my son has a reading disability, and I found I intensely disliked the scripted nature of the program (it even has a suggested script for the kids' answers) and I found it did not stimulate a lot of creative thinking despite the cool toys included-- we ended up ditching the materials and using the toys (level 1, which is mostly bio) on our own while doing NOEO chemistry. I would agree it is very organized and logical, with sound information and vocabulary; it was just not for us.

Next time you bring it up, if you haven't done so yet, use a number line... It is a very visual means of getting the concept.

He is 10? Keep at it. Mine went through this around then as well. I did switch him to graph paper for math, which helped, but was not a magic bullet (but did help). Patience, consistency, and time should help a lot... It is partly a personality/age thing, I think. At nearly 12, my son has improved greatly in that department. I think you are correct that there isn't any one curriculum that is a magic bullet or all wrong. Just about any set of books can get the message across if presented well.

As promised, here is a small sample of photos taken through the lens of the Brock Magiscope. Please note, this was done very casually-- using a hand-held ipod pointed through the eye piece sitting on the kitchen table, no fancy extra equipment, or even any attempt to hold anything stable, so given the circumstances, not bad :D

I call my MIL and FIL by their first names. I have to laugh, though I should not; it is kind of sad. Until this thread I never gave it any thought-- but I guess my husband doesn't really know what to call my parents. We have been married 20 years, and apparently he has managed to avoid addressing either of them by name. That must really take some effort. I know he feels extremely close to my parents; he was devastated when my Dad died, as he really looked up to him and they were quite close. To me, he just says, "your Mom." My parents called each other's parents "Mom" and "Dad."

Over the course of time, FYI, Fred is loaded with review :). You won't find a section labeled "Review" of course, but every concept covered is continually reused-- over and over and over-- and built into new problems and used in new ways. Fractions are used again and again throughout the Decimals and percents and prealgebra books. Concepts regarding area and volumes and feet and miles work into problems throughout the books. The author does not discard information he has introduced, but reincorporates it all regularly into problems throughout the book and in subsequent books. Essentially, even when introducing new topics, the entire book is also review, because each topic builds upon those already covered and uses them again. Khan Academy can also be a nice supplement/drill accompaniment to Fred if needed.

Before taking the bridges-- You mentioned that the problem with Saxon was getting him to work carefully and really pay attention to the work. Though Fred is self-teaching, make sure that two things are happening: 1. When he reads, he can read the fun story part as fast as he wants, but he needs to slow down when he reads the math. In fact, I have DS keep a separate section of his math notebook just for "notes" that he makes when reading the math sections of Fred-- this a great way of making him slow down when reading the math instead of blasting past it and nodding. I spot check this section of the notebook periodically to make sure he is doing it. In the rare cases when he has trouble, I almost always find a corresponding thin area in his notetaking. 2. When he does "Your Turn to Play," make sure he is writing down the problems and answers fully before even glancing at the answers. If your son isn't good about the discipline of doing that, get creative. Photocopy the problems and hand them to him on separate paper to work on before he gets the book back with the answers. Cover the answer portion until he shows you he has worked the problems through. 3. Make sure he actually sits down and reads the answers to "Your Turn to Play" completely. A lot of teaching takes place in the answer key; it is not just a check-box list of right and wrong, but a lot more explanation goes on there, including some of the why of things. Fred is absolutely a standalone curriculum here; we tried adding in other stuff such as AoPS as a supplement, but there was nothing there that Fred had not completely covered, and we found additional material to be unnecessary (for this particular learner). But I do make sure he is not just blasting right through it and nodding at the story line, or guessing at problems and reading the answer key and thinking, "Oh yeah, I got that." DS struggled with doing some of that when he first started Fred, until he really started to appreciate how working it methodically made such a huge difference in his comprehension and retention of the material. Now he has gone from Fractions all the way to halfway through Beginning Algebra, and he is doing great with it. It COULD be the case that Fred needs help with your particular son. But for a kid who is not loving putting the work into math, before just loading on additional math, I would make sure he is getting the most out of the math he is doing, or the problems could snowball-- a kid who isn't loving math may balk at simply doing "more" instead of doing it better. Good luck at finding a solution that works for you. Yes, Fred can work beautifully as a standalone curriculum, but it clearly does not work well for everyone that way.

Wow. Their address of "Myth #5" is . . . just . . . wow. How not apropos of anything whatsoever. Moving on to "Myth #6" left me 'myth'-tefied. Was that an attempt at sarcasm on their part? Not to mention the snark of explaining that Singapore is a country:001_huh: Moving along to myth#8 . . . geez . . . I know there are all different types of learners in the world, but they seemed like they were bragging about how hard it is for Singaporean kids to drill math through their thick skulls. I wonder what else those kids could learn if their parents and teachers gave them some credit?? Doing these books, PLUS outside tutoring PLUS extra worksheets, for the average and bright kids? We generally have to skip half or more of the problems in order to avoid going mad from overdoing it and doing unnecessary repetition from all the repetition in these books (and we use the US Edition, which from what I hear has less review than the Standards edition). I could keep going, but with the kind of attitude displayed on that website, this is about the last company I am tempted to purchase anything from, ever. They seem to have a very, very condescending attitude at least toward their American customers.

You can get a Brock Magiscope for around $130, depending on which variation you buy. I will try to find time later to post some photos I have taken through the eyepiece of it without any special equipment. I love it because it is easy to use, has great optics, is very durable, and because its genius illumination system does not require batteries or electricity, you can haul it anywhere easily, even to museums. You can use it for transparent or opaque objects. Focusing is a snap. I lve this microscope-- I used to do microscopy professionally as a genetics researcher, and this is not a toy.

The label is not what is important (well, not for most parents; there are always exceptions of course :) ). Understanding how your child learns is what is important. You may or may not need a test to help you understand the distinction between highly accelerated and gifted. There is a difference; simply working well above grade level is not gifted. Gifted is a special needs status; the mind of the gifted learner does not work or process information in the same way that a neurotypical but even accelerated learner does, and methods that work well for an accelerated learner will often not work well for a gifted learner. If your child is accelerated, just go ahead and work at his pace. Slow down when he needs to, and speed up when he needs to. Honestly, that is a piece of working with a gifted child as well, though not all of it. Working with a gifted child will make you 3/4 insane most days-- and being gifted yourself only helps you empathize; it doesn't actually help you predict their needs or where they will go next.

This part is so important it is worth repeating!! I too, got into an early mode where I felt, "Okay, now I want to fix everything!" I wanted to research EVERY needed therapy and test and rush him into all of them right away and ceaselessly and just . . . fix it. That's what Moms do, right???? I too realized I had to slow down. My child wasn't broken, and he didn't need rapid repairs. He was the same child he was the day before his diagnosis, and he was a child, not a diagnosis. For everyone's sanity (my husband, my genotypical child, myself, and my affected child) I had to back off and take a deep breath, and remember his first role in my life was simply as my child. Yes, I needed to deal with things, but not all at once, and not to the point of taking over our life and making his challenges the center of our existence.