Is she saying $30 (and is it $30 per day or for both days) total for both kids for 8 1/2 hours? If so, I would say that is way under paid, especially for my area! I realize you're on the opposite coast, though.:) That would average to less than 4 bucks an hour total or less than 2 bucks an hour per kid.

:iagree: with your post Colleen. I just wanted to thank you for donating to the above mentioned cause. Four years ago (on Sept. 17th), I gave birth to a beautiful baby girl who had a major heart defect. Our insurance covered almost nothing. Her bills totalled over $1 million for the six weeks she spent in the hospital before her passing. Friends of ours had a fundraiser and people from all over the country contributed money to our cause. That money paid almost the exact amount of expenses we incurred that were not covered by the state for our daughter. You did a wonderful thing.:grouphug:

I have so many of the same that are already listed. My stepmom says Wal-marts all the time. She also uses the "seen" one like Heather mentioned.:glare: I'm also with the poster who mentioned scrotum. I can't even say it. I don't know what it is with that word. So, for me, that one is a truly irrational irritation.:) Here's one that is not irrational but drives me nuts: when Christians refer to the book of Revelation as Revelations. It is one Revelation-the Revelation of Jesus Christ.;) Oh...and I've actually caught myself saying dh, dd, ds, etc. in real life conversation.:tongue_smilie:

OK, I hear what you're saying. But, if we're worried about the impression that this type of discussion will have on a unbeliever than we can never talk about spiritual things in the company of unbelievers. Frankly, if we're being true to the Scripture, then any conversation we have with the Word as the center will leave a bad tast in an unbeliever's mouth because it is foolishness to them. Fair enough but won't any conversation about the way to heaven being only possible through faith in Christ, and, by the way, I happen to have that faith also sound self-righteous? In other words, "I'm better than you because I knew enough to choose Christ"? I think it can sound equally self-righteous to a non-believer. Being a newer member of this community, I can defer to you on that. Frankly, though, any portion of Scripture will be controversial to one who does not believe in its authority. Believers should be able to peacefully discuss any portion of it. I think that has actually been beautifully demonstrated here as there has not been a single ad hominem attack and the discourse has been more than charitable. I understand what you're saying, too, but the difference may be that I'm not trying to seduce anyone. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. Incidentally, the topic just started as one member asking who else was Reformed. It turned into an exchange of different perspectives when some non-Reformed believers asked some interesting questions.:)

And this is why I said in my first post in this thread why I feel like I have to hide my Reformed self from my nonReformed friends.;) I don't know if you were inferring, Colleen, that anyone in this thread had a tone of being strident or self-righteous but I certainly have not seen that at all. In fact, the Reformed should be among the most humble because we realize how pathetic we are; how we have not one ounce of anything to contribute to our salvation but that it is all of God. "Some are chosen and some are not?" Well, that comes right out of Romans 9. There's no way around it. Is it that we should avoid talking about any "controversial" parts of the Word so that we don't offend the non-believers or the non-Reformed believers? I don't know.:confused: This happens far to often to me...my non-Reformed friends are allowed to talk to me about any non-Reformed position they hold because they think it's mainstream and all Christians believe that way. The minute I take on a Reformed flavor, they shut the conversation down. Shrugs shoulders in confusion at the double standard.

No, I don't think it does. In the scenario you describe, what separates the believer from the unbeliever? Simply that the believer made the right choice. That would mean that we are responsible for our own salvation and have reason to boast. Ephesians 2 tells us that our faith is not of ourselves; it is a gift of God.

Although TULIP discusses a systematic theology with respect to salvation, I certainly don't consider the understanding, or lack thereof, as a salvation issue. I would *never* say that one of my Arminian friends is not saved because they don't understand or don't subscribe to the 5 points. But, that doesn't change the fact that I do believe that the 5 points are an accurate Scriptural portrayl of salvation nor does that make it an unimportant subject to discuss. The whole point of the Christian life is to become conformed further into His image and the way to do that is to know who He is and to seek to see Him as He has revealed Himself. I would never break fellowship over this issue but will still continue to study it until the day I die. :)

That's dedication!;) :grouphug:

“At that, Papa stopped her preparations and turned towards Mack. He could see a deep sadness in her eyes. ‘I am not who I think you think I am, Mackenzie. I don’t need to punish people for sin. Sin is its own punishment, devouring you from the inside. It’s not my purpose to punish it; it’s my joy to cure it.’†(pgs. 119-120) I still maintain that this is a direct contradiction of Scripture. God does, indeed, punish people for sin and He "needs" to do it to remain just. For those whose faith is never placed in Christ, that punishment will be eternal separation from God. For those who do have faith in Christ, God does still discipline them for their sin. The ultimate price is paid in the death of Christ and we are reconciled from being children of wrath to children of the living God but we are still disciplined. (Hebrews 12:5-11) I hadn't been back to this thread since it had dropped to another page but thought I'd take the chance to respond since it was bumped back up.:)

Even if we presuppose that your above statement is correct, how do we get over the fact that those who are spiritually dead cannot choose spiritual life?

If there are people that God wants to be saved but they are not, doesn't that strip God of His power? He's not sovereign if man can thwart His will. Again, I ask, how can a dead person choose life? If man is spiritually dead, how can he choose God? I think that's the basic question where election is concerned.

Spurgeon once said something like, "If God painted a yellow stripe down the backs of the chosen, I would just go around pulling up shirt tails to see who I should preach to. Since He didn't, I'll preach to everyone as if they are chosen." This is the position each Reformed church I've been a part of has always viewed things. We don't have the mind of God so we obey the Great Commision. We realize that we are only the messengers but that God uses the preaching of the Gospel as an ordained vehicle by which He draws people to Himself. :)

On the choice issue...None of my Reformed friends have presented this analogy although they are probably all aware of it...:) Ephesians 2:1-3 says that were dead in our trespasses and sins. We weren't wounded or ill, but dead. If I were to set foot in a graveyard with a "magic medicine" that could bring the dead back to life and started "preaching" to those in the grave that all they had to do was make the choice to take the medicine, how many of them would respond? None because dead people cannot choose life. As the Ephesians passage points out, we are spiritually dead (this is from the moment we are conceived as all died in Adam at the moment of the first sin). We have no ability to choose life because dead people can't choose. The Ephesians passage goes on..But God, being rich in mercy....made us alive together with Christ... So, in my above analogy, it is as if I actually were to go around to each grave and administer the "medicine" to those who were dead to make them alive. Jesus tells us in John 6:37 that all the Father gives to him (in other words, those who He has made alive) will come to Him and He will never cast them out. So, spiritually dead people have no ability to choose spiritual life. Yet God makes some spiritually alive and gives them to Christ in whom they will always be secure. Now, I must get off and get ready. I've got a kid to get to debate camp this morning.;)

Didn't know if you meant that Calvin and Arminius actually argued with each other? I believe that Arminius was only 4 or 5 when Calvin died. If memory serves, the 5 pts. were also developed after Calvin's death. As a Reformed believer, I would never even think to judge another's heart and deem them going to hell. I'm well aware of the arrogance on both sides. That doesn't mean that we quit dicussing it. It means that we all strive to be humble.

:iagree: But I don't know if I can stomach voting for McCain either.

Reformed here and have been for 16/17 years. We currently attend a PCA plant church although our current pastor is an OPC minister preaching out of bounds. I really hate it that I can very rarely reveal this part of myself to my Chrisitan friends without them ceasing to be my friend. I listen to all manner of talk about the perspectives of my non-reformed friends but the minute I bring up my Reformed doctrines, it's like I grew a third eye.:confused: Oh well, now that I'm "out of the closet" here, I hope the nice comments and chatting don't stop.:tongue_smilie:

Good grief! People really need to grow up! Frankly, I'm part of a board that is pretty censored and it drives me nuts! It really feels like you are only allowed to post what the moderators and owners agree with and there are just areas of yourself that you cannot make known to anyone else. Sheesh!

This isn't directed at you, Pam, and I'm not in a position to comment on the Obama thing but I am a mom who watched her baby die. She wasn't a preemie but she was born very ill at term. I cannot imagine not having done what we did to preserve her life. When she was 6 weeks old, we had to make the heart wrenching decision to remove her life support and we sat with her, held her hand and prayed with her while she took her last breath. To hear of babies being left to die without someone to love them into the next life and hear people speaking of them as "expiring" is just heartbreaking. My daughter would have been four on September 17th.:(

I did explain several instances of it directly contradicting on page 2 or 3 of this thread. :) I'd be happy to discuss those if you disagree with them. ETA: my examples are in posts 5-8 on page two of the thread.

But, it directly contradicts the Bible as I believe I've illustrated above. :confused:

Beth, I'm sorry you got a negative rep. I can't see how you deserved that. You have been very gracious through the exchange.:confused: I would be interested, from anyone, who enjoyed the book and maintains that it drew them closer to God to support their view with Scripture. I've yet to see that in any forum in which I've discussed it.

Exactly!! Crud, crud, crud!! I hate living on the west coast. I need to learn not to visit my boards on nights like this.:glare: This exact same thing happened last night!

:) I spent a lot of time reading and re-reading and praying. The book came highly recommended by a sources that I love and trust. I still love and trust them but, obviously, have a very different take. See, that's what somewhat confuses me. How can a book bring people closer to Christ when it represents a Christ that is so different from how He has revealed Himself? :unsure:

I'll post one last section that I'd written: Jesus as an example: I admit to being a bit shocked by many things in this book including this quote: “Seriously, my life was not meant to be an example to copy. Being my follower is not trying to ‘be like Jesus,’ it means for your independence to be killed.†(pg. 149) Now, although we do need to set ourselves aside, we are definitely to follow the example of Christ. In John 13, He says, “I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.†He was speaking of the example of servitude He had just displayed by washing the disciples’ feet. 1 Peter 2:21 says, “To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His steps.†It seems clear that the life of Christ is absolutely an example that we are supposed to copy. After all, as believers, we are “predestined to be conformed into the likeness of His Son…†(Romans 8:29). As we follow His example of righteousness, service, teaching, praying, etc., we will enjoy the fruit of truly being conformed into His image. That is what the sanctification process is all about! So many of the theological issues in this book are core doctrines for the Christian faith: sin, the nature of God, the work of Christ, the purpose of the Spirit, the place of the Bible in the life of a Christian, etc. If my arguments were with peripheral doctrines, I would simply choose to disagree and move on. However, I truly feel compelled to speak out because the foundation of Christianity is at stake here. I hope some of that was helpful and explains where I was coming from in my first post. I pray that God is glorified through the discussion.