Its funny that you asked about martial arts. Our kids are very athletic and our dds did gymnastics for much of their childhood. Just recently they started a Brazilian martial arts class called Capoeira which is a combination of self-defense, dance and acrobatics (flips, kicks, handstands, etc...). Our youngest is also the 'runt of litter' as she calls herself. She is very petite and my wife and I are definitely the most protective of her. But she'll eventually sprout up like the others even if not as quite as tall. The other two have grown to adult height already and are fairly confident though also somewhat shy. We're going to have our middle dd start taking college courses her freshman year next Fall. So that will be a good opportunity for us to release the reigns more on her as well as a good learning experience and challenge. Yes, she's also the one who has asked about going to school abroad and is learning German currently. We'll have to wait and see where that goes as she grows more and considers various options. She struggles a bit more academically than the others. And we've told her that while German universities are free or very affordable in some cases, free does not mean easy. They have to work very hard in those EU countries while in high school and college. I do think she has the greatest desire of all three to get out there on her own at some point and see the world!

That's right, the college and scholarship essays. I wasn't aware that some of them require addressing career goals as they might relate to one's major. At the very least it causing them to think through some possible work related scenarios even if those aren't on the top of one's 'fun things to do' list. When our son was filling out an application for a STEM internship through the Navy, he was asked similar questions. Though he has not decided upon a single major. So, I asked him to pick his top areas of interest (computer science, robotics, math and physics). Then research specific careers related to those and pick several which stood out to him more than the others. I think that helped him to begin the mental shift from academics to vocational application. Otherwise its harder when simply thinking 'I like studying physics because its cool and fascinating.'

These are all good suggestions. We are learning as we go with them. Our son has done sleep overs with his buddies where they game and do goofy stuff all night. Though my wife is still more protective of the girls at this stage. I think when the next good opportunity comes along for our middle dd to go away with friends to camp, I'll encourage it. We did surprise her with her first airline trip alone to visit her closest friend who moved out of state. She handled that really well and enjoyed traveling alone. They also help cook on occasion, though that is something we want to do more of. While the bus isn't used much in our smaller community since things are relatively close, they do ride their bikes around the town. Our oldest rides to the college and then takes off on longer rides for exercise, etc... I may have painted a picture more strict that things really are. It's a bit hard to see the full picture online when you only have what was written to go on and sort of have to fill in the blanks. Though we do have more family rules than most. That's why I've been talking with my wife about the need to loosen those up for our oldest more now. He is very level headed and we do trust his judgement. Since he'll be commuting from home to college initially, there will be time for us all to adjust to his new freedoms, determining his own schedule, etc... I do expect that he'll continue to ask us for advice and guidance. But I also like the idea of asking him questions to encourage him to think through decisions on his own.

Its seems like all the answers have been a gradual process. Though I can certainly imagine points of greater acceleration. Maybe that will be more so for certain families like our own who have greater structure than most. So I find this encouraging since I cannot imagine it being some kind of 'instant' switch. That seems very unnatural. Our kids don't seem to mind the structure nor have they ever really complained about it. Well, except for our girls not being allowed to do sleepovers yet or them wanting more junk food on occasion. While I can see how giving them more freedoms over time would be easier, I think we'll really need to accelerate things for our 16.5 y/o. He does have more freedoms than our girls, is allowed to stay up later when he's studying for a test, etc... We also let him go out to an amusement park recently with his youth group until 1 AM. He's learning to drive. I've also begun letting him watch more intense action movies (PG-13). The importance of discussions, yes. I've begun having these more with him. For example, we've talked about how college students may be living on their own, managing their own time, pulling all nighters sometimes, can eat whatever they want, etc... Though I want to have more of these talks. We need to allow him more room to stumble now. He's finally getting a cell phone for Christmas which will have more responsibilities. And he's expected to work a job or internship this Summer. So we've been discussing these adult like activities more. My greatest concern is that we'll treat him like an overgrown kid once he's in college. Honestly, most college aged young adults seem like big kids to me anyway. Heck, I still remember being a 'big kid' in college! However, I was also very independent from an early age while growing up in a broken home. In fact, my wife and I had similar experiences. We both came from broken homes where our parents were either very loose with the rules or very disengaged and busy with their own chaotic lives. So we've probably swung a bit further in the opposite direction in terms of rules, freedoms, etc... due at least in part to the downsides we experienced in those overly permissive environments. Add to that the 60s (for me) and 70s for my wife and they were definitely wilder times. :tongue_smilie: :biggrinjester:

Hi, I have a question for the hive which has no 'right' answer. Rather, I would like to know your experiences with your kids as they went from high school to college aged adults. Did things change for you at a certain point in time regarding the way you viewed them? Like one day they were a 'big kid' and the next day they were an adult? For example, the moment they went off to college were they suddenly adults in your eyes? Sort of like a right passage? Or has that been a gradual process, easy, difficult, a bit awkward, or..? Some kids leave to college as young as 17 and its hard for me to imagine at this stage of parenting. Secondly, if they stayed at home after high school, did your house rules change overnight or was that gradual as well. Regardless of how quickly it occurred, was it challenging or fairly natural and automatic? Our kids are likely to live at home for a time while in college to help pay for it. I imagine these answers will vary by family as well potentially with different children within the same family. The reason I ask is that first and foremost I respect you folks and you've also been like an extended family. Secondly, as parents and the father of a 16.5 y/o son with two younger dds waiting and watching in the wings, this stage is totally new to us. We are used to them being our kids plain and simple though bigger now of course. Obviously they have matured since they were small children. But they are not adults yet either. When I hear folks on this board speak of their college aged kids as adults, free to live their own lives, make their own decisions, etc... it just seems so foreign, like its going to be a challenge for us. I therefore need to prepare for this major paradigm shift. Background: We've homeschooled them from the very beginning. Though they'll have attended our local CC while in high school. They are probably more sheltered than most teens/tweens. We also probably have more family rules and regiments than most. They have curfews, go to bed at certain times, wake together, we eat meals together, limit internet usage, limit social media, recommend age appropriate movies, books, reading materials, limit types of food they eat including sweets/snacks. We require some form of exercise as apart of their PE. We attend church together and they attend youth group separately. Oh, and we've never had to deal with dating relationships 'yet' of any kind! You get the idea. So now I'm telling my wife we are going to need to treat our son as an adult... soon. She then gives me this strange look like 'what does that even mean!?' Lord have mercy!!! lol :D

Yes, I think there are many nuanced situations that have to be considered in context of the child, their major, goals, rationale, etc... beyond simply I will only pay for 'X'. I don't think anyone has said that in the discussion. Rather, for some, they are asking their child to consider a practical major of 'some kind' even as a double major or minor. Art was used as a realistic example. I have a family member who majored in graphic art. She made an informed decision early on that it was going to be her career knowing the pay would be lower than most professions. Later into her career the glitter wore off after performing many daily receptive tasks and she decided to move into another profession. The carpel tunnel led to this among other things. However she still enjoys painting in her free time. Someone who majors in art should be aware of what that translates into 'after' graduation considering all of the pitfalls along with other options up to an including a plan B or secondary employable skill, from my perspective. That's a lot different than saying you can only major in 'X' or I'll not accept you if you major in Canadian Studies or Poetry. :tongue_smilie:

We also gave OSU a try this year with our middle dd. Its her first language course and she is motivated though still young. While she appears to be doing well in the course and seems to like it alright, there is very little opportunity to actually converse with the instructor or others. The once a week 15 minute skype/phone session just isn't enough practice for her. So I'm thinking about hiring a separate tutor or something similar to supplement the OSU coursework if we continue. By contrast, our son is taking Spanish through Homeschool Spanish Academy and he has a lot more speaking time along with personalized instruction. HSA is basically run like one on one tutoring service following their established curriculum. The curriculum is also A-G approved for California public universities. So its a very solid program and tailored approach. I sort of wish HSA had a German variant. We may look for something more like that next year. What we don't want are language courses like those described above which are intensively rigorous and time consuming. OSU and HSA are both really great in that regard. The WTMA German class sounds good. We may look into that for year 2. Though there is something to be said for sticking it out with the same program for consistency sake. I'm not sure how much different the S&S would be if we make a switch.

Jean, We definitely use Socratic questioning to help our kids explore their interests as well as consider the real world applications. I think that is also what Ruth described in her examples when providing career guidance to her students. Our approach may actually look similar to yours even if we have slightly different philosophies. Part of it is also due to financial limitations. For example, we'll have our kids start at the local CC while in high school and beyond. While there they are free to explore many courses of interest and its practically free to do so. Once a major is selected and we find a university that meets our financial requirements, they'll be given adequate time to complete a single or double major. Beyond that it will be up them if they choose to pursue other areas academically. The major difference I think for some is that we will strongly encourage at least one major to be practical. I really like the way katilac described her methodology in working with her dd who is majoring in art. Consider the business side of it as well beyond simply painting pretty pictures. As another example, from a hobby and passion perspective, I really love nature photography which is an art form in itself. I could spend hours, days, weeks, months taking interesting, compelling images of nature. Many times I've been asked why I don't consider selling my work or pursuing it professionally? The answer is, I have considered it and I simply don't like the business aspects of it. That would take away from what I enjoy most about photography which is being there in the moment and capturing the beauty of nature. There's nothing wrong with making it a career. In fact, I have friends who are professional photographers and know what they do to make a living from it. That just doesn't appeal to me at all professionally. So while I love photography, it is best enjoyed as a hobby. The same could be said for many passions and interests. Not all of them make good careers. ETA: Love the ballerina doctor who runs a pet shop comment. Our girls are still pretty young and all they can think about are animals and gymnastics. So I'm looking forward to their more practical side maturing. I caught just a glimmer of it earlier when I took them to a nature center and they met the park ranger. She was describing her work in preserving the environment to help the local wildlife and they really perked up when hearing this. Our 16 ds is very driven and STEM focused. Although he has no real idea yet what he wants to do, just that he really enjoys math, physics, programming and robotics. Those can all have very practical applications, so I'm less concerned with him than I am our girls.

8, please help me understand your approach. And please understand this is not at all for argument sake since I realize parents will set their own guidelines they feel to be best. Are you saying, like I think some others are, that you will fund *any* major(s) regardless of whether you think it a good idea or not? If so, will you still provide your rationale as to why another path may be more employable, for example? Then will you set some limits in terms of years you will pay for those majors? In other words, are there any educational guidelines at all, once in college? Thanks,

Thanks, Lanny. This looks very interesting! I was the one who started the other thread on the college board. I wonder what the costs would be like while attending there? Obviously cost of living should be more affordable.

It sounds like 'most' of us saying similar things regarding advising our children. It has more to do with matter of degrees once in college. Like most, I've seen the negative aspects of parents trying to control their adult children. However, I don't want to swing to the opposite extreme either with a laissez faire approach once they become 18 simply because they are legally an adult. We will still provide guidance making recommendations based upon our life experience. They will expect it. I guess the place there will be differences will be with what we agree to fund (any major) and to what extent (within 4 year, etc...). Ruth's four points make for some great areas of discussion when teaching them what it means to live, work and function as an adult in the real world. Most, if not all, our kids have no experience or knowledge of this yet. Of course they may have fanciful notions of the ideal job which may not be based in reality. My daughters love furry animals, for example, and would happily play with them all day for a living if there was such a job. So we help them learn about careers related to animals. After considering the professional options, they may conclude that being a professional dog groomer or veterinarian isn't for them. However, that could lead to other possibilities of related careers such as protecting the environment in which these animals live. Of course someone pursuing a PhD in Physics with emphasis in cosmology will have more long-term career 'alternatives' than another with a BA in ballet. You mentioned Data Analytics as a potential 'plan B' for your son, for example, if plan A careers aren't panning out. That is a very realistic backup plan. By contrast, if a student picks history simply because they are a history buff with no desire to ever teach, that is something I would advise more closely on. In either case parents are still actively engaged with their young adults rather than rather passively observing their whims without thought, guidance or input. Whether a parent becomes overbearing or attempts to control their children after providing guidance is another question. If we weren't helping to fund their education they would of course be free to major in as many things as they wanted for as long as they wanted.

I work with a number of those folks, one has his JD and was hired as a 'self-taught' software engineer. Another recent grad who majored in Cinematic Arts couldn't find work. So her CS boyfriend helped her find a job with us in software QA. Another is a father of five kids who has struggled financially for quite some time. His passion is writing and he's been published but never enough to really sustain his family. So he 'finally' found another job as a Business Analyst which I helped him apply for. He and his wife couldn't be happier now that he can better support them. I believe he still writes on the side. My supervisor has his masters in Physics and works as a software engineer Program Manager. He still dreams about physics and we have interesting discussions about it in terms of career possibilities.

This is my own take on it. So please don't think I expect others to agree because I realize that won't necessarily be the case. I know each family has their own educational philosophy and goals and I respect that. I also have friends and family who went in another direction. So I'm not trying to persuade or debate these points but rather simply discuss them. The problem, at least for me, isn't that there will be change. Most of us know that is a given in life especially as technology and innovation accelerate in so many fields. The issue will be more about eventually selecting a reasonable place to 'start' and to build upon for one's future. I think change is inevitable and healthy as one grows and discovers new interests. Speaking personally of my 'five' majors, I don't regret any of them in terms of the learning experience itself. However, I do regret some of the financial implications of those over the course of time through bearing the responsibility of paying them off. There was an impact on my family and our financial well being as a result. Could there have been a better way to fund them, perhaps? I want to help guide our kids in a better direction in that regard. In addition, I also do not want to fund a university education solely for the experience which is more based upon personal hobbies though they can certainly be explored in part as electives. If those 'hobbies' have a practical side, that would be great.

Ruth, Thanks so much for sharing these 4 basic principles which I also agree with and will be using to help guide our kids as well. They are looking to us for guidance as they explore their world. Hopefully, we can help them to make well informed decisions. The examples you gave are very similar to the things I've seen in the lives of my own friends and family along with quite a few other work associates. Sometimes, I've seen only one of those four present such as #2 and that can end up in a very bad situation. Growing up in LA, we had streets filled with disillusioned young stars/starlets who moved to Hollywood to make it big. Unfortunately, the numbers which actually become famous actors are very low. As a result, the homeless population exploded along with prostitution, drugs and so many other unfortunate things occurring in the lives of these young people. That's not to say some won't make it. But its good to go into to something like that with eyes wide open and a plan to survive in the meantime while waiting for that big break which might never come.

I think that is really going to be the challenge for me as a parent. In my case, my father was very overbearing in wanting me to follow in his footsteps as an engineer. Since I had no interest in that at the time, I think I picked widely different majors almost in protest of that pressure. The funny thing is, many years later after he had passed away, I did wind up working as a software engineer. I know I don't want to repeat that same pattern with our kids. Yet at the same time I want to provide good guidance and career advice. I think all parents have certain parameters in mind when advising their children which probably does varies based upon their own life experiences. Ultimately, as young adults the decision should be up to them since they will have to work in those areas (or not). ;) Sometimes they'll also have to learn life lessons via experience as many of us did.

Whoa, quark! How did I read your mind? lol That would be a huge switch knowing a bit of your son's journey and the decisions which led him to select Cal in the first place. But he's a super bright and passionate young man. So, it will sure be interesting to see where he goes from here. Would there be anything wrong with a double major in his case? That would be my strong preference. Math plus anything else. But I also know the UCs are pretty strict with the number of years they allow one to attend to graduate. Is your son more of an all or nothing sort of guy?

An interesting study actually found that "those who were open to change their major were more likely to graduate than those who decided right away." "Most students -- as many as 80 percent in some surveys -- will switch majors at one point during their time in college. According to the report, students who made a final decision as late as the fifth term they were enrolled did not see their time to graduation increase. Even one-quarter of the students who landed on a final major during senior year graduated in four years, the EAB found. Neither did settling on a final major during the second through eighth terms of enrollment influence students’ graduation rates. Students who declared a new major during any of those terms posted a graduation rate of between 82 and 84 percent." https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/08/24/study-finds-students-benefit-waiting-declare-major

Wow, four out of four! Your #1 daughter made a huge shift form art to engineering. I guess its hard for me to picture how that could not be a big deal. Was she always good at math and science as well artistic things growing up? Your #2 son really went all over the map! lol But then he found his niche and it sounds like it turned out nicely for him. I guess as parents, we almost have to be expect it to happen. While I'm sure there are some that stick with their original major, the odds are fairly high that a change will occur from what I've seen.

Yes, I totally get this. Not only do I understand what your relative went through, I've actually lived it reinventing myself several times vocationally. I did something totally different on the graduate level. I joke with my kids that I've had more majors than I can count. So they know as do I that its likely they could change majors or even waffle a bit while trying to figure things out. Its actually pretty normal with college students in discovering their interests. The point of the thread is more about being on the other side of that now as a parent and some of the challenges that can arise with these types of changes. The big difference for me as a college student was that it was *all* on me financially since my parents couldn't afford to contribute. So those decisions and associated costs I owned completely whether I understood fully the impact of things like student loans. Now that we will be helping our kids attend college, there are limits to what we'll be able to afford. So there is a financial aspect for us as parents as well as other considerations. In addition, as they say, hindsight is 20/20 when looking back on the various paths one's taken along with lessons learned. I hope I can teach our kids some of those lessons like being more aware of the downsides to excessive debt, etc... Or trying to find a job with a major that might not be that practical on its own without graduate work, for example. But even after all that they could totally change their professional goals, make seemingly big blunders and still land on their feet. I don't doubt that at all.

Thank you for sharing your daughter's story. I could definitely imagine being upset especially if it was my daughter who I raised and knew so well. So much more than some ... boy. You watched her grow and know her dreams, all the things she participated in and enjoyed. I totally get that you only want to help her to follow her dreams. I also fully understand that life is 'messy' and not always straight line. I know my life has been anything but a straight line. However, all those turns we take can actually help us grow and become more well rounded.

Jenne, Yes, that's a significant change. I can relate to the stress in thinking about having three in college at the same time especially with our limited finances available for each child. How did she even discover this major if you don't mind me asking? What you've just described sounds a lot like what our middle daughter would love. She's decided upon her own that she wants to learn German and talks about wanting to study abroad. And she's only 13. I'm not sure where she got these ideas. I also couldn't help but notice you are currently in CA while daughter is attending Northern Arizona U. I"m curious if you were able to take advantage of the WUE? I've seen them on the list of participating universities.

All, I have a question for you as parents regarding your son or daughter's stated majors of choice as you've planned for college. I know some of you have kids in college currently. What happens if all the plans you've made including the college selection process based upon their major changes once in college? Obviously, some kids simply don't know what they want to major in. So, I'm not speaking about this demographic of undeclared majors. Let's say you worked, toiled, spent considerable time and money to get your DC into a school which has an excellent program for their area of study. Then, after a few semesters they discover that its not really what they want to do at all? In fact, they pick something completely different! For example, they go in as a math major and then decide to switch into theater arts instead? This may even entail switching colleges for that other new major. Would you potentially be upset? Ok, let's open the question up a bit further to include less extreme changes. Maybe the change simply means significantly more time than expected in UG. What if the change would not be something 'you' necessarily would have recommended? Let's say its an area with far more graduates than there are jobs, etc...? And they don't want to go into teaching that subject (literature, music, history, philosophy, etc...). They simply just like studying that area more. If your kids did take an unexpected turn from their original plans, were there any challenges for you as a family, especially if finances were a consideration? Or did you just embrace those changes and move on. BTW, this is a hypothetical question. Though its one I'm looking at from a parent's perspective for the first time as opposed to that young college student who loved to change majors. :D ;)

Haha, but of course! Without adequate tea times what good is a math program, anyway? Who cares about sympatico 'tribes' and all that rubbish when they can't even get tea right? lol :lol:

Seriously, even with full tuition? That's seems pretty crazy. Ok, I had to see it to believe it. And well, yes. Its almost 20k for room, board, books and fees. For some of us, that's still a lot of money especially if you have multiple kids going to college. To be fair though, I've been seeing ~ 15k to be norm with some a little more and some a little less. I wonder if part of it has to do with the higher cost of housing in some parts of CA. Stanford, for example, is ~ 17k where housing costs are even higher.

Yes, absolutely. That's the feeling of cutthroat which was discussed in another thread. Its not just 'in his mind.' Rather, its the reality of some schools and their weeder courses designed to make kids struggle who would not typically do so. You brought flashbacks to my own experience in my first college chemistry course. I was taking that along with calculus, physics and other tough classes my freshman year. The assumption was definitely prior knowledge and those without it were left in the dust. That C I got was devastating and the teacher could care less. It was truly like survival of the fittest and I apparently didn't come as prepared as others even though those prerequisites were not mentioned in the course description. I've seen it in other college courses which actually brought students to tears and basically meant the ending of a dream they had to become a medical professional. If some cases there was no recovery possible given the program, their other courses, etc... They were effectively 'weeded out.' Whether its right/wrong is irrelevant especially when you are the student. Its simply the way that it is in some cases. And yes, that can be devastating.