I sometimes wonder if some of the hive members have average college kids with hopes and dreams who weren't necessarily super stars, top of their class, national merit scholars, came in with 5-10+ APs, a 4.x GPA, etc...? They didn't get into a top tier school but instead were perfectly happy to simply attend college. These kids may even struggle with certain subjects such as math, science or other areas? If they get a good grade in one of their challenge areas it may only come with tremendous struggle and tutoring? And while they aren't bad students, they have plenty of other interests beyond academics including hobbies which they are good at? Secondly, if you have one of these wonderfully average students, is it hard for them if they live with a sibling super star? ;)

I could definitely imagine this for certain companies especially for in-demand careers. This sounds both highly competitive and like a great opportunity for the right students. Honestly, I think we are speaking of a special population, the most highly sought after, top tier students. Many of the examples I'm hearing tend to fall into this category. What about the average Joe/Jane students whose GPA's fall under the 3.x+ requirement? For the majority of others, these same opportunities are realistically out of reach. I think that is part of the problem. As other have said and we all agree, internships are great! They are also limited and not necessarily attainable for all students. I think major along with industry demand play significant roles in availability as well (few select options vs. plentiful). The liberal arts major from a local state school may have a heck of a time finding something relevant, interesting and available during those summers when everyone else is looking. I don't have statistics for it, but I think its safe to guess a greater percentage of students do not get internships than those who do. Maybe their GPA was too low. Maybe they didn't have the mentorship needed to even be made aware of them. Or yes, maybe some just wanted to take any old job to pay the bills. The spectrum of students are wide. Is it their fault for not being better go-getters, their parents, counselors, the systems? I don't know and maybe it doesn't even matter especially once out of school. The harsh reality is they still need to find jobs. Are more internships the key to better job prospects across the board? Possibly. I personally think all majors should require them and provide better alignment with local industry. That is unless the major is something totally theoretical in nature. Certain fields already require this such as the medical field. Clinicals are an integral part of the education process and required prior to graduation.

I know he had some bad experiences during the internship. But I didn't want to pry to better understand why. Obviously that did not help his situation. he also has some LDs. Add to that his major in Sociology had 'very' limited prospects where he wanted to live near his home, friends and family. So he has been doing some major soul searching after facing a wall of rejections. This lasted for a good couple of years post graduation with a few false starts along the way. Now I think he is on a better track after taking some vocational training in IT. This is 'after' exploring all other options related to his major and initial goals including grad school. So, yes, he's learning to program now. Even though he realized early that's where more jobs were in his geographic area, it wasn't his first choice. But when faced with other lower skilled jobs, sales or no jobs, it began to make more sense. I just hope he sticks with long enough to get off the ground financially.

I agree that things have gotten harder especially if one wants to get hired by a well regarded company/hospital/organization right out of school. How is the recent grad supposed to know? This is where the old principle of 'knowing someone' is even more important, IMO. The old adage "its not what you know but who you know" still applies. I'm not suggesting little Johnny will get hired 'just' because he knows someone. But it does help to gain a clearer picture of life on the inside, when to apply (strike while the iron is hot), where to apply (a new project is just ramping up) and who to talk to (resume gets to the actual hiring manager vs. HR black hole). Then a personal reference can go a long way. Is this fair? Is life fair? I think we all know the answer to that one. Of course, the minimum GPA requirements still apply. But its amazing what knowing someone can do. Within large organizations, there are simply too many filters for most to navigate without some guidance/references or simply just sheer luck (right place, right time).

We have a minimum GPA and our company is large fortune 500 tech co. which hires many, many engineers from all disciplines. And for our more mission critical programs the requirement is even higher. I think this has probably become more of an industry standard, one which I personally do not always agree with. Life happens and its not always easy. What if the young student had to work to put themself through school, had some kind of major life event occur, etc..? But I don't make the rules. In those cases, the young engineer will have to take jobs that no one else wanted just to break into the field. Then once experienced, GPA will no longer be a consideration. Experience is king in our industry. Without it, companies have to look to other differentiators. I prefer to look at any practical experiences gained while in school whether formal or informal. This is harder for students who went through a program that was more theoretical vs. applied especially if they did nothing else outside the classroom. Pedigrees are irrelevant in these cases which unfortunately some rely on too much.

Yes, he had an idea of what he wanted to do and also did an internship. Unfortunately, according to him, the workplace environment was toxic/abusive and it did not lead to any jobs. Because we hire interns at work, I know the value of internships. I just don't think they always lead to a job for a variety of reasons. Sometimes there is just not a fit or there are no full-time positions available at the time of graduation. Other times the intern decides they want to explore other options. Regardless, I think they can help these young people gain some form of practical experience prior to graduation. Its just not a guarantee they'll find work especially in fields with limited job openings per the number of graduates.

Lot's of interesting comments regarding gap years. I've always thought of it as a good idea, generally speaking. I guess I'm still somewhat torn regarding the nature of that year. Obviously there are extremes such as goofing off, playing video games from the couch to traveling the world and/or volunteering for some worthy cause. The prior is not something I would support. But there may be something in between. And Yes, if we had the money to allow them to travel, backpack around the world, etc... I could see that this is probably the best time to do it prior to launching a new career or grad school. If things like gap years have increased in American culture, that could at least partially change underemployment statistics. The trend does seem to have gained popularity in the US. I think there are also other societal trends with more recent generations (Gen Z). An article I read discussed how this generation has higher expectations right out of school. So if those aren't met they would prefer working toward something else entirely than taking a job deemed mediocre.

Yes, it could be a different thread. So I won't comment much more than answer what seems to be a question. The reason I bring it up is that I've seen quite a few cases where I work that it would have really helped if those 'other' majors would have taken at least one programming class while in school. I get that not everyone plans to program nor do they envision working along side others who do. But as we all know plans shift after graduation. Quite a few of those other majors who cannot find a job initially wind up working for a tech company at some point in their career. Some are even required to program or at least understand the systems development life cycle (SDLC) which they invariably support. The lack of any formal training can still work out. But some basic background in computer logic can help provide a frame of reference to start from. Otherwise they can wind up with a dear in the headlights situation similar to landing on a foreign planet for the first time.

Yes, I've often wondered this when looking at average starting salaries for given majors. These are numbers which many universities use in their marketing. Do such statistics take into account those graduates who are unemployed and underemployed? Or are they only counting those who entered into a job which required a college degree of some kind.

Thanks for posting this report, Arcadia. It definitely provides more details regarding the overall story of underemployment for current grads. The first sentence of the abstract is really what interests me. "Though labor market conditions steadily improved following the Great Recession, underemployment among recent college graduates continued to climb, reaching highs not seen since the early 1990s." One of the most interesting charts is the Probability of Underemployment Among Recent College Graduates by Major. While its no surprise that liberal arts topped the charts, I would think business would do better among other majors such as environmental science.

Yes, I think there will be some redistribution. The Silicon Valley as well as other up and coming epicenters for advancements in technology and startups will continue to thrive. However, other counties are innovating as well, obviously. In addition, telecommuting is becoming more common. Add to that the unsustainable COL in places like San Jose and folks will move to other more affordable locations nationally with some international movement as well. To your point about tech, yes, not everyone wants to work in computers. I don't think either of our daughter have any interest in it as a profession. But it will still be an aspect of most modern careers regardless of major. Most white collar, professional jobs will require some degree of proficiency with computers, relevant programs, the understanding of how they work and sometimes the ability to customize those programs. I would say the same thing is true with regards to liberal arts training. While engineers won't want to major in literature, poetry, psychology, sociology and the like, its still important for them to have a good handle on human nature, technical writing and other such skills. kwim?

I don't think its just Gov't contracts. Otherwise there would be no point in working in the Silicon Valley at all. Facebook, Google, Intel, Oracle, Apple, etc... would have no need for employees in the US. Folks have been talking about that change for decades. But it hasn't happened. There is certainly offshoring and international companies have employees all over the world. But there are more specialized positions which will remain here for the long haul, IMO. There are many challenges in managing remote team overseas. The backlash has actually caused some companies to re-evaluate the number of such teams. Check back in 10 years and I don't think things will have changed that much in terms of all of these tech jobs moving overseas.

Yes, I was wondering that myself. Its hard to imagine 'not' adjusting for inflation since the value of a dollar was so much different in 1990 than it is today. Another large factor to consider is the relative value of a dollar in relation to cost of education in America then vs. now. Student debt has definitely ballooned which impacts the recent college grad's net take home pay. Six figure debt has become all too common. There are many articles discussing what its like to be living under six figure debt as a young grad. http://thefinancialdiet.com/6-people-really-like-live-six-figures-student-debt/

No, the percentage represents the portion (share) of the college graduates working low wage jobs: in this case recent college graduates. So, 13% of recent graduates are working low wage jobs. That number is up from 8.6% of that same group over time. The title helps clarify this for me - "Share of Underemployed Graduates in Good Non-College and Low-Wage Jobs."

That's why its even more important to specialize if going into IT. Simply aiming for a generalist job as a programmer will become more difficult. That's why its good to get cross-trained in other areas. This included industry specific niches or in specializations across industries such as cyber security, robotics, autonomous systems, data science, human factors, R&D, DBA, etc... There are aspects of US companies' mission critical assets and intellectual property that will remain state side. Offshoring more generic technical positions has been a problem for quite some time now.

Sorry, I probably should have shared the link. It's easier to see when scrolling the chart and then reading the description provided. https://www.newyorkfed.org/research/college-labor-market/college-labor-market_underemployment_jobtypes.html Basically, it's showing that low wage jobs (< $25k) have increased from 8.6% to 13% (peaked at 15% in 2010) for recent college graduates. In addition, good, non-college degree required jobs (>$45k) have decreased from 47.8% to 35% for these same recent graduates. So, recent college grads are being squeezed from both sides of the spectrum financially when entering the workplace. In addition, inflation compounds the wage gap. That is, unless they've adjusted for it.

I've been out with family all day. There are lots of interesting posts regarding the original question. Yes, I'm sure there are more formal studies with larger population samples and associated statistics on the topic of underemployment and low wages. Regardless of the exact percentages, there are economic trends which are important to be aware of and consider. Here's another set of numbers from the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics showing related trends: I think this something to be aware of as we guide students going out into the workplace. Of course there will always be cases where students 'choose' to work at a lower wage for a variety of reasons. But I don't think those same reasons have changed much over the years. Some will join the Peace Corp, get married, have babies, work a low wage job temporarily before going to grad school, etc... Those aren't the kinds of cases I'm observing. Most of those are obvious and common in terms of choices. Rather, I'm referring to those who are actually trying to find a decent job upon graduation and are having a harder time doing so. I fully agree that things like internships help and I encourage students to get as much 'practical' experience as possible while in college. However, there have always been graduates who don't get that much experience for whatever reason. And then there are those who have to an extent. But the internships didn't lead to a job. It happens. Many things are common to 'all' generations. The things I'm referring to are the changes in the workplace and economy including new challenges when landing one's first good job. I think it would be a bit naive to think things have always been the same economically and that there won't be new challenges for current and future graduating classes. That's the part that interests me. From the Education Advisory Board: 3 reasons college grads are struggling to find jobs—even in a better economy. 1. Companies don't recruit on campus the way they used to 2. The skills gap is wider than ever 3. The economy is changing faster than people can -- https://www.eab.com/daily-briefing/2017/03/14/3-reasons-college-grads-are-struggling-to-find-jobs-even-in-a-better-economy

Roadrunner, I think times have really changed since most of us parents graduated from college and entered the work force. And they will continue to do so at an even faster pace as we become a more globalized economy. That's why its also important for us not merely to apply our older 'conventional' wisdom when advising students without considering these trends. One of the biggest areas of growth I am seeing is in cross-disciplined careers. The classic example I've used is Data Science. These types of jobs require a combination of humanities and analytic skills. In addition, one must be hungry to learn modern practices, improved methodologies. Not only accept that change is occurring more rapidly but embrace it as a way of life. So, yes, humanities are very important in this new economy. But they need to be tied to something very practical such as technology. Computers are such a fundamental part of the workplace now that I think every student should be required to take a least one or two programming classes. I know Obama was pushing to bring CS into the high schools as a core subject along with more traditional sciences such as biology, etc... I would argue that more jobs of the future in the general sense will need CS skills over biology. Though these other sciences are still important. Here a few great points about the changing job scene of the future from Pew Research: 1. Employment has been rising faster in occupations requiring more preparation. 2. Employment and wages have increased most in occupations that require higher social or analytical skills. 3. The majority of American workers say they will need continuous training to keep up with changes in the workplace. I work in IT and I constantly see the need for greater humanities skills. However, there are many in the industry, especially the aging IT workforce, that: * Do no play well with others * Do not like to write or document any of their work * Resist learning new things and oppose change even when for the better This severely limits their ability to rise above their journeyman status where they basically do best when left alone. By contrast we've hired liberal arts majors to assist in IT and some take the initiative to learn new disciplines. They either study on their own or take new classes which really help them to move up. The ones that did the best actually took some IT type courses and worked on related projects while in school even if liberal arts major. Its this left brain / right brain cross-disciplined activity that I think is going to prove highly in demand in the future. Tech companies need to become more human factors oriented. And liberal arts related industries need to become more tech savvy. No longer can they rely on the old guard in doing their 'one thing' and that only. Musicians are leveraging tech through social media now to get their name recognized, creating their own websites. The same is true for artists, authors, etc...

Grad school throws a whole new dimension into this multifaceted problem, one which is different I think for current and future generations. Why? Well, I've seen the trends in many industries now looking at the bachelors degrees more like a bare minimum (maybe not even that) - similar to what an AA/AS used be. With the bar raised, graduate degrees are becoming more important to break through glass ceilings in a wider variety of professions. And this push has become so prevalent in some careers like business, that MBAs don't hold the same weight they used to. They've become somewhat diluted if not combined with some in demand niche. Add to that online graduate degree options for working professionals and this makes the basic bachelors degree even harder to market. Let's face it, not every new 21/22 year old college grad is ready or financially able to attend grad school. That is a privilege for those who do and are also motivated to continue with school. Some quite frankly are burned out on school as was the young man I was advising. That was my first bit of advice. But he would have nothing to do with it... at least at this stage of his life. I think about this a lot actually for our own kids. Should they really be targeting grad school more so now. I know it depends on many factors such as goals, major, etc... But it still seems more important for them in many professions than it was in the past.

This is part of the problem I've seen. Some don't know what they are truly good at going into college, right? Ok, so maybe they take a number of electives their first two years. Then they pick a major that they find 'interesting' at least at that time. Of course they are still very young with little life experience. As the article mentioned, many never fully research the job market their major leads to. Maybe they simply enjoy the classes and somehow think it will all just come together upon graduation like manifest destiny. I don't think logic or practicality weigh as important even if considered to some degree. The CSU in this case is the very well regarded CalPoly SLO. Still, that doesn't guarantee a decent job. One of my family members graduated form UCSD with a major in international business and had a heck of a time finding a decent job. She was very sharp and outgoing. Still, after several years of underemployment she eventually went back to grad school and studied to become an elementary school teacher.

I've been thinking about this more after advising a young man in finding his first 'real' job since graduating over a year ago. He graduated from a well known state school with a liberal arts degree and could not find a job. The harsh reality of the job market sent him into a tail spin both psychologically and emotionally. Fortunately, he has started to climb out now after going back to school and getting some vocational training in IT. While the economy has recovered quite a bit since the great recession, there are still quite a few underemployed and underpaid millennial college grads. One statistic I found stated 39% of graduates from 2014-2015 earned $25,000 or less. That's a harsh wake up call as their welcome into the real world of the post college workforce. This is especially difficult when compounded with college debt. "Here’s the strange part: The National average starting salary is about $50,000 When you view the statistics by major, the average starting salary for EVERY major is above $25,000 So here’s my new question: how can 40% of graduates be making less than $25,000? Leave a comment with your theory!" -- https://medium.com/@TheTonyFerrar/why-are-so-many-college-graduates-underemployed-and-underpaid-d203260b078f

The short answer is: a lot! :D

Yes, especially if the cost ends up being 2x-5x more!

Nan, I really like the idea of household rules for adults including college age young adults. This makes perfect sense and is something which kids who move off to college often forget. For example playing loud really music might disturb others studying or playing basketball indoors off the walls isn't a good idea.These are some typical behaviors I discovered firsthand while living in my first dorm with some *very* immature college freshman. They were finally free from their parent's rule and now living on their own. That meant they could act as crazy as they wanted to and boy was it fun... for them! Talk about overgrown kids! I couldn't wait to move out of that animal house dorm situation. :001_rolleyes:

This is perhaps my favorite of the Q/A's. It also relates to my prior discussions regarding changing majors and double majoring. It makes a lot of sense appealing to my practical side. Question #8: What about a double major with Mathematics? Answer: Combining a mathematics major with another major can be a great idea. Mathematics can complement the study of many other subjects, and it can make job applications or applications to graduate programs in any subject look much stronger. Employers and graduate school admissions committees know that the study of mathematics develops strong problem solving skills, comprehension of abstract concepts, and creative thinking ability. These are all highly desired qualities in applicants to almost any field or industry. If you are majoring in science, engineering, finance, economics, political science, or a social science, such as psychology or sociology, then you will find that the coursework in your major relies heavily on math. In order to have the best opportunity to do well in those courses and absorb the material in these subjects, it can be very beneficial to take math courses that have applications to these subjects. In fact, it is often the case that in disciplines such as these the use of mathematics becomes more pronounced as one studies the subject further. Consequently, students in these subjects are often limited by the amount of mathematics they know. The more math you know, the further you can progress in any discipline that uses mathematics. Besides these majors, it is also common to have double majors who combine their math major with a subject that is very different from math, such as Music, Dance, Art, English, Theater, or Journalism. Mathematics can often serve as a nice counterbalance to majors in the arts or other creative fields. The study of mathematics involves a great deal of creativity, and it is not uncommon for math students to also be interested in other creative endeavors, such as art or music. In addition, since jobs in the arts and many other creative fields are often difficult to get, a double major with math can help diversify your skills and provide greater assurance of getting a job after graduation.