Thanks again, Beth! You know I have to say I was horrified when a few weeks ago I tossed an envelope to my oldest (8th grade) with instructions to address it and he had NO IDEA what to do! Obviously his ps wasn't using Rod and Staff! ;) I think I'm going to go with Classical Writing (OK, or maybe Classical Composition). Even though I plan to send ds10 (the one I'll be hsing next year) to private high school after 4 years at home, perhaps we can just continue on with the writing program so he will get all the benefits of it. Writing is *such* a crucial skill, I just don't think I can leave that to chance!

Many thanks for the response, Beth. I think the "modern v. classical" is most helpful in figuring out what exactly these programs offer! I have another question... does Writing Strands (or some other writing program) cover practical writing skills (letter writing, addressing an envelope, Thank You notes, a letter to the editor, etc.)? Is that in the R&S Grammar scope and sequence?

Let's imagine you had two 10y/o children of equal writing skills. You took one off for four years and taught him using Writing Strands 3-6. The other child used Classical Writing for the same four years, using Aesop, Homer, the Poetry course, then Diogenes. What would happen at the end of the experiment? What would be the differences, if any, in the children's writing skills by the end of the four years? Which child would likely have an easier time picking up, say, Lord of the Flies, reading it, and producing a coherent, engaging essay on an assigned topic? ~Marcia, Full of Questions :) Mom to Six Great Kids

There seems to be such a wide range of opinion on science! I suppose I could tack some science reading onto his afternoon, and we could do a lab during our afternoon time. I was really trying to keep things uncluttered, though. I guess I need to keep on thinking this one through!

OK, so I am looking for a science program that is ...user-friendly ...open-and-go ...doable in a once-a-week-for-an-hour slot ...at the middle school level Is there such a thing? I had thought I would use NOEO, but it looks like it's designed to do a little every day. Thanks! ~Marcia, Mom to Six Terrific Kids

Thank you Regena! That was a wonderfully encouraging post. :) As for spelling, he's a natural speller. All his basic words are set, and he will be reinforcing spelling with his vocabularly program (Vocabulary for the College Bound Student). And yes, I was planning on doing 1hr of grammar (pretty casually though, mostly oral discussion of the grammar lesson in either R&S or the Michael Clay Thomas grammar; I've ordered both! ;) ). I've debated over logic, and while I had originally planned to do the recommended Mind Benders exercises with him, I reconsidered that decision after reading LCC. That being said, I may add them in if we need to this year, and we will definitely begin logic the following year if he wants to stay home. On the other hand, if I find that this is too much, we may drop the vocabulary and Kingfisher History outlining project, figuring that Latin will cover the vocab and our read-aloud will hit the history well-enough. Working w/ Mama 1hr math/latin (break, violin) 1hr grammar/writing 1hr read aloud (History)/French (lunch) 45m fun subject (M, Science; Tu, Art; W, Poetry; Th, Music; F, Prepare Topical Presentation) Daily Independent work 30m Bible reading/copywork 15m vocabulary work 30m History reading/outlining and reading (1 novel per week, and for weekly topical study) That all comes out to about 6 hours total, 1hr of which is independent reading and 30m of which is being read to.

OK! Thanks! :)

My older boys are going to be reading it this summer! I can't wait. :)

I am only barely knee high to a grasshopper in the homeschooling world. So this is a total novice's viewpoint! Once we had decided to keep ds10 home next year, I started researching homeschooling. WTM/CM/LCC/Waldorf/etc. Everyone seemed to be saying "this is The Best Way and if you do this, your Children will turn out Optimized for the Long Term." It was overwhelming and confusing and I began feeling just like I had when my first child was born -- overwhelmed and confused. If I didn't co-sleep, would I really leave him feeling mistrustful and fearful at night? If breastfeeding didn't work, was he doomed to a life of physical ailments? If I never spanked him, was I rejecting Scripture for man's philosophy? etc., etc., etc. A few years into my parenting journey, I read my gazillionth parenting book which said "If your parenting books have left you feeling confused, disheartened, and doubting your own common sense, throw them away." That was the first time I felt empowered as a parent. Anyway, the point of all that is I have experienced that in miniature over the last month/six weeks. I started out thinking a 100% WTM approach was right and anything else just crazy. Then I started reading about other options, and some of what they offered seemed reasonable, too. Then I started feeling fearful of doing it 'wrong.' Now I'm coming to that "OK, look. This isn't rocket science, I can figure it out. He needs the three R's, and he needs some history. He needs Latin and he needs some fun subjects." So I guess at the end of the day it's looking like I'm going to homeschool like I parent -- by looking at what others suggest, applying my common sense, trying it out in our family with my child, keeping what works and unapologetically tossing what doesn't.

Wow, a lot to think about here! When you say the Guerber books were too much, how were you interacting with them? I was really just planning on reading them and leaving it at that. No testing, no writing, just using them for daily read-aloud material. What I was thinking was that I could have him 'do' Kingfisher, reading and outlining 2 or 3 sections a day, which over the course of 180 days, would get him through the whole book. That would be primary history assignment and, I hope, would give him a broad overview. Right now he's just had ps history, i.e., as far as I know, they've done pilgrims and the Wild West, plus a smattering of redemptive history from Sunday School. Could he read the Miller/Guerber books independently alongside? He reads extremely fast (i.e., through a Redwall book in 3 school days or a weekend at home). If I just gave them to him, no pressure, whatever he retained out of them would be bonus. Then he would be ready to go into Omnibus I next year (when he will be academically a 7th grader/12yo, although we're holding him back a year; yes, it's complicated!), and we could really slow down and take our time/delve deeper, and he would have some familiarity with them. In other words, maybe I should get them, let him read them at his leisure this year, use something else for our read-aloud time, and then use them next year alongside Spielvogel when we hit Omnibus?

Perhaps this is a dumb question, but how do you *know* what needs to be accomplished during a year?

Thank you for the reply! Are the books too unwieldy to do in a 4 year history cycle, or rather not meaty enough? I was looking at Omnibus for year-after-next if my ds10 stays home through middle school. I am really excited about that program!

I am looking for a history text to read to ds10. Can anyone highlight the differences between SOTW I-IV and the Christine Miller/Guerber texts (Story of the Ancients, Story of the Greeks, etc)? He has a very high reading/comprehension level (tested at 12th grade level), so I am also wondering if we need something meatier? Is there such a thing as a well-written history text that is engaging rather than academic and dry (yes, Spielvogel, I'm looking at you!)?

Around 10 for very short periods (15-30m). My oldest is 13 and I would be comfortable leaving him for an hour or so, but probably not longer.

I adore Wind in the Willows! We have read it to dd8 and ds6, and the older boys have read it on their own. I really, really love the descriptive language, and that it stretches the little ones' vocabulary and comprehension skills.

VERY helpful replies, thank you all! It's funny because I was looking at some of the lesson plans (such as Latina Christiana) and thinking "um, doing the vocabulary isn't going to take 10 minutes!" but then I figured, hey, what do I know? So I allowed more time. ;) For outside activities, he will be taking violin lessons and 'Perfectly Polished,' which is a social graces class, as well as continuing 4H. He also wants to take karate again. I really haven't started looking into what co-ops, etc are available here. Some of it is that I am viewing this as a test year, to see if hsing is a good fit for me/him/our family. If it is, I will probably pull my two little ones (currently pre-K and 2nd) out the following year. THEN I will really hit the hsing scene! If it isn't, I want to be able to extricate myself as easily as possible. ;) As for the independence issue, I was concerned that giving him too much independent work was sort of, hmmm, lazy on my part? I don't know. The music thing was mostly his idea! He wants to do a segment on opera and the great composers, so we'll do 9 weekly lessons on that and two other semester studies on the ballet and folk music. We have talked about the schedule and he is excited to learn Latin (his older brother is taking this at his private school) and French. Math is non-negotiable, of course. He is very interested in writing as well and I think that will be a hit, but yeah, it probably won't take him an hour, even doing some grammar alongside. The thing he is most interested in, and I have given him a lot of input on this, is the weekly presentation/unit study. I've let him choose the topic for about half the weeks, and I have to say that is where he will really dig in! And if the math and Latin take more like 20-30 minutes, are we going to have school finished in ~2.5-3 'mom' (i.e., half hour each math, Latin, French, Writing, elective) hours a day, plus his independent bible, history, and reading? Our tentative choices are... Latina Christiana I First Start French Singapore Math Classical Writing w/ R&S Grammar alongside for History he will be outlining the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia (which he read as soon as it hit the mailbox!). I also want to find some time to do a SOTW or possibly the Christine Miller "Story of ___" series read-alouds. Maybe since we won't be doing as much as I think, we can squeeze that in! :) I suppose I will look back at all this planning and laugh. I'm sure we will find our groove come fall!

To review, I am bringing my ds10/5th grade ps'er home next year for what will be a trial year of hsing. I've scaled down my ambition for what could reasonably be crammed in one year's time. ;) Here's what I'm looking at... Working With Mom ~3h45m/day 45m Latin 45m Math 1hr Writing M-Th/1hr Science on F 45m French 30m Elective (Book Discussion on M, Art on Tue, Poetry on Wed, Music on Th) Afternoons free on Friday for a brief topical presentation for the family Daily Independent work ~1h30m/day 30m History plus 1 reading selection per week 45m Bible/Catechism copywork/Scripture memorization 15m Violin So that's something like 5h15m per day, plus his reading. Do I need to scale down more? Could it be beefed up? Also, I am having trouble conceptualizing how this actually works out. I have no idea how long it will actually take us to work through a lesson. For example, is math over once he 'gets' the concept, or should we move on to the next lesson if we still have time? ~Marcia, Mom to 6 Amazing Kids

I have a 13.5 year old ds, and we are working on similar issues of appropriate/inappropriate interactions with his younger brother. While it's true that they don't know their own strength, they absolutely *have* to learn that there are limits. For a big offense such as this, we try to go with accountability, repentance, forgiveness, and punishment/reparation. While some have suggested that this situation can be left to lie at the forgiveness stage, I think punishment and reparation are not a bad idea. Our actions have real-life consequences, even consequences we did not intend. When your son chose, in the heat of anger, to pick up a doll's bed and throw it AT your other son, he (in my view) morally obligated himself to fall-out from the consequences that would result from that choice. If he broke the bed, he would have to replace it. If he hurt his brother, he would have to make that right. In this case, the damage to his brother was quite severe, and the cost to your family quite high. I would probably tie the length of his reparations to the length of his brother's dental work. I am always mindful of the fact that I am raising someone's husband and someone's father. I do not want to raise men who say "I was angry and so I _____, and I didn't mean for ______ to happen so it's really not my fault." At some point, they have to have 100% control of their anger, aggression, and impulsivity. Violent acting out is never, never, never acceptable. If we don't teach our sons this when they are young, how will they hold themselves to this standard as husbands and fathers?

IMO, essay test questions (which are essentially all I ever had in my university/grad school history/lit classes) are often based on notes/lectures/information given in class. An ability to organize and reformulate someone else's thoughts is critical to success in that area. Coming up with your own ideas about Whatever-It-Is is much broader endeavor (since it would cover everything from literary analysis to creative descriptive writing to researching a particular topic), but once the information is present and an outline made, the writing process is essentially the same whether the information comes from an individual's creative mind, outside research, or from a source text.

We're looking at about $1000 start-up, with $100 or so per month for additional reading sources. I'm one of those strange breeds who really likes to keep books after I've read them, so I'm not a big library-goer. Even so, it will be saving us substantially over putting him in private school (6K and 12K per year would be our two local options), so I'm not sweating it!

Next year will be my first homeschooling! So I've been planning and tweaking and ordering for a few weeks now. I'm still betwixt and between on some choices... Latin: Latina Christiana Math: Singapore Math (or Saxon?) Grammar: R&S 6 (or Michael Thomas' Grammar?) Writing: Classical Writing French: First Start French Those are our basics. Extras will be... History: Reading through Kingfisher History Reading: WTM history-linked reading list Vocabulary: Wordly Wise Art: Toss-up between R&S ArtPac & ArtAdventures at Home Music: We'll be doing 9 weeks each on representative masterpieces: opera, ballet, composers, and folk songs

Unwieldy and impractical, yes, but we can't disregard it just because it doesn't lend itself to a simple understanding of the situation. I do think that any of the 'isms' can be religious, broadly speaking. If pressed, I would call religion the 'organizing principle of one's worldview,' (or something along those lines!) and for some women, feminism IS that principle. For some people, racism may be that principle. And because humanity is large, I don't think we're going to find neatly packaged definitions for the big issues like this. I also think that this broad understanding can coexist with a more narrow view of religion as "a set of beliefs centered upon the supernatural, specifically supernatural deities" (or something along those lines), because I think we need a term to understand those types of belief systems as well. If we want to reject the broad understanding of religion and call these ideologies "worldviews" instead, that's fine, but I don't see that it makes our task any easier. We still need to understand that a worldview is centered upon *something,* that this *something* is (at least in all the ideologies I can think of) something which transcends the individual, and that whether that something is the environment, women's rights, the advancement of humanity, communism, or Jesus Christ, it provides the foundation upon which the rest of the person's worldview rests.

I think it depends on how you're defining the term religion. If you limit it to a narrow "concerned with the supernatural/divine/God/gods/goddesses" then no. But there is a broader use of the term, as described here... Sociologists and anthropologists tend to see religion as an abstract set of ideas, values, or experiences developed as part of a cultural matrix. For example, in Lindbeck's Nature of Doctrine, religion does not refer to belief in "God" or a transcendent Absolute. Instead, Lindbeck defines religion as, "a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought… it is similar to an idiom that makes possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments.â€[6] According to this definition, religion refers to one's primary worldview and how this dictates one's thoughts and actions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion The flip side of the "Christians call secular humanism a religion to even the playing field" is the "Secular humanists don't call their belief system a religion in order to more freely impose it on others." So long as secular humanism avoids the 'religion' label, its adherents are able to advocate for its promotion in every aspect of culture while avoiding the separation of church and state question. I have no problem with this!! When a person is clutching at straws and Hitler is the last one in their blaze of defeat, then yes, it's a move of desperation. What I have also seen, however, is a legitimate use of Nazism for illustrative purposes being rejected because of this idea that if you talk about Nazis then you are obviously grasping at straws. You're not always at the end of your rope when you bring up Hitler! Sometimes he IS an appropriate example! :) Hope you have a wonderful day (evening?) at work!

GothicGirl, I don't mean to split hairs here, but this is what you had said, that bringing up Hitler ends an argument. I agree with you that there was no need at this point in the discussion to bring up Hitler, but it doesn't mean that the poster loses the argument or that the argument is over. It simply proves Godwin's law -- to wit, Hitler made it into the discussion. :)

Godwin's law says that as discussions continue, the likelihood that Hitler/Nazis will be brought up/used as points of reference or comparison approaches one. "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's law doesn't say that you *can't* mention Hitler. It doesn't even say whether it may or may not be appropriate in a given circumstance. And regardless, it's not a proscriptive law (i.e., telling us what we *can* or *can't* do, like running a red light), it's a descriptive law, which merely describes the way Godwin perceives people's interaction. There times when using an example from history, including Nazi Germany, is particularly useful. There are other times when it's used in an inflammatory or exaggerated manner.