You got 99% of this right about me (the OP). I'll clear up the 1%. 1. I did use Saxon as a teen and was leaning towards it with my own but did want to see what was newer (and potentially better) than Saxon. I AM open to new ideas and haven't even ruled out Singapore!!! I agree that there's no questions that the Asians (as a whole) do better on math skills than we do here in America so they definitely do something right, thus my own consideration of Signapore. 2. This teacher didn't use Saxon in high school. He taught Physics and Chemistry and an advanced mathematics course which he WROTE himself (and is published). 3. This teacher HIGHLY supports homeschooling and thinks its the best way to go given what passes for education in MUCH (not all) of our country. 2 out of his 5 kids homeschool their kids and 2 of them aren't in a position to be able to do so given their jobs and the other one I know nothing about. 4. I did write/email to him about whether he was familiar with the other math curricula and he says he is and has to be as he has tutored kids using all sorts for years. 5. He did say that, done right, any of the curricula would lead to mastery, but the RISK is when you have a parent who attempts to avoid the RIGORS (the hum-drum, boring, "teary" part) of SOME (not all) of the math skills. It was THIS ASPECT of the MASTERY programs that are risky as they TEND to lend themselves to clustering the skills in a shorter period of time. He didn't SAY ONE math program or another was the WORST for this. He was speaking in a general sense that -- IF A PROGRAM attempts to ease the rigors and make math fun and easy and only 20 minutes a day, etc., then it is USUALLY one that places a kid AT RISK for not keeping the skills long term. Again, he didn't mention any of the "other" (non-Saxon) as definitely doing this. He just knows Saxon DOESN'T Do this. Perhaps, an earlier post-er is correct in that he DOESN'T understand the "mastery" concept at all. (I regret I even posted it, quite frankly). 6. To bolster than anti-Saxon folks (and to be fair) , he did say that he occasionally sees a kid (esp boys) that are just too fidgety for Saxon and that it just will NOT hold their attention and that other programs might be a better fit. 7. This whole thread has gotten out of control. I only wanted to see what other (non-Saxon) maths were like (as I've never put my hands on one) to see why I see the increased supplementation. I'm 1000% sure that given 100 students (who applied themselves 100% to THAT course of study) that grow up on Singapore and 100 students (who applied themselves 100% to THAT course of study) that grew up on Saxon, if one controlled for all other variables, that they'd likely do equally as well on standardized tests in the future. The programs (intrinsically) are likely equally as well at preparing a kid for math. My only reason for hopping in mini-debate was that I do indeed take issue at a few of the comments (outright and implied) that have 1.) knocked Saxon for taking 2 hours a day (when so many faithful users swear this isn't the case) and 2.) that a child can gain a mastery of math in doing math only 20 minutes a day 3.) that the rigors/boring WORK of math skills can be eliminated where there's never a time of dread/boredom from our little darlings. To me, that's like saying we're going to grow our own big vegetable garden and enjoy loads of fruits and veggies all year and never have times of dread and misery out in the heat while weeding. You can't get something for nothing. You can't learn to play piano in only 20 minutes a day (not too well in MOST cases). So....FOR ME, I'm not so much pro-Saxon and I'm against anti-Saxon. It's fine if you've tried Saxon and it just apparently didn't click or go well with your kids and you went another route. That's very understandable. A person isn't detracting from their child's math education if he/she goes with a non-Saxon curricula. Again....I'm not so much pro-Saxon as I don't like the bashing of it. And, I suspect many of you feel the same way about your own curricula......you likely really don't care what a person uses themselves or WHY they quit using what you use SO LONG as they don't BASH your choice based on their own experience with it. Long live Singapore! Long live Saxon! Long live Math Mammoth! Love live RightStart! Long Live MUS! Love live _______ (insert yours here)! So....let's all let this one die a (natural) death, eh? I'm SOOOOOOO sorry I posted my old teacher's 2 cents. I only meant to defend the point about things needed to be revisited/reviewed over time (and my likely assumption is that all math curricula do this!!!!!)...so I shouldn't have posted it and his comments (out of context) could be offensive --- I did it hastily and without enough thought and I'm sorry.

I think by delusional he was referring to anyone who thinks that a kid can master math without the use of the repetition spaced over time, so my guess is that he'd say any teacher whether home-teacher, public or private school teacher, who feels that the repetition is not necessary would be in that category.

I bought the Startwrite 5.0 software a few months ago and we'll be doing the D'Nealian/Modern Manuscript in upcoming fall (K). The Startwrite tells one where (red dot) to start the letter. I've been guiding him myself having him start on the red dot, but I don't use the whole "down around monkey tail" vernacular. Do I NEED to buy the D'Nealian book that clusters letters in the similar sets (similar strokes) and says the "make a monkey tail" etc. or can we just wing it? In short, is Startwrite sufficient in and of itself in the area of proper stroke and letter formation? I ask because I've read on here that some people said their kids picked up bad habits in their handwriting for various reasons and I'm wondering if by just doing Startwrite if I too am "winging it" and if we are "at risk" for these same issues down the pike. Any thoughts?

I wrote to a friend of mine who taught physics, chemistry and upper level maths at our high school(back in the 90s) for many years before his retirement. During his retirement he volunteers with an online tutoring service for kids of all ages and he says many of their clients are homeschooled kids. Since I highly respect his opinion, I emailed him this week about this issue, namely Saxon vs. other math programs and I thought his writings on the subject were interesting enough to share, so here it is for what it’s worth. He stated he was quite familiar with Singapore, Math Mammoth, CLE, etc, that he hands-down suggested I go with (and STICK with) Saxon. He wrote, "We learn things by repetition spaced over time, whether it is writing, piano, violin, history, or math, or true love, or matching colors. Repetition spaced over time requires more time and effort, so some will claim they can do it easier and faster by clustering the concepts (mastery) and mastering them firmly in a shorter time. I even saw an advertisement for learning languages in one easy session. They are capitalist pigs. Why some homeschoolers go the other route? They think they can beat the work needed to learn by repetition spaced over time: Learn it in one group of lessons clustered together (mastery approach). A child can learn the concept and get the answers right in the short-term, but this isn't how it STICKS in the brain of a child. It has a distinct organic (physical brain development) component ---- the brain makes "pathway" if you will in the areas specific to math skills that are "carved out" over time. (This is a simplification of the brain’s hippocampus, but you get my drift). You can't learn math skills this way ---- they just will not STICK in the long haul. Practice (repetition) is the only way to master, and the practice has to be spaced over time. Many homeschooler moms are living in a delusional world of their own making, and you can't do anything about it. We learn by repetition spaced over time. If the kid can handle Saxon, stay with it. Life is not easy. Saxon is slow in the earliest years FOR A PURPOSEFUL reason, but Saxon gets more enjoyable as the years go by and I've yet to meet a single mom/dad who, having stuck with it K-12, looked back and had anything but praise for Saxon. You won't either if you start and STICK (in the tough early years) with it." Now...I know this'll calm everyone down a bit-----;) (hey...it's just ONE MAN'S OPINION!!! so simmer down and :chillpill::chillpill::chillpill:)

Here's our tentative K line-up: Phonics: Saxon Phonics K Math: Saxon Math 1, flashcards, and some Abacus activities Handwriting: D'Nealian (Startwrite 5.0 software) Bible: Bible Memorization, A Child's Story Bible

:bigear:anyone?

I order it on Monday and would like a few more reviews for good or ill. Any takers? Also, if you are a user, how long on average does it take you to do the program's lesson?

Thanks for the replies. I've been looking into curricula as we begin hs'ing this fall (K). I grew up (graduated in 94) with Saxon. My school dominated all regional schools in math. Our class' ACT scores (in math) so impressed several local schools that thereafter 2 (that I know of) changed over to Saxon. I personally made a 35 in the math area of the ACT!!!...that's not to brag, but just to say that EVEN I did that well in math and no one would have said I was mathy K-6!). So, no question I know Saxon works. I well recall 7th grade when we began Saxon how it kicked our rears for a while as we had not done it 1st thru 6th. However, we soon got on board. Math BECAME one of my favorite subjects. I loved Saxon math. It turned out good students. Several of my close friends (then classmates) are now engineers, architects, etc. (in major corporations) --- and that was from a rural Mississippi public school (I graduated with 88 people!). All of my close buds (with whom I'm close enough and still in contact with) have said in past conversations that they feel we had an awesome math background. One of my classmates was the chief architect for the new CIA building (built about 6 years ago), another is a mathematician whose job is to balance the distribution of weight on warships, another is an electrical engineer with Exxon, another is a phD geologist with Chevron, another is a civil engineer, (I was a RN/MSN nurse before SAHMhood)--- all this to say that our high school math program well prepared us to be great problem solvers and to use math. All this to say that I had a definite bias towards Saxon, but seeing how I graduated almost 20 years ago, I felt that I needed to look into the newer options since the 80s and 90s. I haven't read Liping Ma (??spelling??), but I did read Cathy Duffy's review of Saxon K - 3 and how it didn't sound as highly recommended by her (www.cathyduffyreviews.com) as some of the other programs. However, when I looked into these new programs I saw all the increased use of supplements, thus this thread. What I DON'T get is why the concern (however mild) over whether younger pupils get the word problems? I'm assuming that many of the people on this forum embrace some (or all) of the philosophies of classical education where the younger kids are supposed to be memorizing facts/doing drills and learning concepts that they don't necessarily fully "get". (i.e. When my child learns that George Washington was our nation's first president, I doubt he really comprehends the concept of nation/president and the power and authority and significance of such a title). I've heard references to the use of supplements for word problems in elementary! The LOGIC stage (middle school) is really when a child's brain can process (well) the application and logic necessary to solve word problems. These are just my thoughts having not researched this area (or read Ma). If this is the main complaint of Saxon -- that its alot of rigorous, boring drills for kids in the grammar stage, then it sounds like what I'm looking for still. And, if folks are supplementing other programs looking for word problems for elementary student, then --- IF I go with those programs, I won't be supplementing for these skills. (now if my 9th grader isn't able to "apply" math to everyday situations, then I'd be concerned). Bottom line, I won't rule out Saxon due to drills, repetition, it being "boring" or not having enough pictures (I know NONE OF YOU SUGGESTED THIS!!!), it being bland. In elementary, I'm looking for drills, repetition, spiraling, non-flashy, etc. If I personally rule out Saxon, it will because I find a program BETTER than it in K-6 for drills, repetition, spiraling, non-flashy, etc. In fact....it may even appeal to me that it doesn't do too much word problems, etc in those early years. I want my child to learn those basic facts well in those early years, those basic skills of rapidly adding, subtracting, dividing (not calculator dependent), etc. I want my kid to be as good at head math as my 93 year old grandma who can do a 3 figure sum in her head in NO time flat. If I look at a math program and feel its goal is to do les of the "boring" drill and repetition in favor of the word problems, application of concepts in elementary, then it'll not be in my shopping cart. In short (too late, i know)....that's my research....to see which math programs I think fits with the classical model of the pol parent/grammar stage of development. Again.....(even I don't get any takers on this last post), thanks for the input on the supplementation issue. Disclaimer: The above are just my thoughts after I read this thread. I realize that I didn't hear the non-saxon folks saying that they NEEDED to supplement or that their programs were inherently inadequate.

(ooops I didn't spell Singapore correctly in the thread title.....) It seems that while doing my math program research (trying to decide as we begin K in fall), that among Saxon users there is little supplementation TO the Saxon. With the Singapore/MiF/RightStart/other programs, there seems to USUALLY be supplementation with other programs/materials more often. Saxon seems more "self-sufficient" as users in their post (and signatures) list it alone more often. What's up with this?

Thanks canucks! I thought I didn't get any takers on this thread. I went ahead and ordered it. From what I've read -- reviews and such ---- it's exactly what I'm looking for and when i saw that they worked hard to make sure it met state/national standards, then I was even more pleased. I know it was a bit more expensive, but science is my son's favorite subject, so I'm springing for it. Thanks for looking it up and for the info on the table of content comparisons. I think I'll go ahead and get it and if too advanced save it for 2012 when he's in 1st grade. ( (Edit: just realized I should have PM'd this......looks like a self-bump......oooops).

"Mrs. Dolly" again......thought of one more addendum. The problem I had with the luggage is that when I got to the library checkout, I'd have to flatten it (lay it on its broadside) to upzip it and then"flap"/lid would be yet another addition to my taking-up-too-much-square-footage issue, so as I unloaded it it I'd have to watch that other patrons didn't trip over my luggage and flap while I did my 8 squats to get my stuff out and onto the check out table. Also, the books would all slide down to the one end during transit and it wasn't quite as tidy. I have a little pouch thing tied at my top handle where I put our few DVDs as they'll slide off the top, but otherwise my books get on the dolly and I bungie cord them in and off we go. Good luck.

Oh...that bolded part reminds me. My first cousin is now 14 ish (born 1997). He's a totally normal kid, but I was talking to his mom about when they were babies and she told me that when he was a baby she could sit him in the middle of her bed (no rail), go take a full bath, and when she got back he'd be in the exact same place. That he had NO desire to move, explore, etc. and it really worried her. She took him to two specialists about it and they didn't suspect any problems/nothing came of it. May just be a temperment thing, but -- I'd mention it to the doc just to put the issue out there, but it's likely just that he's like, "I'm not hoisting this 24+ lbs. for THAT!"

thanks!

My neice didn't even bear ANY (none whatsoever) on her legs until she was like 20 months (worried us all terribly), now she runs amuck and is quite athletic at age 4. I read that research shows that the longer a child delays walking (delays NOT secondary to abnormality), the more likely they are to be athletic. They did some study on the NBA players back in 2000 - 2001 ish and found that the VAST majority were delayed walking and crawled for a statistically significant longer time than other age-matched kiddos. Aand that they didn't necessarily begin CRAWLING early either....the point was the longer they DELAYED walking in general. That was a while back....but it seems like they walked in the 16 - 18 month range on average (but I could be wrong on this last point). But, just to be sure there's nothing up I'd just run it by the doc at my next visit but most likely that just isn't his thing just yet.

What does MEP (math) stand for?

I bought a little dolly for this very purpose. Its earned me the nickname, "Mrs. Dolly" at the library. It collapses (the handle) to be about 14" wide and 18" long-ish when stored in my van. I just get it out, elongate the handle and voila! I just put my biggest book on the bottom and stack the rest on top and roll away. Before this I had a little zip up luggage with wheels but it perished.

I'm curious, after looking at this poll, about this: Why, in their 2010-2011 humongous homeschool catalog under math products, does Rainbow Resource say regarding Saxon Math, "The most popular homeschooling math program hands down!" (this is the product's first sentence). This little poll didn't prove this......and I would think this forum is a fairly good place to test/poll such. Hmmm...Deep thoughts.......(where's ole Jack Handy when you need him).

What has been your favorite PHONICS program for early elementary? You can vote more than once. Same disclaimer as math poll.....I'm listing my top 10 "suspects" of popular programs, but I know there are other goodies out there, so if your pick isn't here, just write-in your fave. Thanks! (for helping me in this debate)

Please give me your vote on your favorite math program for early elementary. (I admit in advance I don't know all of the favorites, so I'm listing the ones I'm most considering....I'm SURE there are many other GREATS out there). (One more disclaimer: I realize there are two Singapores, namely the Primary Mathematics and the newer Math in Focus. This poll is meant to just assess the general Singapore approach so I didn't list the two versions/types). (Now...if I can just figure out how to add the POLL!!!?!!!......)

I've never put my hands on this. Could this be used for K or should we wait until first grade?

We love Hal Leonard Student Piano Course and Alfred Premier Piano Course. I had posed this same question to a phD in piano performance friend of mine who teaches at a university and she said that during grad school she had to research every method thoroughly and submit a paper on each. Her result was Hal Leonard to be superior to all.

I've helped my brother-in-law sell his home recently using sharpmls.com to get it listed on the multiple listing service and it sold within 2 months. The MLS is what professional realtors use/post so by getting your home on it, it exposes it to realtors and to shoppers who search the MLS themselves or search available listings through sites like www.realtor.com, etc. Currently, I am helping my parents sell their home (just listed it this week). To see it, as an example of what your listing might look like going with sharpmls, go to www.sharpmls.com/114579. I think it's quite affordable too and it will ultimately save you thousands. Once on the site, it has a section which mighy answer your other questions. As far as the closing, I bought a kit from Office Depot for selling your home by owner that contained numerous forms you'll need. It wasn't as tough as I thought. Also I checked out a book from library on the subject (before I bought the Office Depot packet). It is overwhelming at first. I called a few realtor friends and got some advice too. Pros and cons both ways. Good luck. If sharpmls isn't available in your area, try www.fsbo.com.

I'd like to hear from those of you whose math instruction bore fruit in the area of testing high on standardized tests. Looking back, what math methods/programs prepared him/her for their success as measured by ACT / SAT scores? (I know it's hard to know what they scored in each area....English, Math, Reading, Science, etc., but perhaps some of you moms recall this tidbit esp if it occurred in recent years).

Starting K in fall and I've narrowed it down to Phonics Museum or Saxon Phonics. Haven't put my hands on either. What are your thoughts?

Fair Sunshine by ...???Jacques???? (can't recall his name, but it's a different sounding name). Good book. Also, I like Mary Slessor of Calabar John Paton, Missionary to the New Hebrides Hudson Taylor William Carey and Shadow of the Almighty (by Elisabeth Elliot) comes to mind as well.