handwriting or pre-handwriting?

We just finished Grammar Island yesterday and will start Sentence Island soon. It has some writing assignments, but not enough to completely replace the daily writing that she currently does, especially considering how slowly I expect to move through it. Plus, the writing assignments are typically only a few sentences except for the "write a story" exercises which I think will be too difficult for my DD. I have WWE, but it just isn't a good fit for us. DD's writing mechanics far outpace her ability to summarize. I could tweak it (do level 4 dictations, combined with level 1/2 narrations, but that much tweaking isn't worth it for me.) Can you tell me more about the Writing Man series?

It sounds like many of you really got a lot out of the audio lectures that wasn't in the books. Was there more information in the lectures, or was it simply the different presentation that helped? What about for someone who is not at all an auditory learner? I have a hard time learning by listening. I learn better by reading. Would you still recommend the audio lectures?

I'm no phonics expert, but I'm teaching my four year old to read, and she's had or has all the same reading issues as your son. I think that it is just developmental. I think that my daughter is reaching for meaning when she reads. She knows that reading produces words that fit into sentences that make sense. As she is sounding out words, she is also reaching into her brain to find a word that matches that sound and makes sense. Unfortunately, sometimes that quick little mind of hers finds a word that makes sense (to her) and fits the small portion of the word that she's decoded, so she thinks she's found the word and doesn't bother checking to see if it really fits all the letters on the paper. Let's look at your example: The text says, "I sit a lot." The child decodes the first two words correctly. "I sit ..." Then the child scans ahead and the word "a" doesn't have much meaning. She keeps scanning and starts to decode the next word: "lll ... ooo". Ah ha, she knows a word that starts with "lo" -- "log" so she never bothers to decode the final letter. Then that clever mind automatically fills in the word "on" to make grammatical sense -- "I sit on a log." Now the brain thinks that it knows the meaning of the sentence, and the exact words are discarded but the meaning retained. The result: "I sat on a log." There is less "guessing" when working with individual words because there is less context for figuring out the word, so she relies on phonic decoding more. Still, however, if the word resembles another familiar word, sometimes a "guess" will pop into her brain before she is done decoding and she doesn't understand that the word she is thinking came from the depths of her memory and not her eyes. Since my daughter is still young, I'm not worried about it. As she gets faster at decoding she will be able to decode the entire word before that quick brain of hers suggests a similar sounding/looking word. As she is able to decode more words, she'll be able to read fast enough to read sentences that have meaning so she won't be left grasping for meaning in a random string of words. For now I'm sticking to short, age-appropriate reading activities and gentle reminders to slow down and read the words exactly as written. BTW, I think that it sounds like your son does know, in general, to read from left to right, even if he doesn't it in other non-reading tasks (including writing). Look at what he has read from left-to-right: "I sit a lo..", "I get", "I pop", "cat", "dad". Does he always read letters/words in random order, or only when he can't figure out the meaning fast enough for himself? As for continuing or dropping reading lessons, I agree with Katy. You don't have to do reading lessons with a four year old, but you can if you want. It sure is nice when little ones can entertain themselves (and a younger sibling) with a book.

Thanks. I guess I was thinking that if I eliminate DD's current writing activities, her writing would go to Zero, and in response people said that six year old's don't need to write much. BTW, I got the Games for Writing book and played one of the games with DD today and she seemed to like it. At least she was giggling most of the time. We'll see when the novelty wears off.

Ah, I see where you're coming from. My DD is in a totally different place. The mechanics of writing (penmanship, spelling, capitalization, basic punctuation, etc.) come very easily to her. Her written sentences sound just like her speech -- she doesn't simplify her thoughts just to get them on paper. Her creativity and organization are not as strong as her mechanics, but she is still at grade level with them. Ah. God has truly blessed me with this child. No school-related meltdowns. Mostly whining and complaining because she would rather play. Thanks for the long explaination. For a while I felt like everyone was saying that I make DD do too much writing.

I skipped the counting sections for my daughter when we started Miquon. According to the lab sheet annotations, the main concepts in the counting sections are one-to-one correspondence, the sequence of numbers, and how numbers are represented/written. If your child knows those things, you can safely skip the counting sections if you want. You might want to add extra free play with the rods so that your kids can learn the number for each rod. You can make up your own sheets, or just find a game / activity to do to practice the skill. For drilling math facts (after the understanding is there) you can get drill worksheets online. I added Miquon to RightStart, and we got through spurts of each. I try to used DD's attention span and the clock as a judge of how much to do rather than number of pages. Some days we do an activity and no pages. Some days we do one page. Other days she really gets a concept and she does 3+ pages. I'm lazy so we go through the workbook sequentially: just do the next page.

From reading the recent poll and other threads on MCT, I get the impression that most of the younger kids using MCT are either tagging along with an older sibling, accelerated in language arts, or both. I haven't heard of a child who reads and writes at a 1st or 2nd grade level also doing the full blown MCT program without an older sibling. I think that this is one case where the homeschooling practice of using a kid's age (vs academic level) to determine grade can be misleading. I think that MCT is a great program that can appeal to a broad range of ages.

Yup, I'm using MCT Island level with her. Yup, DD's journal is the only tool I have to diagnose DD's writing. Yup, I see gradual improvement in her journal (although I don't think that it is the result of MCT yet.) I guess I don't understand the emphasis that I should have DD write only if and when she enjoys it. If she couldn't form her letters yet, it would be appropriate to have her practice handwriting for a few minutes, even on days when she'd rather play. I'm asking for the same amount of time spent writing, only at her working level.

Thanks. She's in the habit of writing for school, and I want to keep that up. I am just questioning value of the type of writing that we currently do, and what to replace it with. That's one vote for beginning a writing program!

Thanks for the clarification on the wording. Based on the results of the poll it looks like more people are using MCT "for a grade below" than "for a grade above." (E.g. a first grader using Island level would be a grade *below* and fairly common.) However, when reading the replies to the thread, it seems like more people are using MCT with children "working below grade level" than "working above grade level." (E.g. a first grader using Island level would be a grade above, and not common.) So, different interpretations of the wording of the poll might have skewed your results.

We have the rods, and I tried to get DD to use them in the beginning. However, DD usually does the workbook pages without the rods. Sometimes when DD doesn't get a concept, I'll pull out the rods and explain it to her. I hardly ever refer to the lab sheet annotations. So, yes, I agree that Miquon can be done without rods for some kids and some families. OTHO, for families just starting out with Miquon, I think they are better off having the rods.

I'm a little confused by the wording of this poll. > They use the program as described in the overview, Grammar 3rd-5th, Magic Lens 6th-8th > They use it for a grade below that in the overview > They use it for a grade above that in the overview. For example, suppose a 1st grader is using the 3rd grade book. Is she using it "a grade below" because she is using the 3rd grade book in a lower grade? Or is she using it "a grade above" because she is using a book for a higher grade?

When we do the MCT practice sentences, I also have DD draw arrows from each modifier (adjectives, adverbs, & prepositional phrases) to the word being modified. For prepositional phrases she also circles the prepositional phrase. DD does the practice sentences on her own and I just go over any trouble spots with her. I'm still looking for a good way to indicate compounding when doing the MCT style sentence analysis. So far I have DD tell me orally what each conjunction joins, but I'd like an elegant way for her to indicate it so that we don't have to waste time talking about if if she gets it. Part of the difficulty is that compounding can occur at every level of the 4-level analysis. I think that diagramming does a better job of representing modifiers and conjunctions than MCT style analysis. However, as a whole, I like MCT analysis better. (OMG, I just had a flashback to the thread comparing math manipulatives. Which is better the AL abacus or C-rods? Which is better MCT 4 level analysis or diagramming? They are both good, and each can stand on itself. However they have different strengths.)

Marking the individual rod with numbers won't help this problem. When you look at a bunch of rods and want to find "four" quickly, you would still have to look for purple. A number written on the rod would be too small to see in the sea of rods. I second the recommendation to simply play with the rods more, perhaps playing games where you match the number to the rod.

Just to be clear, I don't give my daughter writing assignments. The only time she puts words on paper is when she does spelling and journaling. And for the journaling there are *zero* requirements regarding content, lenght, or quality. I'm asking what other ways can I have her put words on paper if I drop both of these activities, or if I should continue these activities simply for the practice of putting words on paper. So I should keep the journaling? :willy_nilly: (DD is currently writing a story about characters named Gas, Liquid, Solid, and Plasma going to a birthday party and Plasma catching a cold. It's really cute. DD has been adding a little bit each day.) :bigear: This plan sounds a lot like the cross-curricular writing that I eventually want DD to do. Unfortunately I'm not creative and don't know how to sneak writing into other school subjects. This I need to learn.

:iagree: MCT LA strikes a chord with me. I have WWE and looked at IEW, but I just know that they wouldn't work for me. Oooh!!! Are you saying that I can ditch the rough draft *and* the outline!?!?! And here I am stuck in Island level. You're making it really hard for me to not get the next set of books. Can you tell me any more about MCT's philosopy of the progression of writing skills? Can you just test everything out for me? I also like the BraveWriter lifestyle. My daughter just isn't up to doing freewrites yet, and it's hard to go much farther in Bravewriter without doing any freewrites.

I think that my daughter currently does the right amount of writing for *her*. Maybe it isn't the right amount for other six year olds, but why can't it be the right amount of writing for this one kid who happens to be accelerated in this particular way? However, if I drop spelling and journaling, that would reduce her writing to zero, which is not enough writing for *her*. I like the idea of a blog, but my daughter doesn't know how to type yet. (She has great handwriting.) Plus, I don't have a spare computer for her to use in her free time. Maybe I can convince DH to find the $$$ for a new computer in the homeschool budget. :tongue_smilie:

We have three of Mark Kistler's books, but DD is in more of an Ed Emberly phase. She draws all the time. How would drawing take the place of writing if I drop spelling and journaling?

You ladies have given me a lot to think about. It sounds like y'all think I should drop spelling and journaling and figure out a way to do informal writing outside of schooltime, not a formal writing program? I'm curious, though, if I hadn't given DD's age, would you have given different advice? I talked with DD this morning about journaling, and at first she said she didn't like journaling. Then I found out that she didn't want to do her journal because she wanted to play. But when presented with doing her journal or starting school, she chose to do her journal. After she did her journal, I asked if she liked it, and she said that she liked it once she got started. Arg. I try to keep the length of her school work at her age level and the level of her work at her current working level. To me, that means working the same amount of time as other six year olds, but on material that is at her level. Thanks. So often on this board I hear about smart kids who are learning way above their handwriting level and how moms cope with that. I have the opposite issue. DD's handwriting and mechanics are above her ability to think. I haven't heard of other kids with the same type of asynchronicity

Sigh. DD hates doing copywork. (I've offered to *pay* her for copywork, and she still won't do it.) She'd pick doing a journal over copywork every time. Plus, I don't see much benefit of doing copywork instead of spelling/dictation. I'd love it if DD wrote poems and stories for pleasure. She's constantly coming up with poems and rhymes. I gave her a special book just to write her poems in, but she hardly ever does.

I think that all neuro-typical children can learn to do arithmetic well and enjoy it. However, I think that for some children it will take a lot of effort to create the necessary environment. In some cases, it might take more effort than it's worth. My daughter is not mathy. Yet she is quite proficient for her age, and she even enjoys it when she gets the right answer. She can do two-digit mental addition with carrying and explain her answer. Yet, when drawing a picture for a simple single digit word problems, she'll draw something that makes no sense whatsoever and simply won't see any problem with her picture. If I can get my daughter to compute correctly, I'll be satisified. I'm not willing to put in the effort it would take to get my daughter to enjoy math puzzles that "make your head hurt" the way that Bill's son does.

I agree, a six year old doesn't need to be writing very much. However, my six year old currently writes this much, expects to write this much, and does so with few mechanical errors, and without any writing specific resistance. It would be a shame to reduce the amount of writing she does just because she is six. (After all, this is the accelerated board.) Her handwriting is better than my husband's ;-). I'm not at all worried about the physical act of writing. If she knows what words to write, she has no problems committing them to paper. She never complains about her hand being tired, only about not knowing what to write. Yes, I feel she should continue to write (handwrite), even if we drop spelling and journaling, given her current output level. She doesn't resist journaling; she just doesn't like it when she can't think of something to write. She does her journal more out of habit more than anything else. Thanks for the book suggestions. I'll have to look into them. When writing in her journal, she gets to write about whatever she wants. I don't give her writing prompts, and I don't make corrections. Sometimes she makes up stories; sometimes she writes about something from real life. It's by no means a "personal, emotional journal or daily account". I'll have to think how I might morph her current journal into what you're describing. Thanks for the lengthy answer.

A few threads about spelling and journaling have me wondering if I'm going about my daughter's writing all wrong. The *only* writing that my daughter does is spelling and journaling. Some threads have me thinking that my daughter doesn't need to do spelling. She is a natural speller and makes very few spelling errors. Although her spelling could use improvement, she spells above grade level and would probably improve even without using a spelling program. Thus, a spelling program is a waste of our time and I should drop it. In other threads, I keep reading how journaling is bad and unnecessary. Since my daughter doesn't like journalling, I shouldn't require it. But if I drop spelling and journaling my daughter wouldn't be doing any writing at all!!!! That doesn't seem right. Between spelling and journalling, she writes 6-8 sentences, or about two short paragraphs, per day (with very few errors). I can't go from that to nothing. Should I drop spelling and journaling and start a writing program? I want to do cross-curricular writing eventually, but I don't know how or where to start, especially since we aren't even doing history, science, or literature right now. Should I keep doing what I'm doing (spelling and journaling), even if it is a waste of time, because I am comfortable with it and DD is young (6 years old / 1st grade)? Something else?

My daughter doesn't like journaling. She usually does her journal out of habit, not because she wants to. But I don't think it is a waste of time. It is the only writing she does, and it gives me a chance to observe how her writing skills are coming along. The journal also develops the useful skill of putting pencil to paper and writing, even when she can't think of anything at first. The journal also provides daily practice in drawing. Although my daughter sometimes chooses to write stories in her journal, I don't require her to do "creative" writing in her journal. She can write whatever she wants, as long as she writes.