Talk me through these math options

[Jackie]

DD, age 7, loves math. That’s great, especially because she went through a period of hating math. She loves it so much that she would like to try Epsilon Camp. She is an incredibly social kid, and all things with her benefit from having other kids around, so I would really like to consider this for her. There is no way I can overstate the amount of benefit it does her to find other kids who have similar interests to her - how much it has motivated her, how much it has pushed her past mental blocks, how much it has made her happier. Still, it’s out of the question this year. DH lost his job and we don’t have the finances to make this happen unless something changes drastically very soon. Assuming the job situation stabilizes, it could be on the table for next summer. However, she’s a May birthday, and will turn 9 just before that camp season. At Epsilon Camp, 9 year olds need to have completed an Algebra course.

 

Here’s where we are: DD is in Beast Academy 4C. Out of the six topics covered in 4C and 4D, she has already self-taught herself five of them. Out of the topics covered in BA5, she has self-taught about 3/4 of them. By “self-taughtâ€, I mean she would have no problem with a *typical* text, no problem with 80-90% of the problems in BA, but would still be challenged by some of the more puzzle-like in-depth problems in BA.

 

I have no idea how she learned most these concepts. She puzzled out how to multiply and divide fractions within 20 minutes, talking aloud in the car, and hasn’t had any problem with it since. I just found out today that she learned how to multiply decimals, apparently by doing several on a calculator, using logic to figure out what was going on, then doing several on paper and verifying. Until this year, I would have said she was good at math, but that it paled in comparison to her language skills. I don’t know where this math burst came from.

 

My plan all along was BA into AOPS, no skipping sections or books. I thought about meandering through Jousting Armadillos in between. She’s suddenly zooming through the BA, which is totally fine, especially given she already knows how to do the arithmetic. We’ve been taking breaks between every chapter to pull out other mathy stuff - Zaccaro, hands on math projects, Hands On Equations, etc. However, if I switched her to a more traditional program, I have absolutely no doubt she could do an Algebra course next year to meet the Epsilon requirement.

 

Stick with the BA/AOPS plus meandering plan, knowing that it will be great for long term problem solving but possibly be a slower plan that could knock out Epsilon Camp for at least a couple of summers? Switch to something more straightforward so she will meet the Epsilon requirement, with the likely benefits for her that I mentioned in my first paragraph? Pros/cons?

Edited March 19, 2018 by Jackie

[SoCal_Bear]

Jackie,

 

Have you seen this thread about the camp here: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/117507/1.html

 

My son enjoys math, but he doesn't love it enought to want to do it all day for hours in college style classes when I looked into this.

 

 

[SoCal_Bear]

The video that was posted on the other math thread is well worth watching. 

 

[Jackie]

Jackie,

 

Have you seen this thread about the camp here: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/117507/1.html

 

My son enjoys math, but he doesn't love it enought to want to do it all day for hours in college style classes when I looked into this.

Thanks for the link to the thread!

 

She loves college style classes. She’s dragged me to lectures, where she sat with rapt attention and asked the presenter follow up questions. She loves to watch/listen to Great Courses, sometimes for hours at a time. The length of the days at camp would definitely give me pause if it were longer than two weeks, but for that limited time I think it may fit her quite well. She prefers short term commitments over long term ones - she’d rather throw herself into something for a few days or weeks than commit to a semester- or year-long project.

 

I started to watch the video, but need to find a good length of time to sit down with it. My response to the first 15 minutes is that I absolutely agree she needs challenge. My question is whether to offer this challenge through BA/AOPS at home for the next few years, or by getting her through Algebra 1 so that she can have this challenge through Epsilon Camp with a peer group.

[SeaConquest]

We went through this analysis this year. Sacha turned 9 in January, and I didn't want to have him do an Algebra class concurrent with BA5. I also wanted to give him an extra year of maturity in a classroom environment at AoPS Academy vs. being one of the youngest in the class at Epsilon. So, our plan is to do PA at AoPS Academy next year and run Derek Owens Algebra self-paced concurrent with it to get him familiar enough with Algebra to pass the assessment. Maria Samuelson at Epsilon also mentioned that kiddo just needs to be able to pass the Algebra assessment (vs submitting proof of official course completion), and the assessment doesn't need to be completed until May 15th (other application materials are due earlier), so plenty of time to get her up to speed. Obviously, C is more mature than Sacha, so I think it would be very doable for her next year. Man, Sacha would LOVE it if they both got to go!

[SoCal_Bear]

Jackie,

I know you are where I am in SD as well. I've heard RR lecture on this topic more than once, but he has always emphasized go deep and wide and not faster. I could have set a much faster pace for mine and have completed Algebra by now if I really wanted to. That's not my goal right now as we go a lot of directions with math. I would suggest the Hard Math for Elementary by Ellison as something that you could add to what you are doing. I believe that RR also said that the discrete math series from AOPS does not require algebra as well. It covers a lot of interesting math topics. Mine is going into 4th grade based on chronological age now, this puts San Diego Math Circle next year at 5th which is something ongoing in our area. I also have worked to build non-competitive math circles myself. I'm now onto my second math circle.

Edited March 19, 2018 by calbear

[SeaConquest]

Also, just to clarify, even though we plan to run through Derek Owens next year (for 4th), we still plan to do Algebra I with AoPS the following year (for 5th). If I have learned anything from this board, it is to take your time with math and ensure that Algebra skills are rock solid. Sacha also wants to apply to the SD Math Circle, but again, that doesn't start until 5th (they are strict about that rule).

 

If Epsilon is cost prohibitive, or doesn't work out, or you just want to add more math, you might also look at the math camps at AoPS Academy. They are doing lots of topics outside the traditional curriculum. I intentionally put Sacha in Math Beasts 5 this year (behind his BA level) because we are trying to go slowly. https://sandiego-cv.aopsacademy.org/courses/catalog

[SeaConquest]

One more thing, for anyone else considering AoPS Academy, the Algebra I course includes the Intro to Counting & Probability course (including books).

[Crimson Wife]

Math-U-See is something that could be zipped through quickly if she really were dying to attend Epsilon this year. If I were to do that with a child, I would back up after camp and then work through AoPS Pre-A and Intro to Algebra to make sure everything was rock-solid.

[Gil]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I just don't get the dilemma. Just because you do algebra one year, doesn't mean that you can't do and re-do it again later from different angles, at a higher level or with more challenge.

 

 

[Jackie]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I just don't get the dilemma. Just because you do algebra one year, doesn't mean that you can't do and re-do it again later from different angles, at a higher level or with more challenge.

It is entirely possible that I’m overthinking things. I often do.

 

It feels to me that the discovery approach used in AOPS would be lost if she has already learned the mechanics, and that’s so much of what appeals to me about the program.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Jackie

[daijobu]

I'm sorry Epsilon is out of reach financially.  And I'm kicking myself for recommending some form of social media to your student, but I'm wondering if she can connect with like-minded students on the AoPS discussion forums?  The students there aren't always very mature, so some caution is in order, but there are a lot of nice sincere kids on there that enjoy discussing math.  

[Jackie]

I'm sorry Epsilon is out of reach financially. And I'm kicking myself for recommending some form of social media to your student, but I'm wondering if she can connect with like-minded students on the AoPS discussion forums? The students there aren't always very mature, so some caution is in order, but there are a lot of nice sincere kids on there that enjoy discussing math.

I appreciate the suggestion. I’m looser than many parents regarding electronics and online access, so I’d be fine with discussion forums and kids showing their usual kid-like immaturity. Unfortunately, she ranks online interaction as exponentially inferior to live interaction. I can’t even talk her into forum-based classes when they hit squarely in the intersections of her interests.

 

I will go look through the AOPS forums myself, though. If I can find a reason for them to hook her, it could be a good fit.

[Jackie]

In the last few days, I’ve spent some time evaluating.

 

I started by telling DD that she could just do the starred/challenge problems in the current BA chapter, and if she did well on those we would move on. She did the majority of starred problems in about a half hour, did very well on them, and did not need to put any real effort or thought into them. For me, the *whole point* of using this program is that she be challenged, so it’s obviously missing the mark for her at this time if it’s essntially turned into busywork. I gave her the placement test for the next book and she passed easily. Later this week, I’ll give her the placement test for the next book and see how she does.

 

I talked to her briefly about the setup at Epsilon that I found in a thread online - 3 hours of college-style lectures, break, 2-3 hours of active work, break, optional evening activities. I wish I had a picture of her face when I mentioned the full morning of lectures - she lit up like a kid who had just entered Honeydukes. She’s more determined than ever to go.

 

Very, very loose plan as of now is to re-place her in BA wherever the placement tests say she should actually be. After BA5, if she is still doing as strongly, we’ll move directly into AOPS Intro to Algebra. In order not to lose all our mathy exploration, we’re going to double our math time from a half hour to an hour a day - 1/2 hour of BA/AOPS, 1/2 hour of other mathy stuff. She’s completely on board with this plan.

 

If we’re getting close to time for the Epsilon assessment next year (and can afford the camp), and it’s unrealistic to cover enough material in the AOPS book, we’ll veer off course for a bit with a traditional Algebra text. If along the way, she burns out or decides it isn’t worth it to her, we’ll switch it up again.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Jackie

[4KookieKids]

Wow. That cost really is prohibitively high... yikes

[mathnerd]

Have you investigated the local Math Circles in your area? I guarantee that a very well run math circle is a great outlet for a social kid who is interested in math. In my area, the top universities run math circles in the evening for kids who would like more than a traditional math exposure. My son absolutely enjoyed the few years that he attended and would still go if other things did not take up his time.

[Steppenwolf]

After BA5, if she is still doing as strongly, we’ll move directly into AOPS Intro to Algebra.

 

Are you aware that AOPS also has 'Prealgebra' textbook?

[Jackie]

Have you investigated the local Math Circles in your area? I guarantee that a very well run math circle is a great outlet for a social kid who is interested in math. In my area, the top universities run math circles in the evening for kids who would like more than a traditional math exposure. My son absolutely enjoyed the few years that he attended and would still go if other things did not take up his time.

Yes. We went to one once (run by calbear, actually), and she absolutely loved it, but that was the session when the leader announced he was going to be ending the group. A new one was started in its place, but the new time is on our charter school enrichment day. There’s one in town actually run by people at AOPS, but they won’t take kids younger than fifth grade no matter what level they are working at, so we have 2 1/2 years before that’s an option.

 

I’ve thought about starting an informal one (I’m mathy and DH has a math degree) but I already run her Destination Imagination team, which is a huge time commitment.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Jackie

[Jackie]

Are you aware that AOPS also has 'Prealgebra' textbook?

Yes. BA5 into Algebra is the compromise solution to being able to get her from here through Algebra in 14 months to meet her goal with as little possible need to switch to a traditional algorithm-based text. If it turns out to be too bumpy of a transition, or if there’s a better solution that meets the goal, we can certainly change the path.

[SoCal_Bear]

Just a suggestion..you could consider doing Jousting Armadillos as a pre-algebra in that timeline. It shouldn't take very long at all, and it still incorporates discovery method at a lower intensity and much less dense. The book isn't very thick either. It's 6 chapters with 4 to 7 lessons per chapter. There are chapter tests, but since you homeschool an AL, you have a pretty good sense of what she has or hasn't mastered without using tests.

Of course, if she loves JA, you could finish it out with the two remaining books in the series to complete algebra or move right into AOPS. Jacobs Algebra is also another good choice for discovery method for younger learners. Just thinking out loud about alternate paths to your end goal.

ETA: I think my son likes Linus' humor in JA. It's written conversationally.

Edited March 22, 2018 by calbear

[Jackie]

I had thought of using part or all of the JA series alongside or in between BA5 and AOPS pre-A originally. Since I had been thinking of it as fun and supplementary, I totally left it out of my possibilities as a way to complete an Algebra course. Thank you for reminding me!

[SeaConquest]

Jackie, I decided to request the Jacobs books from the resource center and enrolled Sacha in CTY Online Honors Algebra I, which uses Thinkwell. I am hoping to get a scholarship for the class, which would make it cheaper than buying Thinkwell through HSBC or paying out of pocket for Derek Owens. If you have an actual class completion certificate from some of their approved providers, then the Algebra requirement is met. Sacha does much better in classes vs. one exam (he gets test anxiety). If she can stand the format of Thinkwell, this might be the cheapest and easiest way to go. CTY is very generous with their financial aid.

[Jackie]

She is very comfortable with tests, and generally does well on them, so we will probably take the testing option so we can continue to self-pace at home. If the resource center has multiple copies of Jacobs, I may request that as well, but otherwise I think I’ve been collecting enough resources to last us five years instead of 14 months. I ordered Jousting Armadillos, which sounds right up her alley and I may run that parallel to BA5.

 

She aced the BA placement test for going into BA5 today. Turns out she taught herself basic probability, too. I have no idea when or how.

[Crimson Wife]

It is entirely possible that I’m overthinking things. I often do.

 

It feels to me that the discovery approach used in AOPS would be lost if she has already learned the mechanics, and that’s so much of what appeals to me about the program.

 

I think there is value to the discovery approach but the problems are challenging even if the student is familiar with the algorithms. My DS absolutely LOVES Elements of Mathematics so he is working through their algebra sequence now. But I'm planning on having him follow up EoM with AoPS Intro to Algebra just to make sure that he has everything totally rock solid. I made him do that with pre-algebra.

 

He's not all that accelerated by gifted HSing standards but our zoned high school won't let students start Algebra 1 until 9th so I see no rush to get him through high school math.