Meaning Change Miscues

[Joyful Journeys]

My DD8 had a reading screening today. She was quite frustrated and is clearly having a hard time. It's nice to have that validated by a professional. Any who, she recommended going ahead with a psych eval.

 

One thing really struck me that my daughter has never done with me before. Perhaps I've never asked the right questions, I usually just have her narrate back to me. She read a passage about a family going on a trip. They were going to stay in a hotel. She misread hotel as "hall". When asked later during the comprehension portion, where the family was going to stay after the first day of their trip she said, "the hall...the hall...what's it called...the hotel." So she somehow came up with the word, even though she didn't read it. When she read hall during the passage, she didn't stop at all even though it didn't make sense. She also misread parents as "presents" the entire passage and many other things. 

 

She has been evaluated already to have convergence insufficiency. However, with these types of mistakes where she's continuing even when what words she's chosen do not make sense mean something else is definitely up? I'm having a hard time convincing my husband to have a psych eval done, despite the recommendation we got today. He thinks we can just go back down a level and hit it hard with flashcards and such to get her up to grade level.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Joyful Journeys

[PeterPan]

Did you get VT for the vision problems yet?  Sure it's a valid question if the vision is the cause if the *only* thing that is happening is she's misreading and skipping words. She doubtless has tracking problems too.  Did the screening look at phonological processing as well?  Phonological processing is not dependent on vision.  She could have vision problems *and* phonological processing problems, or just one or the other. 

 

In the ps the psych will give someone a reading sample, have them read (listening to them decode aloud) and then asking questions.  Is that what the screener did?  Or did she run an actual CTOPP or ask some age-typical phonological processing questions?  

 

Think through what's going on.  She's working so hard (because of the vision or decoding challenges) that nothing is left to give to comprehension.  Untreated vision problems and even ADHD could cause simple mistakes like reading parents as presents.  Not noticing the errors, again, can go back to ADHD (metacognition, processing speed).  To get to dyslexia you're asking about phonological processing, which isn't dependent on vision.  So it's things like rhyming words, if I give you a word like snake and say take of the /s/, what will it be, that kind of thing.  

 

You're probably going to need that psych eval no matter what, but it's perfectly reasonable for your dh to want the vision problems treated before evals.  If she has *had* the VT and she's still having problems, it's definitely time for the evals.  

 

What did you use to teach her to read?  How did she do with it?  Do you have an actual issues with her ability to decode words when given things cold?  Can she rhyme and do the phonological processing skills from a random list you would find by googling?  

Pinterest: Discover and save creative ideas  That's a link for a chart.  Maybe not a perfect chart, but just something to get you started.

 

Unless she has an actual decoding problem, where you have a timeliness issue and are wanting to begin Barton *soon*, I would get the VT, finish that, then get your psych evals.  There are probably things going on to explain what you're seeing, but they may or may not be dyslexia.  Might be dyslexia *plus* some other things, and evals help you get to the bottom of that.  Skipping evals keeps you from the information you would get in evals like her processing speed, working memory, other SLDs (dysgraphia, math), etc. etc.  That's all information you need.  It's more just a matter of timing.

[Joyful Journeys]

Did you get VT for the vision problems yet?

 

No. She was just diagnosed right before Christmas. I've just checked with insurance today on coverage and will be calling to get her appointments set up today. I don't know how we'll afford it, just pray! 

 

 Sure it's a valid question if the vision is the cause if the *only* thing that is happening is she's misreading and skipping words. She doubtless has tracking problems too.  Did the screening look at phonological processing as well?  Phonological processing is not dependent on vision.  She could have vision problems *and* phonological processing problems, or just one or the other. 

 

The screener used a sheet of words from Wilson that says Intervention Placement Inventory. It is 25 words. She missed 9 of them, only self correcting once. Examples club (cloud), honks (hunks), fort "frost", drag (gradge), etc and looking at the sheet, these are phonograms she knows cold. 

 

In the ps the psych will give someone a reading sample, have them read (listening to them decode aloud) and then asking questions.  Is that what the screener did?  Or did she run an actual CTOPP or ask some age-typical phonological processing questions?  

 

​Yes. She prepped her with discussing what types of thing you do on a family trip. She read the passage labelled as 560 per Lexile and then asked her questions after. 38 cwpm puts her in the 25th %tile for second graders, having more than the allowed amount of mistakes so she is at the "frustrated" level. I don't think she did CTOPP. It was only about 20 minutes.

 

Think through what's going on.  She's working so hard (because of the vision or decoding challenges) that nothing is left to give to comprehension.  Untreated vision problems and even ADHD could cause simple mistakes like reading parents as presents.  Not noticing the errors, again, can go back to ADHD (metacognition, processing speed).  To get to dyslexia you're asking about phonological processing, which isn't dependent on vision.  So it's things like rhyming words, if I give you a word like snake and say take of the /s/, what will it be, that kind of thing.  

 

I just asked her this ( and her 5.5 yo sister)  :sad: . Snake without the s? "ake" Blue without the b? "ool" said with such gusto.  Both of them actually got it wrong, thought admittedly the younger one hasn't had much reading instruction past CVC. However that could be a red flag for her too? I know they both can rhyme though. 

 

You're probably going to need that psych eval no matter what, but it's perfectly reasonable for your dh to want the vision problems treated before evals.  If she has *had* the VT and she's still having problems, it's definitely time for the evals.  

 

I'm glad that he is not fighting me on the vision. It's expensive, but in his mind a clearly physical issue that should be addressed. He agreed to do that first and if she still has problems get her evalutaed further. I just wish that he trusted my experience with her, that I think something is going on and it's not an issue of us not having worked hard enough. 

 

What did you use to teach her to read?  How did she do with it?  Do you have an actual issues with her ability to decode words when given things cold?  Can she rhyme and do the phonological processing skills from a random list you would find by googling?  

Pinterest: Discover and save creative ideas  That's a link for a chart.  Maybe not a perfect chart, but just something to get you started.

 

We've done Reading Lessons Through Literature. She knows rules well, a good deal of the most common phonograms etc. We're on level 3, so phonograms are no longer marked in the readers and words are no longer broken up by syllables. It is at this level now that she is having difficulty reading the words she's already analyzed via spelling. She is telling me that 15 words at a time is too many for us to do in one lesson (previously it was 10) and she gets "so tired" with that many. I'm thinking perhaps we should have stuck with AAR and the fluency sheets and all that jazz. She really hated the tiles and it moved so slowly. I wonder now if the tiles were making her work hard and that's why she didn't like them. She could blend easily from the beginning and I thought she was just bored with it. 

 

Unless she has an actual decoding problem, where you have a timeliness issue and are wanting to begin Barton *soon*, I would get the VT, finish that, then get your psych evals.  There are probably things going on to explain what you're seeing, but they may or may not be dyslexia.  Might be dyslexia *plus* some other things, and evals help you get to the bottom of that.  Skipping evals keeps you from the information you would get in evals like her processing speed, working memory, other SLDs (dysgraphia, math), etc. etc.  That's all information you need.  It's more just a matter of timing.

 

​I'm going to get the evals whether he likes it or not  :glare: I'll sell off everything I own to get this figured out. It's doing a disservice to her to not even have it checked out. He suggested public school to which I laughed. No way she would be getting any help, she doesn't test far enough behind to need intervention I bet, yet with this slow methodical instruction she would not have gotten in public school, she is still behind? She'd hide it really well and fall through the cracks. 

 

Thanks so much, I truly appreciate your help  :grouphug: 

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Joyful Journeys

[PeterPan]

I think you need evals, yes, but I think your 20 minute word reading didn't give you the information to discriminate whether there's a phonological processing problem or just a vision problem.  ABSOLUTELY you can have both.

 

If you start the VT now, she'll have 1-3 months of VT in before you get her in to a psych.  It usually takes a while to find a good psych and then another while to get in.  It will come together for you.  If it's not dyslexia, there are other explanations.  If you find the psych and make the appt and EVERYTHING magically goes away with VT, you just cancel, no biggee.  But that way, you have the option if you get there and realize you need it.

 

The ps can run these evals as well.  Also the Scottish Rite, some reading tutors, etc.  Learning Ally has a list you can try.

[kbutton]

I think VT will help with figuring out a more precise learning profile.

 

If she can rhyme, but she doesn't necessarily know how to take the s sound out of snake, it could be phonological, but be coming from an auditory processing/sound discrimination direction rather than dyslexia, esp. if she can blend and such. An audiologist can screen hearing at a much more sophisticated level than the pediatrician, and they can run a SCAN 3 screening for CAPD. (If the SCAN 3 turns up trouble, they can do more testing.) Both of those things maybe significantly cheaper than the psych evaluation if you want to go there after vision (or while doing VT). You will want to look at auditory processing symptoms to see if you think that could be the case. Because auditory stuff is a combination of different skills, you can have very few symptoms, but have a really big problem in just that one area of auditory processing. Or, you can have multiple hits to multiple things on that list (unlike other disabilities where you need to have a bunch of symptoms across a number of domains). 

 

My son has some dyslexic tendencies and some outlier scores on the CTOPP, but not dyslexia. I cannot begin to describe how much VT is starting to help. Fatigue is huge when vision is in the way. In his case, his visual issues and writing fatigue are both coming from retained primitive reflexes. Both issues are getting better with work on those through VT. He has not whined once about handwriting since Christmas (we started VT three weeks before the holidays), and he can copy text fairly well now. It was IMPOSSIBLE before, and he spent hours of the day whining, complaining, and trying to get out of work. There are other signs that VT is helping, but you get the idea. It's changing things in his demeanor, posture, sensory seeking, and all kinds of stuff.

[Joyful Journeys]

I think audiology is needed for both of my girls.

 

 

I gave DD8 the Barton screening and she did not pass task C. I'm just floored. She was so tired toward the end. She even failed task B (missing 2 rather than 1, even missing the same word again after she had done several right) though she's clapped syllables just fine before.

 

I did it with my 5.5 yr old and she could not remember enough of what I said to do task c at all.

 

I just want to crawl under a rock. But goodness I'm glad we homeschool.

[PeterPan]

You don't need to crawl under a rock!   :grouphug:   They're young, and you're going to get through this.  You're doing the right thing, asking the right questions.

 

Yes, the Barton pre-test is looking at both phonemic awareness (like do they even have enough to go into Barton) and working memory.  Working memory is HUGE in learning.  If you go to decode a 3 letter word and you only have 2 digits of working memory, automatically something is dropping!  That's literally where we were when I started with my ds.

 

Happily, these are things that improve.  But what that tells you is you definitely need the psych evals *and* the VT, because those issues are NOT caused by the vision.  Now sometimes VT will improve working memory, yes.  But you're still going to need more.  

 

How long is your VT doc suggesting?  Are they willing to do less sessions and more homework?  Sometimes that's a way to stretch your $$.  Also ask about less expensive times to come in.  

 

If you make a formal written request, the school has to consider your evidence on why evals are warranted.  They could do the WISC, the CTOPP, an ADHD screening, etc., yes.  If money is the issue, that's a great place to start.  Sometimes they actually do a really good job!  Sometimes they don't, sigh.  But a CTOPP is a CTOPP.  If you get that done, then at least you have that baseline, kwim?  As long as that gets done, I just wouldn't quibble. 

 

Our university will do an audiology eval, with the SCAN3 screening for APD, for $35.  

[Joyful Journeys]

VT doc suggested 12 weeks which from what I'm reading seems to be on the lower end? I do think I'll ask about a modified schedule since we can do a lot of work at home.

 

The screener gave me some places to call and one office is our network so I'll start with them. From friends, I've heard that our county isn't very good at all about evals so I'm not going to bother. We'll find a way to get it done, may have to ask grandparents to help out, they are wonderful. 

 

At least I know now for sure I'm not crazy, that something is amiss and the work we have done is probably the only way DD8 is reading at all yea?

[kbutton]

VT doc suggested 12 weeks which from what I'm reading seems to be on the lower end? I do think I'll ask about a modified schedule since we can do a lot of work at home.

 

It varies a lot. They may just schedule in 12 week blocks. Our work at home helped the therapy stick better and go a little quicker, but it's not like they could give us stuff to do at home that they weren't doing in clinic. Some of the work is progressive in the sense that you do this task until you are competent, and then they give you the next one. Our VT has been very responsive and adapted to the needs of the child (it's our second kid doing VT so far).

 

One of the best questions (I've found) is to ask what you are supposed to be looking for when the child does the exercise--some things that are less smooth are crucial to get right, and some things are not a big deal. If they don't help you with that, then make notes and give them the next week as feedback--they might get the hint that you're really making an effort to help the child get things right.

[Joyful Journeys]

Ah I see what you mean, thanks! He made it seem like her case is mild and that this should be all she needs. I guess time will tell. She'll start in two weeks.

 

I'm trying to stop my wheels from spinning and just decide what to do. Im looking at LiPS/Barton now, and thankful I screened dd5 so I don't waste any time with her too. I think for the next 3 months we'll just do math (dd8 loves it and does well) and I'll read as much as I can to them.

[PeterPan]

Do you have a device for audiobooks?  My ds loves his kindle fire, but an old phone, whatever you've got.  They'd be relaxing if your dd needs a break after her VT homework.

[Joyful Journeys]

Yes we have tablets galore (those wonderful grandparents I mentioned) so I can easily load up books for my oldest in iTunes.

 

Dd2 was actually diagnosed as a preschooler with auditory processing disorder. She made such strides though her teachers at the specia Ed prek felt she didn't need to be there. She's come up a lot indeed, we can understand about 80 % of what she says but his test brought that all back to my mind, that she has a hard time processing what we say. She absolutely hates audio books. I imagine because it's a garbled mess? I have to get super super animated during read alouds, and she has to be all in to even remotely pay attention. She will actually cry, "please no more!" She's much younger though, so it is probably fine to just let her be.

[PeterPan]

They have some new treatments for APD.  Kbutton on here did a trial with hearing aids for her ds' APD and had PHENOMENAL success.  You might talk with universities and children's hospitals in your state to see who is doing these newer things.  Might have some options.

[Storygirl]

Joyful, this book won't solve underlying problems your daughter might have, but it will give her lots of practice with activities like "say 'snake' without the 's'".

 

www.rainbowresource.com/product/sku/044988

 

We used it extensively in past years. It didn't remediate DD's dyslexia, but it gave her a lot of practice in those kind of skills. My kids enjoyed it; it only took a few minutes a day; and there are so many lessons in there that we didn't get through it all, even though we used it a lot. The activities are varied and fun and don't require any materials. You could use it with both of your girls together.

[Joyful Journeys]

Joyful, this book won't solve underlying problems your daughter might have, but it will give her lots of practice with activities like "say 'snake' without the 's'".

 

www.rainbowresource.com/product/sku/044988

 

We used it extensively in past years. It didn't remediate DD's dyslexia, but it gave her a lot of practice in those kind of skills. My kids enjoyed it; it only took a few minutes a day; and there are so many lessons in there that we didn't get through it all, even though we used it a lot. The activities are varied and fun and don't require any materials. You could use it with both of your girls together.

Oh thank you!

 

OhE that sounds really cool, I'll have to search on that.