Foreign Language MS/HS with dyslexic

[OneStepAtATime]

As I have mentioned before on this site, I have two dyslexic children.  Older is also dyscalculic and has some sort of auditory processing glitch that makes learning through strictly auditory means a bit tricky.  Younger has a different glitch that also makes auditory learning a bit tricky but he actually learns much better with an auditory and color visual component.  Younger really really is motivated to learn Latin so we are doing slow bits and pieces while we remediate reading, spelling and grammar with Barton for his native English.  I think sticking with Latin (he's in 4th) through Middle School will work for him, since he really wants to learn it.  We will reassess going into 8th for what to do about High School.  

 

Older is my issue.  Older is already in 7th grade.  She had a smattering of Spanish while still in a B&M but retained very little since the bulk of the program was not conversations in Spanish but rote memorization of vocabulary lists.  This doesn't work in her native tongue.  It certainly didn't work in a foreign language.  She will have to have a Foreign Language to graduate High School but is really, really unmotivated and feels that if English was this difficult, a foreign language would be nearly insurmountable.  She has expressed interest in learning American Sign Language and I have read that this can sometimes be counted as a High School foreign language credit with certain colleges.  

 

FWIW, she really isn't interested in going to college at the moment, but as her reading and spelling has improved, she is less adamant about not going.  I think as these areas continue to improve she will have more confidence to pursue this route.  We are not pressing it though.  Many family members ended up not finishing college and have fantastic careers.  In fact, some of the ones that never finished college are doing better financially than the ones that did, so I can't really tell her "Oh to get a good job you have to have a college degree."  She knows that isn't true from personal experience with family.  I just don't want that door closed to her should she choose to take that path.  

 

Here is my question/conundrum.  In our area, to get a decent job you really need to speak Spanish (although writing it isn't that necessary).  There are a LOT of Spanish speaking visitors that come through here and there are quite a few locals that speak mainly Spanish, (along with some family members actually) so many businesses won't hire unless you can speak at least some Spanish.  

 

1.  Do I press for her to start a formal Spanish program in 8th, something light and closer to elementary level before putting her in a more intense program for High School, even if she isn't motivated, so that she has a good chance at learning Spanish if we go really slow, and therefore a good chance at a decent job in our area once she is older?

 

2., or maybe just start in High School, insisting that she do Spanish for 9th-12th, taking it slow after an additional year of English language remediation her 8th grade year, so there is less risk of confusing her English language remediation?  Should I press this even if she is very unmotivated to learn Spanish and it may be exceedingly difficult for her to really learn a foreign language even if we do go slow?  

 

3. Do I skip a formal program in Spanish and just work on helping her gain the ability to speak Spanish, but not use it as a foreign language credit for High School since she may not be able to learn the grammar, spelling, etc. for a foreign language?  

 

4.  In fact, what is the risk of goofing her up with her remediation in English if she does a full foreign language curriculum at the High School level?.  Has anyone had that happen?  I realize that every child is different, but I know that languages are very difficult for my daughter.  My son actually learned a lot of German and French phrases from watch Hogan's Heroes and with just one lesson in Latin he started noticing Latin roots in English.  My daughter does not seem to have that ability.

 

4.  She is motivated to learn ASL.  If I started her on that, what program would I use?

 

5.  If we chose this route, should I begin it in 8th, while she is expressing interest, or wait until High School, after she has additional English language remediation in 8th?  

 

Sorry so long.  Hope everyone is doing well.

[Lecka]

I have read that at college students can substitute a "culture" class for a language class in some situations.

 

That is something to look at for the college angle, though I don't know what places allow and disallow that.

 

So I don't know, but wonder if there might be an exception to this requirement for high school?

 

Just something to wonder about.

[SandyKC]

What Lecka says is true.. My DS#1's college gave him a foreign language waiver and had him take anthropology courses instead.  He had to take the Anthro classes through the same level he would have had to take foreign language.  A student does generally have to have a comprehensive neuropsych evaluation that is LESS than three years old to give to the college showing a language-based learning disability to get a waiver.  Dyslexia is a language-based LD, so foreign language waivers are often granted for students who have difficulty with the English.

 

Second option is to do what my DS#2 decided to do.. He would NOT look at ANY college that had a foreign language requirement!!   He did have to have a high school FL, so he completed those requirements with minimal proficiency, but it got the job done.

 

On the remediation end.. I don't know how close to full remediation your DD is, but depending upon the degree of her remediation needs right now, I'd probably not do FL yet and really focus heavily on solidifying the English skills first.  You can take two years to do each level of FL for high school, take it easy and take it fun!! Use as much interactive programming as possible to try and make the learning interesting. 

 

ASL and Latin are the easiest for a child who has severe dyslexia.. I'm told German and Spanish are next easiest.  Not all colleges will recognize ASL as a FL, so you might want to check with the schools your DD is most likely to go to and see what their policies are.  It's definitely possible to go with ASL and just target colleges that will accept it.. I'd be more likely to go with what my child wanted so as to make it as painless as possible (because it IS going to be difficult!).

 

I have read that at college students can substitute a "culture" class for a language class in some situations.

That is something to look at for the college angle, though I don't know what places allow and disallow that.

So I don't know, but wonder if there might be an exception to this requirement for high school?

Just something to wonder about.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks so much for responding, Lecka and Sandy.  As we get closer to High School I am really trying to figure out what will work and what won't.  I read the posts on the High School forum and get nervous...  Hope you are both well.  

[geodob]

I would support doing ASL as a foreign language.

Where given that your Older has 'some sort of auditory processing glitch'?

Learning ASL can help remediate this, as it provides an alternative way to access language.

Also most importantly, she has expressed an interest in learning ASL.

 

Typically when Dyslexic students are forced to learn a second language?  The extra time that they need to spend on it, due to their Dyslexia.  Along with the frustration they experience. Tends to have an impact on their other subjects?

On the other hand, with an auditory processing glitch. She might take to ASL quite naturally, and become proficient in it?  

 

With Spanish being a basic job requisite in your community.  You note that writing it isn't necessary.  Where you could rather focus on her developing a basic conversational use. Which could just involve watching some Spanish TV programs with English sub-titles each week, for the rest of her years at school.  Where she will very likely become quite proficient in Spanish.

 

In regard to a program for ASL ?

One approach you could take, is to see if their is a local Deaf/ Hard Of Hearing organization where you live?

Which could be a useful resource?  While they usually run ongoing programs to help people who are Deaf/ HOH.  They often also run ongoing ASL programs for hearing people.

So that you could go to their program with your daughter, and learn ASL with her? 

[OneStepAtATime]

I would support doing ASL as a foreign language.

Where given that your Older has 'some sort of auditory processing glitch'?

Learning ASL can help remediate this, as it provides an alternative way to access language.

Also most importantly, she has expressed an interest in learning ASL.

 

Typically when Dyslexic students are forced to learn a second language?  The extra time that they need to spend on it, due to their Dyslexia.  Along with the frustration they experience. Tends to have an impact on their other subjects?

On the other hand, with an auditory processing glitch. She might take to ASL quite naturally, and become proficient in it?  

 

With Spanish being a basic job requisite in your community.  You note that writing it isn't necessary.  Where you could rather focus on her developing a basic conversational use. Which could just involve watching some Spanish TV programs with English sub-titles each week, for the rest of her years at school.  Where she will very likely become quite proficient in Spanish.

 

In regard to a program for ASL ?

One approach you could take, is to see if their is a local Deaf/ Hard Of Hearing organization where you live?

Which could be a useful resource?  While they usually run ongoing programs to help people who are Deaf/ HOH.  They often also run ongoing ASL programs for hearing people.

So that you could go to their program with your daughter, and learn ASL with her? 

Thanks for the suggestions!  I will look into something we could do together.  It would definitely help if someone else was teaching this who has proficiency.  I am already overloaded trying to learn all the remediation techniques for reading, spelling, writing and math, along with the other things the kids are pursuing.

[Heathermomster]

Our kids are in the same situation. DS is currently studying roots and affixes. Our local dyslexia school teaches and encourages local tutors to spend time on a roots study prior to calling it quits on reading remediation.

 

Currently, I know three adults that attend a free, basic ASL class on Sunday afternoons. The class is hosted by a local church. My DS currently has no interest in ASL. One of my friends is an adult dyslexic and loves it. I expect that DS and I will eventually take the class together to explore ASL. In middle school, I self taught some basic ASL and used signs with both my children before they could speak.

 

DS will be starting C programming next semester to discover whether programming interests him. In college, DH and I both subbed FL for programming classes, and we both took two years of high school Spanish. Our state college has no high school foreign language requirement.

 

If DS ever decides to pursue Spanish, I would likely use elementary materials and hire a native Spanish speaker to tutor him since we know a handful of Spanish speakers. I've seen Getting Started with Spanish and Getting Started with Latin by Linney recommended.

 

TokyoMarie has many insightful opinions about FL. Maybe search her posts or contact her directly.

 

I have a list of ASL resources. When I get more time, will post them. Blessings, h

[Heathermomster]

A few ASL resources follow:

http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-layout/concepts.htm

http://www.signingtime.com/shop/series-one

http://www.start-american-sign-language.com/learn-sign-language-asl.html

Some books...The Complete Idiot's Guide to Conversational Sign Language Illustrated, Barron's 500 Flash Cards of American Sign Language, Baby flashcards, and Talking With Your Hands, Listening With Your Eyes: A Complete Photographic Guide to American Sign Language.

 

 

Maybe call around to colleges your DD might attend and discover their high school entrance requirements.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks so much for the suggestions, Heathermomster!  All you ladies are wonderful!  

 

I wish I could speak a foreign language.  Really, really wish it.  I have never been able to learn and it is very frustrating to me.  I took 3 years of French in High School and another year in college and retained NONE of it.  I got good grades but lost the info right after each test.  The only thing I can say in French is "I have two eyes."  (I'd write it in French but I can't remember how to spell the words, only say them.)  Truly, why were we taught this phrase?  When would I ever need this phrase in real life?  I have been to France three times.  Not once did anyone question how many eyes I have.  And yet after I was taught this phrase, it so annoyed me that it is the only thing I remember from 4 years of French. :banghead:

 

 I also took a year of Spanish as an adult.  I really wanted to try to learn Spanish since it is used rather often here by visitors and some locals.   I worked really hard, passed every test, applied the things I was learning as we did the lessons, etc.  Still didn't help me much.  If I am not constantly studying and using the language daily, I lose it completely, and I mean completely.   I guess I have some sort of weird dyslexia for foreign languages.  English, no issues.  Anything else and I am doomed.  I understand a few spoken phrases but everyone mainly has to translate for me.  Ugh!  I pray with all my heart that my kids have a better time learning another language, at least for conversation, than I do.   :sad:

[Tokyomarie]

Our kids are in the same situation. DS is currently studying roots and affixes. Our local dyslexia school teaches and encourages local tutors to spend time on a roots study prior to calling it quits on reading remediation.

 

Studying roots and affixes pays dividends that last over time. Both of my children with language-based challenges completed vocabulary study that focused on roots and affixes and they have scored well on tests of reading comprehension, including the SAT and ACT reading sections.

 

At our state's IDA conference this year, I listened to a speaker talk about ways to build vocabulary skills in the older student and the study of roots and affixes featured prominently in her recommendations.

 

TokyoMarie has many insightful opinions about FL. Maybe search her posts or contact her directly.

 

 

  :blush5: . You are so kind, Heathermomster!   

 

My basic opinion is that there should be no blanket recommendation that foreign language study should be avoided by dyslexic students.

 

The seeds of my opinion were planted back when I was raising my two children with language based learning challenges in Tokyo. In fact, my second dd was fully bilingual and attending the local Japanese public school when she was first evaluated. Our evaluator stated in his recommendation that families often do choose to drop the second language and concentrate on the first language, but that advantages for bilingual development are many and should be considered in the decision.

 

My son never picked up more than 5 words of Japanese in the 5.5 year he lived there after he was born. Probably he would have, had we stayed longer and enrolled him in the Japanese school the next year.

 

The important consideration for any dyslexic student pursuing a foreign language is for the instruction to be multisensory. My preference is for instruction to proceed with listening and speaking coming first, adding reading and writing later. There should be a lot of work with physical actions, concrete objects, and pictures rather than a focus on translation of written words from one language to the other.

 

Here is a helpful document from the International Dyslexia Association on foreign language study. It's in their Fact Sheets section.

 

As for ASL, it is often a good choice for dyslexic students. However, if a student has sequencing difficulties that extend to sequenced movement- ie trouble tying shoes, doing martial arts forms, other sports movements, they may also have difficulty with ASL.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Studying roots and affixes pays dividends that last over time. Both of my children with language-based challenges completed vocabulary study that focused on roots and affixes and they have scored well on tests of reading comprehension, including the SAT and ACT reading sections.

 

At our state's IDA conference this year, I listened to a speaker talk about ways to build vocabulary skills in the older student and the study of roots and affixes featured prominently in her recommendations.

 

I agree.  Barton covers this, but later on.  We aren't to that point yet.   But if things move as smoothly as they have been the past couple of months, we should be there and beyond before my daughter starts 9th grade in the fall of 2015.

 

 

  :blush5: . You are so kind, Heathermomster!   

 

My basic opinion is that there should be no blanket recommendation that foreign language study should be avoided by dyslexic students.

 

The seeds of my opinion were planted back when I was raising my two children with language based learning challenges in Tokyo. In fact, my second dd was fully bilingual and attending the local Japanese public school when she was first evaluated. Our evaluator stated in his recommendation that families often do choose to drop the second language and concentrate on the first language, but that advantages for bilingual development are many and should be considered in the decision.

 

My son never picked up more than 5 words of Japanese in the 5.5 year he lived there after he was born. Probably he would have, had we stayed longer and enrolled him in the Japanese school the next year.

 

The important consideration for any dyslexic student pursuing a foreign language is for the instruction to be multisensory. My preference is for instruction to proceed with listening and speaking coming first, adding reading and writing later. There should be a lot of work with physical actions, concrete objects, and pictures rather than a focus on translation of written words from one language to the other.

 

Here is a helpful document from the International Dyslexia Association on foreign language study. It's in their Fact Sheets section.

 

Thanks so much for the helpful info and perspective above.  I am still pursuing Latin (and plan to do at least spoken Spanish) with my younger child even though the Latin is slow going and difficult for him.  He is so motivated, he doesn't want to give up and I applaud his determination.  I think as he gets further along and we work more on multi-sensory exposure, things will improve.  He picks up spoken languages quite quickly.  He started speaking full, complex sentences at 18 months and picks up foreign phrases in TV programs  quite quickly, and can usually pronounce and apply them correctly right afterwards.  It is just the written forms that really trip him up.  Because he gets spoken languages so well, I had planned to start him on Spanish first, since he can hear it sometimes being used in grocery stores, etc.  but he begged for Latin, so we are doing that right now.

 

My daughter is the real issue.  She just gets so tripped up with any sort of foreign language.  I am going to try to find someone that can help us learn spoken Spanish first, as you say, then eventually maybe try some of the written components.

 

As for ASL, it is often a good choice for dyslexic students. However, if a student has sequencing difficulties that extend to sequenced movement- ie trouble tying shoes, doing martial arts forms, other sports movements, they may also have difficulty with ASL.

 

My daughter is a conundrum.  She has amazing dexterity, phenomenal balance, taught herself to swim, taught herself to draw, learned how to weave and she made an entire very detailed outfit out of various types of leaves once, including lace up shoes.   She can run very fast, climb any tree, walk any balance beam.  She can paint the tiniest, most detailed drawings on fingernails with fingernail polish brushes.  Her fine motor skills, her gross motor skills, all are quite strong (much to the envy of her brother).  

 

But if you give her sequential instruction in anything, she cannot follow it and gets terribly confused and frustrated.  She has never liked organized sports.  We used to think it was because she was such a free spirit.  As we have worked on remediation, I realized that it is probably because she struggled to follow instructions sequentially and learn all of the rules and the physical application.  I don't know if that will affect her learning ASL or not.  Since she is interested, we will give it a good try, though, I think.  I honestly hadn't thought of the sequencing of movement being an issue.  I need to think about that for awhile, not just with ASL but with things we are doing right now...

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to give me all of this feedback.  I will check out the links.  Your help is greatly appreciated!!

 

 

[Tokyomarie]

The student's own motivation is good reason to let them try what interests them, even if it may be difficult. That motivation will carry them far- just whether it's far enough to get the job done isn't always easy to see. You try to set up the best style of instruction for them and let them try.

 

On the sequencing issue, again, you just don't know until you try. But if things fall flat, it's one issue to consider. Each dyslexic person is different as regards the exact combination of challenges. One of my children with language-based learning challenges had no difficulties in this area, the other did/does. He's much better now, but ASL and martial arts when he was young were very challenging.

[OneStepAtATime]

The student's own motivation is good reason to let them try what interests them, even if it may be difficult. That motivation will carry them far- just whether it's far enough to get the job done isn't always easy to see. You try to set up the best style of instruction for them and let them try.

 

On the sequencing issue, again, you just don't know until you try. But if things fall flat, it's one issue to consider. Each dyslexic person is different as regards the exact combination of challenges. One of my children with language-based learning challenges had no difficulties in this area, the other did/does. He's much better now, but ASL and martial arts when he was young were very challenging.

Thanks so much for the insight.  You are so right that you don't know til you try, and even then it may depend on the approach.  My son started karate last year and it was awful at first.  He couldn't keep left and right straight to save his life and he has always had coordination problems, unlike his sister.  One thing he doesn't have, though, is her sequencing issues.  He still couldn't follow what was going on in the class, though, and we were afraid we would have to withdraw him even though he desperately wanted to learn.  One of his instructors, who has worked with dyslexics, started doing private lessons with him, and would frequently blindfold him so he could focus inward on what left and right felt like.  It worked wonders.  He is now a green belt and will test for his senior green this evening.  He loves it.  Instead of it becoming just one more physical thing that he couldn't do, it became his first real success.