would WWE be worth adding to Classical Writing?

[serendipitous journey]

We are in WWE3, and I am incorporating Classical Writing Aesop because I'd like to use the CW program as a main writing program.  This is for A., who is 8 and in third grade and is a quick study.  However, I also hope to use WWS in 5th grade -- we school 6 days/week year-round, so this is feasible.  Esp. given the WWS goal, is it worthwhile to use WWE for 3rd and 4th grades, or would writing time be better spent moving more quickly through CW? 

 

thanks in advance! 

[Kathie in VA]

hm, I'd like to give you a straight answer but too am not sure.  These are both very good programs but they have different focuses and different paths.

 

You can do both at the lower levels but once you get to CW Homer it may get to be too much.  Both WWS and CW Homer expect more from the student, and this takes time.  ymmv, only you know your dd and your abilities/time to work/tweak the programs.

 

oh, here's an idea.  You can start with WWE and WWS.  Then in about 7th grade (or maybe 6th), you can start CW with the Older Beginner's books.  These will take you through the CW program from Aesop through Homer in one year.  The negative to this is that you may not get through the whole CW series, but you will get through more than the general graduating population.  Take a look at the CW progression of books here: http://www.classicalwriting.com/Placement.htm#older

 

You may want to look at why you want WWS 5 so much.  What is it about that one that you think CW will not give?  Or what is it about CW that you think the WWE-WWS series will not give you.  The scope and sequence for the CW Homer can be found here:  http://www.classicalwriting.com/ScopeSequenceHomer.pdf  Other scope and sequences can be found near the bottom of the page that describes the CW book.

I'm not sure where to find the SS for WWS, I'm sure it's out there.

 

 

hope this helps some... 

 

 

[serendipitous journey]

Kathie, thank you for your kind & very helpful reply -- I'm very very delayed in responding.  It took me nearly all this time to get my hands on my copy of WWS (which turned out to be stored with art supplies) and if you are still around I'd appreciate any other thoughts you have. 

 

What I want from CW is a thorough grounding in old-school classical writing techniques and a thorough comfort with complex, high-level texts: both reading and analyzing such texts.  I am working with a child who is by nature very STEM-ish and my educational goals include a thorough grounding in classical works & thinking so I'm trying to make sure he gets the exposure I'd like. 

 

OTOH, I hear from home educators of children at least somewhat like A. (rather precocious, mathy, analytical) that WWS has been a marvelous program and I believe that Ruth (lewelma) thinks that it may give a better training to a STEM-ish child who will be writing, perhaps, STEM-ish things (literature summaries, original reports, grant applications &c).

 

Also A. learns astonishingly quickly sometimes, and is mastering the concepts in CW's Aesop somewhat quickly (though he does need practice, and does NOT like writing!)  So an additional benefit of using CW & WWS together might be to keep him improving his writing, learning and moving forward without outpacing his abilities: to keep him neither bored nor in over his head.  I think he'll be through the Aesop material by the end of 3rd grade/beginning of 4th, if we continue with the program, and thought that if we did Homer in 4th and WWS in 5th that might be a rigorous and appropriate training ... not sure, though. 

 

I do think he's developmentally ready to do more writing than WWE and I need a program to help me design his assignments so that I can spend my effort teaching them: the child is sweet and also quite stubborn. 

[Tress]

Ana, I'm not so sure using CW *and* WWS is going to work. I have used CW Aesop A&B and Homer A&B with my oldest dd and when I look at WWS1 it makes my head spin, it is so parts-to-whole it would make my dd cry, especially after Homer.

 

Ruth may be right in that WWS is appropriate for STEM-ish writers :), but more important -I think- is to see if your child needs parts-to-whole or whole-to-parts instruction (I don't think CW Homer is completely whole-to-parts, but I made it so by making a big wall chart to show my dd where we were heading.)

 

I do understand wanting not to go too fast, I'm in the same position, I don't think it's a good idea to start a just turned 10yo in CW Maxim. As a matter of fact, we are taking a break from CW to use a Dutch 7th grade curriculum.....but that's not helpful for you, sorry :D.

 

I can't really tell you what to do after CW Homer, I think you need to wait and judge what A needs when you get there.

[serendipitous journey]

Tress, thank you so much for that insight into the programs.  I am not sure about the parts-to-whole versus whole-to-parts style of learning for A. ... I'd offhand say usually parts-to-whole, but Aesop is going fine (at the moment!). 

 

May I ask how you came up with your Homer chart -- did you read through the program and extrapolate?  I had been thinking of making some small Aesop wall charts with the guidelines for expanding dialogue & description, but that's simple because that information is given in nice little boxes in the Aesop material.  Easy to extract!

 

 

[Tress]

Tress, thank you so much for that insight into the programs. I am not sure about the poarts-to-whole versus whole-to-parts style of learning for A. ... I'd offhand say usually parts-to-whole, but Aesop is going fine (at the moment!).

My dd is also a mix of whole-to-parts and parts-to-whole. For foreign language instruction, she definitely needs parts-to-whole, like Henle, but for other subjects she really needs whole-to-parts.

 

May I ask how you came up with your Homer chart -- did you read through the program and extrapolate? I had been thinking of making some small Aesop wall charts with the guidelines for expanding dialogue & description, but that's simple because that information is given in nice little boxes in the Aesop material. Easy to extract!

I read the Homer Core book several times, making notes and studying their summaries of the skill levels for each day. I made a really big spreadsheet, with a column for each day, and printed it out. It was on several pages taped together, hanging on our door from top to bottom :D. I normally wouldn't mind sharing it, assuming you have bought the Core book, but I made the spreadsheet in Dutch, because we were using CW Homer in Dutch.

 

I think if you have a connection with how Classical Writing teaches, for me....I feel that CW teaches how I think, while SWB's WWS makes my head spin, it isn't that difficult to extract the information from the Core book. It is just, well, a lot of information ;).

 

HTH,

[Kathie in VA]

Kathie, thank you for your kind & very helpful reply -- I'm very very delayed in responding.  It took me nearly all this time to get my hands on my copy of WWS (which turned out to be stored with art supplies) and if you are still around I'd appreciate any other thoughts you have. 

 

What I want from CW is a thorough grounding in old-school classical writing techniques and a thorough comfort with complex, high-level texts: both reading and analyzing such texts.  I am working with a child who is by nature very STEM-ish and my educational goals include a thorough grounding in classical works & thinking so I'm trying to make sure he gets the exposure I'd like. 

 

OTOH, I hear from home educators of children at least somewhat like A. (rather precocious, mathy, analytical) that WWS has been a marvelous program and I believe that Ruth (lewelma) thinks that it may give a better training to a STEM-ish child who will be writing, perhaps, STEM-ish things (literature summaries, original reports, grant applications &c).

 

Also A. learns astonishingly quickly sometimes, and is mastering the concepts in CW's Aesop somewhat quickly (though he does need practice, and does NOT like writing!)  So an additional benefit of using CW & WWS together might be to keep him improving his writing, learning and moving forward without outpacing his abilities: to keep him neither bored nor in over his head.  I think he'll be through the Aesop material by the end of 3rd grade/beginning of 4th, if we continue with the program, and thought that if we did Homer in 4th and WWS in 5th that might be a rigorous and appropriate training ... not sure, though. 

 

I do think he's developmentally ready to do more writing than WWE and I need a program to help me design his assignments so that I can spend my effort teaching them: the child is sweet and also quite stubborn. 

 

I think, what you are looking to get out of CW ... you will get.  Take a look at the scope and sequence for each book.  These can be found on the CW website; just click on the book name and scroll down for the link.

 

I also have STEM students here.  I disagree that WWS is better for those students.  Yes they get to write descriptions from science early on, but they won't get to college for some years.  By then, imho, either program will have provided all that will be needed to produce papers for any STEM field. 

 

Careful with judging CW based on Aesop; this level is easy because it is a gentle introduction.  I think both CW Homer and WWS will provide more challenge.

 

Differences that *I* think we can lean on:

--The Complete Writer (WWE, WWS) is not yet finished.  Also, I have heard that the intended final level: Writing With Style, will no longer be written.  I *heard* that SWB says that there are already other sources available.  So at that point you will need to look into Rhetoric directly.  <ETA: this is wrong ... updated info in posts below!!>

--CW is also not currently complete.  They are currently beta testing their final level.  Then they will still need to complete the last of their enrichment books.

 

==WWE and WWS provide a script for the parent/instructor to use when teaching.

==CW does not provide a script.  There are pages for you to read and understand and then teach to your student.... or provide for them to read... or read together to understand the lessons.

 

++The Complete Writer is a composition program.

++CW teaches composition, grammar, and some logic & Rhetoric terminology and concepts.  Yes there is a separate grammar text for the Homer and Diogenes levels, but the lessons there do not stay there.  They are then applied within the CW lessons.  There is also a separate formal logic text for the Herodotus level whose lessons are incorporated in the CW lessons in the last CW chapter.  The final CW level will also use a separate text for rhetoric but then utilize those skills in the CW lessons.  There are also suggestions for literature reading, although I haven't done those.

 

//Now for the whole-to-parts thing.  The Complete Writer is definitely a parts-to-whole.  Whether this is a benefit will be based on how you, the instructor, feel about it as well as how your student(s) will connect with it.  

//CW is more of a whole-to-parts but I think it is a bit of a mixture.  When you get to Diogenes you learn about the essay and all it's parts right away.  You study examples of whole essays and find all the parts.  Then you learn how to write just a few paragraphs.  From there you write a whole essay with just those paragraphs.  Next you will learn 1 or 2 more paragraphs and then write a paper or two with just the ones learned so far.  

 

Well, gotta run.  Hope this helps some...

 

ETA:

forgot to mention--

I have The Complete Writer and have used WWE level 2 and WWS level 1.

I have used CW Aesop, Homer, Diogenes, and Herodotus.  I am currently teaching Homer OB to a class of 7th graders and Diogenes- Maxim to a class of 8th graders at our co-op.

 

[Susan Wise Bauer]

--The Complete Writer (WWE, WWS) is not yet finished.  Also, I have heard that the intended final level: Writing With Style, will no longer be written.  I *heard* that SWB says that there are already other sources available.  So at that point you will need to look into Rhetoric directly.

 

 

Writing With Style will be written, but since there are already rhetoric courses available, I will probably take a break after Writing With Skill before continuing on.

 

SWB

 

p.s. Good thread! Just offering a correction in fact.

[Kathie in VA]

Writing With Style will be written, but since there are already rhetoric courses available, I will probably take a break after Writing With Skill before continuing on.

 

SWB

 

p.s. Good thread! Just offering a correction in fact.

 

Oh, thank you so much for jumping in!  I spoke with a friend who said that they spoke to someone from Peace Hill Press about this.  I will correct my friends, they must have misunderstood.  We have been trying to determine our path for writing at our co-op so they were calling around to gather info.  

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I expect that what they heard was "There is no projected publication date," which means, "We have no idea when it will be finished, so don't count on it for your rising ninth grader."   :drool:

 

 

SWB