OhElizabeth (or others): about timing classes that come with a textbook...

[Rhondabee]

ETA: Initial question answered. But if you're curious, read on: =)

 

*****************************************************

 

I'm curious, first, if I should start timing all our classes.

 

I admit that our 9th grade history classes often turned into 1 1/2 hour-plus sessions daily, if you include all the reading and discussions. And, I have very little written work to back that up. I'm frankly procrastinating at writing that one up, though it was the class that turned my child from a "child" who thought in very concrete terms of black-and-white and us-vs-them into a compassionate adult who now sees the world full of *people* iykwim. I know if I give him anything less than an "A" it would be highway robbery; I don't know how to justify that A. (I'm hoping that since its Ancient History, it will be an elective and not examined that closely.)

 

BUT - my actual question concerns our experience with Apologia science (NOOOOOooooo!!!)

 

We basically followed the Donna Young schedule for Biology, taking the full year to complete the basic course. And, I anticipate giving him a full credit for the course. But, after reading your comments about timing the course, I must admit that most days he only spent about 30 minutes on this class. (Labs definitely took longer. The study guide days took longer.)

 

So, next year when it comes time to do Chemistry...should I have him write down the starting time, and follow the schedule, but KEEP WORKING FOR A FULL HOUR EVERY DAY and then pick up in the schedule wherever that happens to be? And then, if we finish the basic book early, order the 2nd book, and work as far as we can until the end of the year?

 

I'm not worried about finishing the 2nd book necessarily. And, of course you know if I suddenly implement this new idea, the problem is, it's suddenly going to take an hour to finish whatever is written on the schedule for the day...as this is not a science-oriented kid, and the "reward" for finishing early last year was that - he "finished early". sigh!

Edited June 28, 2010 by Rhondabee
I'm trying to make sense, but I'm soooo tired!

[Guest]

I'm a bit nervous about admitting this, but I take Carnegie hours (used as the sole means of determining credits) with a very big grain of salt.

 

Last fall my daughter briefly attended a private school on scholarship. This was a fancy-pantsy school with class trips to China, kids headed for the Ivy League, etc. In the advanced algebra class fully 1/2 half of class time was spent going over homework problems various kids didn't understand. The kids who did get them on their own or the first time around (my daughter was one of them) basically sat there for 45 minutes at a time while the others had their questions answered. Only then did the class move on to the next section. Never did the teacher try to accommodate different children's paces of working. My daughter could have done the work in half the time and still gotten a full credit simply because her rear was planted in the seat in the classroom during the other half (during which, she and I both knew, her brain was not present). All her other classes operated in much the same fashion.

 

To my mind this is the problem with a one-size-fits-all way of measuring what constitutes a credit. In an ideal world, each child's program would have individualized goals and their pace for reaching those goals would vary. Some would do a minimum of work in one class in order to devote a lot more time to others in their field of interest. Some would feel very comfortable and happy measuring what they accomplished by time on task. Some would minimize ALL academic work in order to devote more time to apprenticeship, travel, volunteer work, or intensive projects. Some would get sick, or have their schedules messed up by relocation, natural disaster, or other crises. Of these, a part would have sat at a desk in front of their books for the required number of hours and receive credit but have learned nothing, while others would miss weeks or even months of school proper while still reading widely or gaining other pertinent experience.

 

Part of homeschooling's great attraction for many of us is its ability to allow us to shape a course of study to reflect our children's individual interests, abilities, pace, motivation, way of learning, and ultimate goals. It seems contradictory to that freedom to set the timer and require a certain number of hours -- unless that method best suits the child and parent in question.

[PeterPan]

Rhonda, I think you're taking this farther than anyone, including all colleges, expects. No, you don't need a timer, lol. As Karen says, we're using school terms and school measures to quantify what our kids are doing. If he finishes the book and accomplishes to your satisfaction what is generally recognized as a credit, then so be it. I don't think anybody is going to ask you for start and stop times along with your transcript. :) The ONLY reason this was even an issue for Quiver was because she had two similar courses done consecutively in one year, which raises a lot of questions with the person doing the transcript evaluation. She has multiple options for how to record her stuff, all reasonable, depending on what she wants to do. But for you, mercy, please don't use a timer, lol. You're doing fine! They take the word of homeschoolers at face value. Set reasonable standards, have him do the work, and write it down. That's all there is to it. :)

[Rhondabee]

Rhonda, I think you're taking this farther than anyone, including all colleges, expects. No, you don't need a timer, lol. As Karen says, we're using school terms and school measures to quantify what our kids are doing. If he finishes the book and accomplishes to your satisfaction what is generally recognized as a credit, then so be it. I don't think anybody is going to ask you for start and stop times along with your transcript. :) The ONLY reason this was even an issue for Quiver was because she had two similar courses done consecutively in one year, which raises a lot of questions with the person doing the transcript evaluation. She has multiple options for how to record her stuff, all reasonable, depending on what she wants to do. But for you, mercy, please don't use a timer, lol. You're doing fine! They take the word of homeschoolers at face value. Set reasonable standards, have him do the work, and write it down. That's all there is to it. :)

 

Thank you.

 

I'm sure my children thank you as well. ;)

 

Taking a :chillpill: and making better plans for the next 3 years! :lol:

[Hunter's Moon]

I'm curious, first, if I should start timing all our classes.

 

I admit that our 9th grade history classes often turned into 1 1/2 hour-plus sessions daily, if you include all the reading and discussions. And, I have very little written work to back that up. I'm frankly procrastinating at writing that one up, though it was the class that turned my child from a "child" who thought in very concrete terms of black-and-white and us-vs-them into a compassionate adult who now sees the world full of *people* iykwim. I know if I give him anything less than an "A" it would be highway robbery; I don't know how to justify that A. (I'm hoping that since its Ancient History, it will be an elective and not examined that closely.)

 

BUT - my actual question concerns our experience with Apologia science (NOOOOOooooo!!!)

 

We basically followed the Donna Young schedule for Biology, taking the full year to complete the basic course. And, I anticipate giving him a full credit for the course. But, after reading your comments about timing the course, I must admit that most days he only spent about 30 minutes on this class. (Labs definitely took longer. The study guide days took longer.)

 

So, next year when it comes time to do Chemistry...should I have him write down the starting time, and follow the schedule, but KEEP WORKING FOR A FULL HOUR EVERY DAY and then pick up in the schedule wherever that happens to be? And then, if we finish the basic book early, order the 2nd book, and work as far as we can until the end of the year?

 

I'm not worried about finishing the 2nd book necessarily. And, of course you know if I suddenly implement this new idea, the problem is, it's suddenly going to take an hour to finish whatever is written on the schedule for the day...as this is not a science-oriented kid, and the "reward" for finishing early last year was that - he "finished early". sigh!

 

I just started homeschooling on Monday, so I may not add much experience to this conversation but here I go.

 

I am also following Donna Young's plans but I am following her Chemistry plans.

 

I do what the paper says to do each day, and if I finish before the 45 minutes is up, then I finish and move onto my next subject. This helps a lot because some days my English would take longer or my History, and since I moved on after 20 minutes instead of 45 minutes, I had that extra 25 minutes that I would not have had before. I do the same with my other classes.

 

Hope I helped :)

[Rhondabee]

I'm a bit nervous about admitting this, but I take Carnegie hours (used as the sole means of determining credits) with a very big grain of salt.

 

.

 

Thanks for the encouragement! I *know* that - I went to public school. But, it's easy to forget. It's easy to buy into the hype that it's hard for homeschoolers to go to college - I've been hearing that alot lately from teachers at church.

 

Glad you posted!

[Rhondabee]

I just started homeschooling on Monday, so I may not add much experience to this conversation but here I go.

 

I am also following Donna Young's plans but I am following her Chemistry plans.

 

I do what the paper says to do each day, and if I finish before the 45 minutes is up, then I finish and move onto my next subject. This helps a lot because some days my English would take longer or my History, and since I moved on after 20 minutes instead of 45 minutes, I had that extra 25 minutes that I would not have had before. I do the same with my other classes.

 

Hope I helped :)

 

Yes - and good luck with your year!

[PeterPan]

...the hype that it's hard for homeschoolers to go to college - I've been hearing that alot lately from teachers at church.

 

 

Huh??? Where I worked we received and evaluated LOTS of homeschool applicants. They did a multi-year study of incoming freshman, compared their prior schooling (cs, ps, homeschool), and found that by the end of the year the homeschool students were right with everyone else (statistically, grades for basic freshman classes). That's NOT to say students aren't coming in with deficiencies, just that they CAN be overcome. Where I worked, the #1 issue they found was with writing skills. Believe it or not, some moms don't feel confident grading or requiring assignments, don't make their kids write, or even worse will do the assignments for the child!

 

Obviously your friends are seeing something, but it would be interesting to know WHAT they're seeing.

[FloridaLisa]

It's easy to buy into the hype that it's hard for homeschoolers to go to college - I've been hearing that alot lately from teachers at church.

 

Glad you posted!

 

Obviously your friends are seeing something, but it would be interesting to know WHAT they're seeing.

 

Or assuming something that just isn't true. At least it's not in the two areas that I've lived in. Homeschoolers are getting into public and private schools by the bushel *with* excellent scholarships (and doing well once they are there). If you *hear* this again, I would definitely probe the source and evidence a bit.

 

Lisa

[Rhondabee]

Or assuming something that just isn't true. At least it's not in the two areas that I've lived in. Homeschoolers are getting into public and private schools by the bushel *with* excellent scholarships (and doing well once they are there). If you *hear* this again, I would definitely probe the source and evidence a bit.

 

Lisa

 

We have a very good Christian school in the area (we live in one the best school districts in the Atlanta area, and this school competes for the best students). One the teacher/administrators for the Christian school, a couple of public high-school administrators, and several high school teachers go to our church.

 

The Christian school administrator taught my DS in Sunday school during his middle school years. He subbed for the high school class last Sunday, and asked my DS to stay after for a private talk. He was greatly encouraging to my son - telling him he *had* to go to college, that he was so mature in his thinking, not to be discouraged and let the other kids drag him down, that he would write recommendations for him, blah, blah, blah.... BUT - then came all the comments about homeschooling, and not being able to get into a good college, etc. - comments which only mirrored the numerous, smaller comments made throughout the last few months by the handful of others.

 

So, these are not *college* people - these are high-school teachers and administrators. I don't know what they're seeing, or if they're "seeing" anything at all. And right now I'm not in a place to care. I have been dealing with health issues brought on by a childhood injury and hormonal changes and migraines reacting together, and I am just not in a place emotionally or physically to want to deal with setting anyone or anything straight. I just want to get my disorganized ducks in a row and take care of my own. :tongue_smilie:

 

(OhElizabeth - ROFLOL - I admit I let things slide when my entire left side was burning & tingling & numb for 4 solid weeks. But I refuse to write essays, and everyone here *knows* I can't do science experiments - LOL!!!! Seriously, I chose My Father's World for next year's history & lit, and I signed DS up for the Lost Tools of Writing Class with Memoria Press for next year so that all his classes will have pre-written lesson plans. I know that God led me through that dark, dark place to lead me into something better. We're getting there.)

Edited June 28, 2010 by Rhondabee

[FloridaLisa]

I have been dealing with health issues brought on by a childhood injury and hormonal changes and migraines reacting together, and I am just not in a place emotionally or physically to want to deal with setting anyone or anything straight. I just want to get my disorganized ducks in a row and take care of my own. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh, I'm sorry you are going through this. I just wanted to offer a HUGE counter to what you are hearing to encourage you in your homeschooling. Maybe the SS teacher knows some homeschoolers that didn't make it into some great schools, but the general argument that hsers can't get into college hasn't been true (for years? ever?). Many blessings as you recuperate. :)

 

Lisa

[creekland]

 

The Christian school administrator taught my DS in Sunday school during his middle school years. He subbed for the high school class last Sunday, and asked my DS to stay after for a private talk. He was greatly encouraging to my son - telling him he *had* to go to college, that he was so mature in his thinking, not to be discouraged and let the other kids drag him down, that he would write recommendations for him, blah, blah, blah.... BUT - then came all the comments about homeschooling, and not being able to get into a good college, etc. - comments which only mirrored the numerous, smaller comments made throughout the last few months by the handful of others.

 

 

 

WOW! That was kind of nasty - and definitely incorrect! Granted, with a good ps or cs one can do well, but I know in our area, I'm homeschooling due to the lack of a decent education (IMO) in our ps. My oldest had no problem getting into the colleges he applied to although, due to his interests for his future, they weren't what people consider "top notch" schools prestige-wise. I'm convinced the school he's going to is the top notch one for his future though (Covenant College - in your neck of the woods more or less). He got nice merit aid offers at each place he applied to. My middle son is likely to want a more selective school and he opted to continue homeschooling so he could get there. It is highly unlikely that he would have the education needed to succeed in such a school if he had gone to our ps (IF he could get accepted having gone to our ps - few try, fewer are accepted). A good number of ours that go to college return after their first semester or year. Many need to start in remedial classes - even our salutatorian one year (who had taken many advanced courses).

 

My youngest "needs" to be different, and therefore, is returning to ps for 9th grade next year. He knows the only way he'll get to stay is if we do significant afterschooling in math and science so he'll be ready for college with the knowledge and not just the A's on the transcript. When we signed him up his guidance counselor took one look at his 8th grade standardized test scores (98% nationally) and said, "WOW, these are really good! What curricula do you use?" Our school very rarely gets anyone testing into the top percentiles once they reach high school (does well in elementary). It's not that the kids aren't intelligent enough, the education is lacking IMO.

 

So, while you might be in an area where you could have decent schools, there are definitely those of us who don't live in such areas. Our kids can do much better if NOT in ps. To have an administrator take my youngun aside and tell him anything like yours was told would have me steaming mad - esp since it's incorrect! I suspect he was hoping he'd soon have another student in his school - advertising (more or less). I'd be pulling him aside and having a talk, but that's just me. I'm certainly not saying you have to. If you do, print off the list of where hs kids have been accepted to and/or are attending college and show him exactly how "incapable" homeschoolers are.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying ALL homeschoolers can easily get into any college. A bit depends on the academic ability of the person and their dedication to academics as well as extra curriculars and such things. This board is superb to help people reach the target that is the right fit for their student. List what your son wants to do - some colleges he might want to head for - or even what he likes (if he doesn't know the above) and you'll get oodles of suggestions to consider.

[creekland]

Look at the last post on this thread:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148369&page=6

 

to get a list of where hs students have been accepted to and/or are attending.

[Joan in GE]

So, these are not *college* people - these are high-school teachers and administrators. I don't know what they're seeing, or if they're "seeing" anything at all. And right now I'm not in a place to care. I have been dealing with health issues brought on by a childhood injury and hormonal changes and migraines reacting together, and I am just not in a place emotionally or physically to want to deal with setting anyone or anything straight. I just want to get my disorganized ducks in a row and take care of my own. :tongue_smilie:

 

(OhElizabeth - ROFLOL - I admit I let things slide when my entire left side was burning & tingling & numb for 4 solid weeks. But I refuse to write essays, and everyone here *knows* I can't do science experiments - LOL!!!! Seriously, I chose My Father's World for next year's history & lit, and I signed DS up for the Lost Tools of Writing Class with Memoria Press for next year so that all his classes will have pre-written lesson plans. I know that God led me through that dark, dark place to lead me into something better. We're getting there.)

 

I see that you are in a "no extra energy" type of place, so I'm not trying to encourage action....(I feel for you)...

 

But I just wanted to say that I think that this person

 

The Christian school administrator taught my DS in Sunday school during his middle school years. He subbed for the high school class last Sunday, and asked my DS to stay after for a private talk. ..... BUT - then came all the comments about homeschooling, and not being able to get into a good college, etc. - comments which only mirrored the numerous, smaller comments made throughout the last few months by the handful of others.

 

is very out of place.....Imagine if you were to take his/her child aside and privately tell him that there are problems with the school he is in and you don't know if he will get into college????? I think the position is morally and Christian-wise incorrect - to demean the choice of the parent to the child privately....

 

And it is one of those "socialization" opportunities that we homeschoolers get outside of a school setting learning how to deal with people who act inappropriately....

 

Hoping your son can grow wiser through this...

Joan

[Teachin'Mine]

oops :)

Edited June 28, 2010 by Teachin'Mine

[Rhondabee]

Oh, I'm sorry you are going through this. I just wanted to offer a HUGE counter to what you are hearing to encourage you in your homeschooling. Maybe the SS teacher knows some homeschoolers that didn't make it into some great schools, but the general argument that hsers can't get into college hasn't been true (for years? ever?). Many blessings as you recuperate. :)

 

Lisa

 

Thanks! I'm sorry my post was somewhat snippy. I do appreciate the encouragement.

[PeterPan]

Rhonda, first, I'm sorry about your health challenges. Btdt, and I know it's hard! It sounds like you've made a lot of really good changes to keep things practical and moving forward. A moment, semester, or even year of hard times doesn't change the overall tenor of our progress and accomplishments. You're going to get there.

 

Now as far as this administrator and what he did, I'm going to edit my whole post. :) In my small experience, most cs are struggling and have an unfortunate competition with homeschoolers. The cs people don't know how to interpret homeschooling. Just because he has had negative examples come across his desk doesn't mean ALL homeschoolers or like that or that yours is. Have you done standardized testing? Have you had any sort of confirmation that you're on track? I would simply tell him that you'd done such and such assessment, feel comfortable you're on a good track, and could he not undermine your family's choices. Plain and simple.

Edited June 28, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[FloridaLisa]

Thanks! I'm sorry my post was somewhat snippy. I do appreciate the encouragement.

 

No snip interpreted here. ;) Homeschooling through high school can generate its share of fears. Just don't want you to let some outside comment stress you for no reason.

 

Lisa

[Rhondabee]

Rhonda, first, I'm sorry about your health challenges. Btdt, and I know it's hard! It sounds like you've made a lot of really good changes to keep things practical and moving forward. A moment, semester, or even year of hard times doesn't change the overall tenor of our progress and accomplishments. You're going to get there.

 

Now as far as this administrator and what he did, I'm going to edit my whole post. :) In my small experience, most cs are struggling and have an unfortunate competition with homeschoolers. The cs people don't know how to interpret homeschooling. Just because he has had negative examples come across his desk doesn't mean ALL homeschoolers or like that or that yours is. Have you done standardized testing? Have you had any sort of confirmation that you're on track? I would simply tell him that you'd done such and such assessment, feel comfortable you're on a good track, and could he not undermine your family's choices. Plain and simple.

 

 

Well, I'm glad I got to read it, however quickly, before it disappeared. ;)

 

I do know that this man is in the uneviable position of having to let a very high number of teachers go if enrollment does not drastically increase. However, I do *not* think he said *anything* to encourage my DS to enroll in his school. DS hasn't asked about enrolling - at - all - since this conversation, and this is a school that we had toured years ago before we moved to the area (when DS was entering 2nd grade), and he liked the school then, and he has friends now that go to the school.

 

Our biggest concern (my DH and I), was that this man asked DS to keep the conversation private. (My DH teaches this man's children at Aikido, so he's not a complete stranger.) So, anyway, I had to ask DS did he say anything to the effect that they had a "special relationship" and such. At which point, DS burst out laughing, and finally said no, that the man only meant not to go bragging to the other kids - not to keep it private from his parents. So, we all breathed a huge sigh of relief, talked through the whole thing, and I haven't thought that much about it until I sat down to put together DS's grades.

 

I will just be so glad when 9th grade is officially on paper and tucked away! I think I need to be off-line til then. Thank you all for being here. I am constantly amazed at how generous this board truly is!

[PeterPan]

Wow, that's pretty creepy that he asked your ds to keep the conversation private. What else would he want kept private? Sorry, but that's CREEPY. Either the guy has a glaring hole in his conscience that needs confrontation or something. And you know, any time that something bugs you so much that you come out and start talking about it in public, to me it's a sign that it needs to be confronted. I'd AT LEAST talk it through with your dh. But who am I to say. I let my dh figure out things like that, since I'm pretty reactive, as you can tell from that very deleted post. :)