Will you talk to me about LLATL?

[Annabel Lee]

Currently we're doing all LA components separately - grammar from FLL, writing skills from WWE, simply reading random good books for reading, penmanship from Abeka (learning cursive), and spelling from AAS. I just spent about an hour on the Common Sense Press site looking at LLATL. I like that it is cohesive and that the many subjects that are LA are all integrated. I wish I could take the content of FLL and WWE and combine it into the other things I'm using!

 

So... I have a whole bunch of questions: How does LLATL compare to the things I'm using? Does it provide as good a phonetic/rule-based spelling base as Abeka or AAS? How do the reading selections compare to other classical/CM curriculum's lists? Does LLATL include some of the books commonly seen on many book-lists? Is the grammar at least at the same level as FLL (or is it behind or ahead?)? Is the grammar as comprehensive? How does the writing instruction compare to WWE? Will it prepare a kid to learn parts of the progym by 7th or 9th grade? How does LLATL writing (not penmanship, but writing skill instruction) compare to CW?

 

I know that's alot of questions, but I can't just order up a batch of LLATL books just to review. If money were no object...

 

Thanks ladies! :)

[tiffany k]

I liked the look of it as well, so I bought the red level and the book pack. It is probably a great program, but it was so difficult to get it done. There was a lot of cutting and sorting and preparing and it felt random and disorganized. Maybe the other levels are easier to implement. I returned to FLL, WWE, AAS and HWT and we have made consistent progress, go figure. I suppose I am just better at an approach where we do the next page and move on. I teach a lesson of FLL and AAS and then later we do WWE or HWT. I wonder if you know someone who has LLATL so that you can see what each day's work is like? I think it is a great idea, but I found it impossible to continue with consistently. Of course, the older levels may not be as teacher intensive as the red level was.

[laurad1125]

For us, LLATL (we used orange - 4th grade) was easy enough to use but not rigorous enough. We changed to WWE, FLL, AAS, HWT. There just wasn't enough time -IMHO- spent on any of the subjects. Except writing, which was way beyond his ability. Also, They only read about 4-5 books the whole year. We bailed after 10 weeks or so. Even though we're at a lower grade level in all the replacements, he's doing more and learning more. YMMV! :-)

[coffeegal]

 

Will it prepare a kid to learn parts of the progym by 7th or 9th grade? How does LLATL writing (not penmanship, but writing skill instruction) compare to CW?

 

Thanks ladies! :)

 

:rant: I switched from CW to LLATL with the plan of covering enough grammar, gently, to reattempt CW Homer in the 9th grade. When I picked up next year's book (7th grade) it didn't cover as much grammar and diagramming as I expected. So, I headed out to a local educational store that carries LLATL and took a good look at the 8th grade book to ensure it had the necessary ramp up. It doesn't. FLL 3 begins to cover diagramming. LLATL covers basic diagramming in the 7th grade only. I'm still disgusted, this totally destroyed my LA plans from 1st grade - 8th grade, and nearly destroyed my high school plans. :banghead: We're switching over to Rod and Staff now. I'm not even going to bother finishing the year with LLATL. Think it's time for another pint of Ben and Jerry's.

 

At any rate... I loved the all-in-one approach, but it's not going to enable us to tackle Homer in a year or two. HTH!

[Laura W.]

So... I have a whole bunch of questions: How does LLATL compare to the things I'm using? Does it provide as good a phonetic/rule-based spelling base as Abeka or AAS? How do the reading selections compare to other classical/CM curriculum's lists? Does LLATL include some of the books commonly seen on many book-lists? Is the grammar at least at the same level as FLL (or is it behind or ahead?)? Is the grammar as comprehensive? How does the writing instruction compare to WWE? Will it prepare a kid to learn parts of the progym by 7th or 9th grade? How does LLATL writing (not penmanship, but writing skill instruction) compare to CW?

 

 

My oldest used LLATL yellow (3rd grade level) a couple of years ago, so I'm basing my answers on what I remember from that.

Spelling: It was not a phonetic/rules-based program, as I recall. The words were all from the selected literature passage. There were 5 regular words and one more challenging word each week.

Literature and reading selections: The student workbook only contained the excerpts from books, but you could certainly get a copy of the book and read it as well. Each year, the student also completes 4 book studies. Many of the excerpts LLATL uses and almost all the book studies come from books that are on other book lists.

Grammar: All the grammar my dd did in LLATL yellow were things she had studied in FLL 1/2. I have heard that if you stay with the program several years you will get comprehensive grammar instruction.

Writing: All different types of writing are practiced. While the student is shown models of good writing and expected to produce something similar, I didn't find much in the way of writing skill instruction. Other levels may be different.

 

Again, the only level my dd used was yellow. I hope you can get to a convention or find a person who will let you look at their books and get a better feel for the curriculum.

 

Blessings,

 

Laura

[Tree House Academy]

I used LLATL Blue with my youngest this year, and while we enjoyed it, it was VERY light and did not cover all of the phonics in one year. :( You have to move on to red to get the rest (or switch programs like we did!). We did LLATL orange with ds 9 and it was way too light. It had lots of neat stuff like book studies, a poetry section, a research section, and some other fun stuff, but overall, I found that it was lacking and was just.not.enough.

 

We switched both kids to CLE Language Arts (Spelling and lots of grammar) which is WONDERFUL, IMO. We are doing Reading with DITHOR (older son) and Heart of Dakota Emerging Readers (younger son), finishing phonics for my younger with Phonics Pathways and ETC, and doing writing with my older using WWE. This is MUCH better for us.

[hferguson10]

We used LLATL as well for a short time and I agree with what the others are saying as far as not very rigorous (not that it has to be), and it was a bit difficult for us to use. I also don't like cutting and pasting, which it involves. But some kids really need that kinetic work to make things click.

[ChildofGrace]

Currently we're doing all LA components separately - grammar from FLL, writing skills from WWE, simply reading random good books for reading, penmanship from Abeka (learning cursive), and spelling from AAS. I just spent about an hour on the Common Sense Press site looking at LLATL. I like that it is cohesive and that the many subjects that are LA are all integrated. I wish I could take the content of FLL and WWE and combine it into the other things I'm using!

 

So... I have a whole bunch of questions: How does LLATL compare to the things I'm using? Does it provide as good a phonetic/rule-based spelling base as Abeka or AAS? How do the reading selections compare to other classical/CM curriculum's lists? Does LLATL include some of the books commonly seen on many book-lists? Is the grammar at least at the same level as FLL (or is it behind or ahead?)? Is the grammar as comprehensive? How does the writing instruction compare to WWE? Will it prepare a kid to learn parts of the progym by 7th or 9th grade? How does LLATL writing (not penmanship, but writing skill instruction) compare to CW?

 

I know that's alot of questions, but I can't just order up a batch of LLATL books just to review. If money were no object...

 

Thanks ladies! :)

 

I think it's important to keep in mind that the Natural Language Approach, espoused by Ruch Beechick, provides foundation for the LLATL program. As such, it is not intended to be as "rigorous" as most textbooks. Instead, the idea is to continuously expose a child to great literature, relying on the "spiral method" to gradually ingrain proper grammar and writing skills in the student. Grammar instruction is delayed until a student is older and has already developed an "ear" for it through good writing. And the spelling portion is very light, relying mostly on copywork and dictation to do the job.

 

I know others often suggest choosing a grade level ahead in order to "remedy" the delay.

 

As for the reading, each year includes 4 book studies. The other lessons are drawn from excerpts of other books. I personally have (when possible) had my dc read those books as well. Both the book studies and literature passages are based on great literature. Some titles include: The Courage of Sarah Noble, The White Stallion, The Boxcar Children, Sign of the Beaver, Mr. Popper's Penguins, Trumpet of the Swan, Stawberry Girl, Amos Fortune, Caddie Woodlawn, Carry on Mr. Bowditch, Bambie, Prince Caspian, The Bronze Bow, Swiss Family Robinson, Swallows and Amazons, Black Beauty, Eight Cousins, Star of Light, Much Ado About Nothing, Gift of the Magi, Tale of Two Cities, Across Five Aprils, Black Arrow, A Lantern in Her Hand, and God's Smuggler.

 

Although we have not used the lower levels of LLATL, (due to my already owning a phonics program prior to finding it) we have used from Yellow to Gray, almost exclusively. I sometimes felt nervous when others mentioned how "behind" LLATL can seem, but made the decision to trust the approach and await the outcome. For us, the results have been wonderful. Both of my two oldest are excellent readers, prolific writers, and overall very comfortable with all things Language Arts. And, FWIW, my oldest did quite well on his first ACT, including in the Reading and English sections, scoring a 35 in the former and a 34 in the latter (out of a possible 36.)

 

All that being said, I do not think one would be happy without additional writing instruction. Indeed, the publishers recommend the Wordsmith series, which we have used following the Gray book, and been quite happy with.

[Susie in MS]

And, FWIW, my oldest did quite well on his first ACT, including in the Reading and English sections, scoring a 35 in the former and a 34 in the latter (out of a possible 36.)

 

Well that speaks loads!

[Annabel Lee]

I used LLATL Blue with my youngest this year, and while we enjoyed it, it was VERY light and did not cover all of the phonics in one year. :( You have to move on to red to get the rest (or switch programs like we did!). We did LLATL orange with ds 9 and it was way too light. It had lots of neat stuff like book studies, a poetry section, a research section, and some other fun stuff, but overall, I found that it was lacking and was just.not.enough.

 

We switched both kids to CLE Language Arts (Spelling and lots of grammar) which is WONDERFUL, IMO. We are doing Reading with DITHOR (older son) and Heart of Dakota Emerging Readers (younger son), finishing phonics for my younger with Phonics Pathways and ETC, and doing writing with my older using WWE. This is MUCH better for us.

 

If you don't mind, what is DITHOR? :confused:

 

I felt that way about the Blue level too when I was looking at the samples. It's meant to be 1st grade, but covers what my son has learned this year in K (in reading anyhow).

[Annabel Lee]

I think it's important to keep in mind that the Natural Language Approach, espoused by Ruch Beechick, provides foundation for the LLATL program. As such, it is not intended to be as "rigorous" as most textbooks. Instead, the idea is to continuously expose a child to great literature, relying on the "spiral method" to gradually ingrain proper grammar and writing skills in the student. Grammar instruction is delayed until a student is older and has already developed an "ear" for it through good writing. And the spelling portion is very light, relying mostly on copywork and dictation to do the job.

 

I know others often suggest choosing a grade level ahead in order to "remedy" the delay.

 

As for the reading, each year includes 4 book studies. The other lessons are drawn from excerpts of other books. I personally have (when possible) had my dc read those books as well. Both the book studies and literature passages are based on great literature. Some titles include: The Courage of Sarah Noble, The White Stallion, The Boxcar Children, Sign of the Beaver, Mr. Popper's Penguins, Trumpet of the Swan, Stawberry Girl, Amos Fortune, Caddie Woodlawn, Carry on Mr. Bowditch, Bambie, Prince Caspian, The Bronze Bow, Swiss Family Robinson, Swallows and Amazons, Black Beauty, Eight Cousins, Star of Light, Much Ado About Nothing, Gift of the Magi, Tale of Two Cities, Across Five Aprils, Black Arrow, A Lantern in Her Hand, and God's Smuggler.

 

Although we have not used the lower levels of LLATL, (due to my already owning a phonics program prior to finding it) we have used from Yellow to Gray, almost exclusively. I sometimes felt nervous when others mentioned how "behind" LLATL can seem, but made the decision to trust the approach and await the outcome. For us, the results have been wonderful. Both of my two oldest are excellent readers, prolific writers, and overall very comfortable with all things Language Arts. And, FWIW, my oldest did quite well on his first ACT, including in the Reading and English sections, scoring a 35 in the former and a 34 in the latter (out of a possible 36.)

 

All that being said, I do not think one would be happy without additional writing instruction. Indeed, the publishers recommend the Wordsmith series, which we have used following the Gray book, and been quite happy with.

 

Thanks for your response! That does speak loads! It's nice to learn about the philosophy behind the practice as well.

 

A friend of mine has a few levels, I just found out, so I will be able to look at them after all (yay!). She's starting her son next year a level ahead (orange for 3rd grade).

 

I really like the idea of it - it sounds great - but with so many others finding it 'too easy', I feel cautious about it. I won't know until I look at it. Thanks for all the input though, everyone.

[eclecticmom]

DITHOR is Drawn Into the Heart of Reading by Dakota. It's a book which helps you teach literature analysis.

[amtmcm]

ChildofGrace provided an excellent review and overview of the philosophy.

 

For us, after 5 years of Shurley, my DD needed a break from grammar, and LLATL Green was perfect! We tremendously enjoyed the literature studies, poetry, Shakespeare and there was just enough grammar to keep it fresh in her mind.

 

As you can see from my signature, we're using CLE this year, but I also have the LLATL Gold - American Lit and plan to use about half of it this year covering poetry, short stories & Red Badge of Courage. I also have LLATL Orange and will be using the Lit studies, poetry and the State report (teaches basic research paper) for my younger DD, even though it's not in my signature. :) I agree it's not as rigorous as other programs, but we really, really enjoyed it and I think that made the lessons memorable - both for DD & me.

[AudreyTN]

I think it's important to keep in mind that the Natural Language Approach, espoused by Ruch Beechick, provides foundation for the LLATL program. As such, it is not intended to be as "rigorous" as most textbooks. Instead, the idea is to continuously expose a child to great literature, relying on the "spiral method" to gradually ingrain proper grammar and writing skills in the student. Grammar instruction is delayed until a student is older and has already developed an "ear" for it through good writing. And the spelling portion is very light, relying mostly on copywork and dictation to do the job.

 

:iagree: Very well put. We are using the original edition and it does not include spelling. My dd does not need a spelling program, but my ds does. He's finishing up a Spellwell book right now and then I'm going to find something else.

[NavyWifeandMommy]

I have the orange book for my 4th grader. It's a laid back approach which is why I want to use it. The only thing that I am adding to it is First Language Lessons 4.

[Orthodox6]

I am combining LLATL with other products for my "slightly behind" dd now in 5th grade (as of today).

 

LLATL Purple, but omitting the book studies.

FLL-4

WWE

 

LLATL seems "chaotic" to me, too. Reminds me of the Sonlight language arts program which drove me bonkers, although it does not aggravate me so badly as did Sonlight. I can live with this book, tweaking it "my way" as needed. DD is learning very useful material, such as the meaning of "rhyme scheme" (in today's lesson). She liked applying the concept to writing her own poem.

 

FLL-4, by end of the year, will have covered enough standard grammar that, I expect, we can shift to a "normal" grammar program for grades 6 on up.

 

WWE is more of an "occasional gap plugger" for us. It requires no more than 5 minutes per day, so is no big deal.

[eclecticmom]

I initially switched from A Beka to LLATL red for my dyslexic daughter. It was just what she needed - short lessons, cutting and pasting, literature and spelling rules. My gifted son did Shurley 2 & 3 and then started into the Purple book for 4th grade (my daughter is now in the Yellow book for 2nd grade).

 

It was a well thought out, intentional change to switch from Shurley Grammar to a natural language learning method for my children. After researching how we learn language I believe that we pick up language from reading and listening to good literature and from listening to correct grammar usage in the home. We now use copywork, dictation and narration in K-4th grades. In 5th grade we'll start with IEW and learn how to outline the works of good authors. My 5th grader will also add Junior Analytical Grammar to his LLATL so he can learn to diagram. Some say this helps a writer learn to balance his sentences while composing or editing.

 

The overachiever side of me still gives me trouble when I talk with my Shurley-Grammar-diehard friends. I miss being able to say my child is writing five paragraph essays in 4th grade - it puts a tangible piece of paper in my hands that I can whip out to impress the grandparents. But I decided to give up that forced weekly output and invest in the less tangible building skills found in the copywork, narration and dictation. I listened to SWB in the WTM, to Ruth Beechick and other authors and felt they presented a good case. LLATL contains all of the "extras" I was missing in Shurley plus the copywork approach. I've tried supplementing spelling, writing, etc. but found that I was just duplicating what was already in the program.

Edited January 19, 2010 by eclecticmom
grammar