Alana in Canada Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I am struggling with what to do next. We have done Lively Latin for a year. The kids have been exposed to three declensions and one case. (Though we have memorized all nouns in both the nominitive and genitive case). As for verbs, we memorize five different forms and they are expected to recognize all three regular tense endings for past perfect, present and future (in addition to the irregular sum). We are also supposed to know how to conjugate adjectives (and where to put them, eg, magnitude and size come before the noun, all others after) The thing of it is--nothing is sticking. I don't mind going on to LL2, (my son loved the history) but I really want something that will help solidify all we have supposedly learned. Did I "teach" it wrong? Did we not review enough? --or is this par for the course with a language course? Any insight much appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latinteach Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) I am struggling with what to do next. We have done Lively Latin for a year. The kids have been exposed to three declensions and one case. (Though we have memorized all nouns in both the nominitive and genitive case). As for verbs, we memorize five different forms and they are expected to recognize all three regular tense endings for past perfect, present and future (in addition to the irregular sum). We are also supposed to know how to conjugate adjectives (and where to put them, eg, magnitude and size come before the noun, all others after) The thing of it is--nothing is sticking. I don't mind going on to LL2, (my son loved the history) but I really want something that will help solidify all we have supposedly learned. Did I "teach" it wrong? Did we not review enough? --or is this par for the course with a language course? Any insight much appreciated Learning Latin (or any other language) generally involves learning both 1) vocabulary and forms as well as 2) syntax, which shows how words fit together to make thoughts and sentences. It sounds as if you have done very well in learning the vocabulary and forms. However, syntax is also important. Many people are very disappointed that once they've learned how to decline and conjugate that they can't read more Latin. It's also important to learn syntax, the way the words all fit together into patterns, in order to read and apply this knowledge. It's not usually par for the course with other languages, because most modern languages abandoned the strict grammar method a long time ago, and they teach forms and syntax concurrently. There are definitely patterns in the way that Latin is written. Words aren't placed randomly in sentences. This is why programs that combine grammar with syntax generally lead to better Latin reading fluency. However, having studied grammar so intensely means that if you now work on syntax, you've got the grammar down, so you can really practice working on syntax. You might consider Cambridge, LNM, Ecce, or even Lingua Latina, so that you can start working on the reading of Latin, putting all those pieces together. You've done well with forms and now you need to take it to a new level. LL is a good beginning point, what you have is basically the first semester of Latin. These books don't separate the history from the readings, so when you are doing the Latin readings, you are also learning history/culture, so you don't have to create so much time for history/culture, because it's woven into the Latin. See The Art of Reading Latin (Wiliam Gardner Hale, 1887) Also the Rules for Reading Latin Prose (free poster of the rules, scroll down to the end of the page, excerpted from a book Latin, How to Read it Fluently: A Practical Manual Edited March 19, 2009 by latinteach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Learning Latin (or any other language) generally involves learning both 1) vocabulary and forms as well as 2) syntax, which shows how words fit together to make thoughts and sentences. It sounds as if you have done very well in learning the vocabulary and forms. However, syntax is also important. Many people are very disappointed that once they've learned how to decline and conjugate that they can't read more Latin. It's also important to learn syntax, the way the words all fit together into patterns, in order to read and apply this knowledge. It's not usually par for the course with other languages, because most modern languages abandoned the strict grammar method a long time ago, and they teach forms and syntax concurrently. There are definitely patterns in the way that Latin is written. Words aren't placed randomly in sentences. This is why programs that combine grammar with syntax generally lead to better Latin reading fluency. However, having studied grammar so intensely means that if you now work on syntax, you've got the grammar down, so you can really practice working on syntax. You might consider Cambridge, Ecce, or even Lingua Latina, so that you can start working on the reading of Latin, putting all those pieces together. See The Art of Reading Latin (Wiliam Gardner Hale, 1887) Also the Rules for Reading Latin Prose (free poster of the rules, scroll down to the end of the page, excerpted from a book Latin, How to Read it Fluently: A Practical Manual I just wanted to thank you for your posts, which have been very helpful to me. I'll also add my experience -- we suffered through LLI & II and Henle, sort of like taking your castor oil. Early on we tried Cambridge but found it frustrating, for all the reasons Jean mentioned in another thread. Just last week I dug out our old Cambridge again, listened to all the tracks on the CD and understood everything! It was delightful. Having all that grammar under my belt worked, and I truly thought I hadn't really learned much and that nothing was sticking. This is why Latin for the New Millennium is looking better and better for me, as my youngest is getting to the age where we can look at Latin for him. It seems to combine both the grammar and the whole language really beautifully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) Thank you Latinteach! I will look into those resources you mentioned. Let me clarify, however. I'm not upset we can't read more Latin: I'm concerned we cannot do the Latin we're supposed to know already very well. For example, there is far too much flipping back and forth with their pages when they translate or compose. In a recent excercise, we were to choose the correct form of the adjective (from 3 given) and then translate the sentence: Regina in ________ silva (macron over a) spectat. magno (macron over o), magna (macron over a) magna Oh my heavens. Every single word had to be looked up on the vocabulary sheets. Then, we had to get out another sheet where we had listed the decelensions separately. Then, we had to look up what our lesson had said about the position of adjectives. Then another was consulted on agreement. It was excruciating and nearly impossible with six sentences. Are we really ready to "move on'? I feel like we hardly know anything. I would have expected them to be able to hold some of the pieces in their heads by now! Edited March 19, 2009 by Alana in Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Okay, then. Forget what I said! I am not familiar with Lively Latin. Perhaps someone who is can weigh in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainforest mama Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Have they memorized their vocabulary? Do they practice their flashcards every day? The Magistra says that you need to overlearn everything for it to come easily. We're not as far along as you in Lively Latin, so I don't have any other suggestions. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 The flashcards became unwieldly. Instead we just did the current vocab on the computer every day. But it doesn't seem to have been enough. I don't know. It could be one of those growing things. My son and I just went over his math and he's "forgotten" how to multiply a two digit number by a two digit number. Sigh. I've been reading Mr. Hale's book. Interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latinteach Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Let me clarify, however. I'm not upset we can't read more Latin: I'm concerned we cannot do the Latin we're supposed to know already very well. For example, there is far too much flipping back and forth with their pages when they translate or compose. Regina in ________ silva (macron over a) spectat. magno (macron over o), magna (macron over a) magna Oh my heavens. Every single word had to be looked up on the vocabulary sheets.It definitely sounds like time needs to be spent reviewing vocabulary. There are lots of ways to do this. Flashcards are good. Does Magistra also have Quia games that you can use for reviewing vocabulary? Those are also good. If your students are visual thinkers, you might try using pictures to help them remember the meanings of words. You might try doing more vocabulary games and activities. Then, we had to get out another sheet where we had listed the decelensions separately.Since LL is dependent upon knowing declensions, you'll want to spend some time ensuring these are memorized as well. Magistra should have some games for this. You can also try different ways of chanting and reciting them, but you want to get to where you can recognize a case without having to think of the whole declension. Then, we had to look up what our lesson had said about the position of adjectives. Then another was consulted on agreement.It's a fill in the blank, so position is taken care of for you in this example. The main thing Magistra is looking for here is agreement (she's looking for a feminine ablative adjective to agree with silvā, a feminine ablative noun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) It's a fill in the blank, so position is taken care of for you in this example. Well, you and I would think so, but the child translated it as "the big queen." Just tell me not to give up. Tell me the thrill of reading Cicero or whomever in the original is worth it. Is this your site, latinteach? http://www.latinteach.com/Site/RESOURCES/Entries/2008/5/28_Latin_Quizzes_and_Games.html Edited March 19, 2009 by Alana in Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latinteach Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Well, you and I would think so, but the child translated it as "the big queen." Regina in magnā silvā spectat.The preposition between regina and magnā and the proximity of magnā to silvā, plus the macron above the magnā are hints that it goes with silvā. There is a basic rule that does state that "when the attribute is emphatic, it is commonly put before the substantive, otherwise in classical Latin ordinarily after it." Which is to say, when the adjective is emphasizing something, it goes in front of the noun it modifies, otherwise it is usually after it. But this mostly suggestion, and not really a rule. It's okay to spend time discussing these things and working out why the answer the Magistra gave you is the correct one. It's okay not to get it right away. Practice is good. Just tell me not to give up. Tell me the thrill of reading Cicero or whomever in the original is worth it.Don't give up! :001_smile: There are lots of good things to read in the original language. This is a more recent update of the webpage you mention: http://www.latinteach.com/Site/RESOURCES/Entries/2008/6/5_Latin_Quizzes_and_Games.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I'm concerned we cannot do the Latin we're supposed to know already very well. For example, there is far too much flipping back and forth with their pages when they translate or compose. Oh my heavens. Every single word had to be looked up on the vocabulary sheets. Then, we had to get out another sheet where we had listed the decelensions separately. Then, we had to look up what our lesson had said about the position of adjectives. Then another was consulted on agreement. It was excruciating and nearly impossible with six sentences. We are working on Latina Christiana 2 (and I have no idea how it compares to your program). It does say in the TM that you have to overlearn the vocab (Latin to English, English to Latin) and the grammar forms. And it also says that doing the exercises in the book will be tough and kids will continually make mistakes and that this is normal right now. It's because they are overlearning all this stuff at the same time as doing exercises and they are practicing translating back and forth correctly in the exercises, doing the page flipping, etc.. I've found it to be true. Just when ya think you've got a sentence written correctly in Latin, BAM! You find you missed an ending, or a case, or a preposition, or a verb tense, or an adjective conjugation. It's complicated!!!! Anyway, that's why they say to overlearn it the vocab and grammar forms, so the exercises are a little easier. So overlearn it we are doing. Every day. Chanting every day through the cards. Then fumbling through the exercises. If we didn't do the cards, the exercises would be impossible. I'm having another panic week (I had one last year about Latin, too) about next year's Latin. But I got through most of it already for this year and feel pretty good about it, I just have to talk myself into doing the next one (Henle 1 with MP guide). Hey, I finally sort of get 3rd declension - that was major for me!!!! Carry on, overlearning! It's normal, I think, at least I hear anyway!:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74Heaven Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 We are working on Latina Christiana 2 (and I have no idea how it compares to your program). It does say in the TM that you have to overlearn the vocab (Latin to English, English to Latin) and the grammar forms. And it also says that doing the exercises in the book will be tough and kids will continually make mistakes and that this is normal right now. It's because they are overlearning all this stuff at the same time as doing exercises and they are practicing translating back and forth correctly in the exercises, doing the page flipping, etc.. I've found it to be true. Just when ya think you've got a sentence written correctly in Latin, BAM! You find you missed an ending, or a case, or a preposition, or a verb tense, or an adjective conjugation. It's complicated!!!! Anyway, that's why they say to overlearn it the vocab and grammar forms, so the exercises are a little easier. So overlearn it we are doing. Every day. Chanting every day through the cards. Then fumbling through the exercises. If we didn't do the cards, the exercises would be impossible. I'm having another panic week (I had one last year about Latin, too) about next year's Latin. But I got through most of it already for this year and feel pretty good about it, I just have to talk myself into doing the next one (Henle 1 with MP guide). Hey, I finally sort of get 3rd declension - that was major for me!!!! Carry on, overlearning! It's normal, I think, at least I hear anyway!:D I think this is similiar to our experience. I have 4 children in Latin, 2 in Henle (2nd year in First Yr Book; units III, IV & V) and one in LFC A and one in LFC "B". The Henle high schoolers are doing lots of review every week of some of the same vocab, chants declensions, etc. as their younger sibs but the olders (who are also learning more vocab, grammar, etc.) handle the declensions and vocab and sentence constructions with amazing ease. Their Henle sometimes strikes me as too much review, but OTOH my students' use of grammar, parsing, etc. depth is extremely impressive. I think the OP needs to see how LL (in the next year) cements the first yr LL learning. If so, I'd guess you are going to be fine. If not, the vocab review suggestions given here should serve you well. God's best! Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 We are doing LL1 and we are on Chapter 12. My son has to practice vocabulary every day and for the exercises he can recall the vocabulary without looking. Right now there are a lot of flashcards so he does 1/2 of them everyday. Every. Single. Day. Wow, what a fun Mom I am!!! :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 In Present tense verb endings, what does the "t" stand for?" So, what does it stand for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasta Mom Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 isn't it that he, she, or it did the action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Yeah, well, let's just say it isn't just the kids who need that review! By the by--the William Gardner Hale is well worth reading. Section 7 is oddly encouraging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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