WWYD with this child?

[Quiver0f10]

He has been using R&S English and is in book 7 and is in grade 7. Yesterday he tells me he doesn't know what an adjective is ( we use IEW for writing so this is a rediculous claim) and today I was having him do a daily grams page and he said he didn't know what a contraction is.:glare: Every day doing english with him is the same; blank stares and shrugged shulders. We work through it together and he seems to get it until the next day. I can't figure out if it's attitude or he really just doesn't get english?

 

Should I back track and start over with a lower level of R&S? Maybe another program such as Easy Grammar? Send him to PS :lol:

[Christy B]

You know, this was my dd until this year. Every year we did either R&S or Abeka grammar. Every year she had. no. clue. Finally, in desperation, I set aside all the workbooks and textbooks and used Our Mother Tongue the second half of 7th grade.

 

This year, she went off to school, and has done beautifully with Abeka grammar in grade 8. ( Hey, maybe sending him to PS *would* be the answer. :lol: ) Maybe it was the semester of Our Mother Tongue, maybe it was having a live teacher, maybe it was just maturity. I have no idea. I do know that OMT explained concepts very well, and it moved quickly enough that, for the first time, I think dd got the "big picture".

 

Have you always used R&S? If so, maybe he really does need a different perspective. Also, I'm thinking that between R&S, IEW, and Daily Grams, maybe he's just on grammar overload. I'd be tempted to cut back or find a very streamlined program, or maybe something with a video component (based on the experience of my dd suddenly doing great in a classroom setting). I've been intrigued by Sonlight's Grammar Ace program which utilizes School House Rock.

 

Hope you find something that helps; I know exactly how disconcerting it is to have a 7th grader forget what an adjective is!

[Merry]

getting enough grammar. I would suggest that he just plug away at it so that he won't forget it entirely. My son didn't get it either until he was in tenth or eleventh grade when the light bulb went on, then he aced his BJU grammar book in a couple months. He's an art major at college now. Is it a possible that your ds is a visual spatial learner like my ds?

[Brenda in MA]

If you really don't think he is able to retain things with Rod & Staff, it might be wise to switch to another program.

 

Have you ever used Winston Grammar? I used this with both of my boys, and they both really learned a lot from it. Winston has little colored cards for each of the parts of speech; each card also has clues as to how to analyze a word. For example, the adjective card said "Which? What kind? How many? How much?" If the word answered those questions, it was likely an adjective. These little cues have really stuck with me since we haven't used Winston for 4 years!

 

Anyway, the student lays out the cards in a line to match the words in the sentences given. We did 4 or 5 sentences each day, and they start out pretty easy and get harder. One thing I did that I think really helped the boys "see" the information was to write out the workbook sentences on a large tabletop white board and have them lay the correct card under each word. I think visually seeing the words and the cards helped them to start to see patterns in sentences. Handling the cards gave their busy hands something to do.

 

The downside to Winston is that it only covers analyzing the sentences for parts of speech. There is no diagramming or instruction on proper use of punctuation or capitals.

 

Just a thought,

Brenda

[Julie in GA]

First of all, R&S can lend itself to this problem, because you'll spend a lot of time on one part of speech and then move on. Of course, if he's forgetting what an adjective is while you're doing the unit on adjectives, then it's not that.

 

Another thought: my sons would often forget the name of a part of speech, but would still know what it was. I knew this becuase they would, for example, diagram a sentence correctly, showing the adjectives modifying the correct nouns, etc. It was just a matter of forgetting the name, not the actual idea and function.

 

However, if you have a 7th grader doing this often, then it sounds like he hasn't needed to internalize the definitions, or that it may even be a motivational issue. You may have to come up with an oral daily drill that he must get 100% correct in order to receive a certain reward, grade, check-off, or whatever you use in your house. Maybe the parts of speech could be added to his memory work list and he could go over it in the a.m. If he gets it wrong, he has to try again during the grammar lesson. If he still gets it wrong, then he has to do it again right before supper. Something like that.

 

HTH,

[Quiver0f10]

Thanks everyone. You know, I do think he does know what an adj is but not that is was an adj. I am thinking R&S might not be the best program for him though. He struggles with it so much, that maybe a different approach might work.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Quiver0f10

[Lori D.]

... to see if it helps the grammar (which he probably does know, just doesn't realize he knows -- lol) "click". Your 2 examples (contractions, adjectives) suggest running through Winston Basic -- it's more visual and more hands-on rather than straight workbook approach, using cards with visual "clues" to help the student remember what parts of speech do what.

 

Often, when our boys started just "random wild guessing," or staring blankly and saying, "I don't know", I would sit down one-on-one with them and talk through the process of parsing the sentence with them -- starting with the very simple sentence (subject and verb) and then eliminating the parts of speech, phrases, etc., they already knew -- which helped our boys figure out whatever tough element in the grammar they had been stumbling over.

 

While you decide what to do grammar-wise, below are tips we've used to help simplify grammar. BEST of luck in your grammar journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

 

1. First have the student identify the "simple sentence": the "who" or "what" the sentence is about (SUBJECT), and the verb (the simple PREDICATE). Remind them that *everything else* is simply adding on in one way or another to this simple (basic) sentence.

 

 

2. Have them first label the parts of speech that they DO know and that are easy to identify to get those out of the way -- nouns, pronouns, verbs, coordinating conjunctions, interjections. That usually leaves only a few words to figure out and deal with -- usually helping verbs, prepositions, adjectives and adverbs are the ones that tripped up our boys. Here are some "clues" to help you figure out those trickier parts of speech:

 

a. Helping Verbs.

Memorize the list of helping verbs (there are only about 15 of them), so those are then easy to identify.

 

b. Prepositions.

Two ways to think learn these: by the job they do; and by memorizing to a tune. The job prepositions do usually has to do with the POSITION of a noun in the sentence -- see the word POSITION in "prePOSITION" (examples: "under the bed"; "on the table"; "over the river"; "through the woods"). So when you find a word like after, before, above, beneath, etc., you're dealing with a preposition.

 

Or, just memorize the most common prepositions (about 3 dozen) to a song tune like "London Bridge", so those are pretty easy to identify.

 

c. Adjectives.

ADjectives ADD ON TO (modify) nouns, and are usually right next to the noun. Adjectives usually answer the question: "What kind?" (Examples: "The STINKY dog ran." (What kind of dog? A STINKY dog.) "I loved my BLUE shirt!" (What kind of shirt? A BLUE shirt. "The sad teacher cried." (What kind of teacher? A SAD teacher.))

 

The only times adjectives get tricky is if you have a linking verb (verb of being); sometimes the noun is the subject, then there is a linking verb, and THEN the adjective FOLLOWS the noun and is in the PREDICATE (after the verb). Asking the question "What kind?" can help you here, too. (Examples: "The dog is STINKY." (what kind of dog? a stinky dog) "My shirt was BLUE." (what kind of shirt? a blue shirt) "The teacher seemed SAD." (what kind of teacher? a sad teacher)).

 

d. Adverbs.

ADverbs ADD ON TO (modify) verbs, adjectives, or other adverbs. Adverbs usually answer the question "How?" or "When?". Sometimes adverbs are next to the word they are modifying, but often not. Use those questions to help narrow down what is an adverb and what the adverb is modifying. (Examples: "The stinky dog ran fast." (How did the dog run? answer: fast -- since fast is adding on to how the dog RAN, and ran is a verb, fast must be an adverb.) "Yesterday I loved my blue shirt!" (When did you love the shirt? answer: yesterday -- since "yesterday" is telling us about when the loving happened, it must be an adverb, adding onto a verb). "I loved my very blue shirt." (does very add onto the shirt -- "a very shirt?" no, that doesn't make sense, so very can't be an adjective. How about: how blue was the shirt? answer: very blue; "very" is adding onto "blue"; "blue" is an adjective, so "very" must be an adverb, because adverbs are what add onto adjectives, verbs or other adverbs)

 

Here's a tricky example: "The sad teacher did not cry." (did is a helping verb; so what part of speech is "not"? It is actually an adverb adding onto the verb "cry" -- it adds on in a special way by "negating" or by making the verb say the opposite!)

 

 

3. Contractions.

The word "contract" means to squeeze down and get smaller; in grammar a contraction is jamming two words together to get a smaller word with an apostrophe to show you where you left out letters from the two original words. Example:

 

can not = can't (squeezed 2 words together, dropping out the "n" and "o" from "not"; and put an apostrophe in the place of the dropped letters to show we dropped them out)

 

The tricky thing about contractions is that they still represent TWO words, even though they are written as ONE word, so when you are figuring out parts of speech, a contraction (which now looks like one word) will represent the TWO parts of speech of the original two words! The easiest way to figure out what those two parts of speech are, is to re-write the contraction as the two original words first. Example:

 

- original sentence: "Joe CAN'T swim."

- rewrite the contraction: "Joe CAN NOT swim."

 

- now label what you know: Joe = noun; swim = verb

 

- run through memorized helping verbs: can = helping verb

 

- now do some deduction: is "not" a noun? pronoun? verb? conjunction? interjection? preposition? -- NO

 

- what parts of speech are left?: adjective or adverb

 

- is "not" adding onto a noun?: well, the only noun is "Joe"; so if it's adding onto Joe it would sound like: "not Joe" -- NO, doesn't make sense

 

- "not" must be an adverb!

 

- let's check: adverbs add onto verbs, adjectives and other adverbs; do we have any of those in this sentence? -- YES, a verb; "not swim" -- does that make sense? YES, it's an adverb changing a verb, "swim" into the opposite meaning -- it's an adverb!

 

- CONCLUSION:

- "can't" is a contraction of "can" and "not"

- with the "can" part of the contraction being the helping verb "can"

- and the "-'t" part of the contraction being the adverb "not"

[Lori D.]

oops, heh-heh, while I took forever to write the above response, the thread moved on, and you all said what I was saying and came to the same conclusions ahead of me. ::embarrassed::

[Kareni]

But it was such a lovely and informative post! So, don't apologize ....

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Nan in Mass]

So if this is a repeat or totally off, just ignore it.

 

It sounds sort of what like happened to my children when they tried Saxon math - unable to put all the little puzzle pieces together into the big picture. Perhaps you can run over all of grammar in one fell swoop? I've taken an hour and listed all the kinds of words, like adj., noun, etc., and then shown how the different sorts of words fit into sentences. That seems to help. And I have to admit that at the beginning of every break I run over all the names and their definitions again to make sure the children remember them. Or maybe he just doesn't retain the labels? Or maybe it is a brain blip? My children say things like this. We call them brain blips. I tend not to believe them when they don't know what est means in Latin or they don't know what an integer is. Usually, within a few hours, they remember. Or when I remind them, they say, "Oh yeah! Why didn't I remember that?" It is VERY VERY frustrating, and I've been there many times. Hang in there.

 

-Nan

[Moira in MA]

I never really got English grammar until I looked at it in the context of foreign language study. If your dc is learning another language try taking a look at the appropriate book in the English Grammar for Students of (insert your language here).

 

The compare and contrast approach really helps.

 

~Moira

[Vida Winter]

I'd make him sit through Schoolhouse Rock about a dozen times.

[SheWhoWaits]

Send him to PS :lol:

 

Well I can tell you that that won't solve his problem. They don't teach grammar at all in the public schools.

[Tullia]

He eventually got past it, and I think your son will too, so long as you don't give up. I also agree with the earlier post that studying a second language is helpful.

 

In some cases, people who have a high level of "language awareness" (please don't ask me for an empirical definition of that, lol) struggle with basic grammar. IMO, it's partly because they're either over-thinking the classifications or because they're having trouble understanding that words may look and sound like one part of speech, but may function as another part of speech when found in a different context than the examples which have been presented in textbook exercises.

 

Sometimes the word clusters which function as parts of speech in their own right, such as the "adverbial prepositional phrase", can confuse the beginning grammar student. Analyzing sentences at the word by word level is often misleading because most "real" sentences incorporate word clusters.

 

For more about how to look at sentence structure from the perspective of word clusters, I like Prof. Robert Einarsson's worktext which you can get free, online:

 

http://www.classiclanguagearts.net/workbook.htm

 

Prof. Einarsson sometimes quotes from an old grammar text called A Functional English Grammar by Margaret M. Bryant. She does a good job of explaining the tension between structural definitions as usually taught and how words are used in real sentences.

 

You might need to sit down with this child and act out or discuss sentences given in your text. One or two sentences each day should be enough. Also, insist that he memorize the list of the parts of speech along with a brief definition. Then, talk about sentences in terms of subject, what is being asserted of/about the subject, and how the other words elaborate on those two elements of the sentence. Doing that will help you review the parts of speech and their definitions in a meaningful way beyond just a test question of "list and define the parts of speech". Time plus the increasing ability to think abstractly usually takes care of the problem.

 

Part of the problem is that beginning grammar students are usually already reading and using structurally complicated language in an intuitive way. Analyzing language in a systematic way requires, especially at first, that you limit yourself, begin with the basics, and then move on to more complex elements.

 

HTH,

Martha

[Jean in Wisc]

Thanks everyone. You know, I do think he does know what an adj is but not that is was an adj. I am thinking R&S might not be the best program for him though. He struggles with it so much, that maybe a different approach might work.

 

Is he dyslexic? Or...?

 

My ds could never remember what the names for the parts of speech were, but he could diagram and put them in the right place almost every time. I decided that understanding their usage was much more important than being able to name them.

 

As he has grown older (he is now 16), he has been able to remember terms better. I figure that every child has an area that is a struggle, and we as moms get to decide if this is worth stewing about or not. If you say to him, "We've studied the adjectives before--you know, 'yellow' cat, 'big' dog..." If you say something like that and it "clicks", then I'd say you are dealing with a retention problem outside of learning grammar.

 

But that is just what I see here with my son...:) Good luck.

 

Jean

[Quiver0f10]

Thank you everyone for the ideas. As far as dyslexia, he spells horrid and I have wondered if he was, but he can read pretty good.

[AuntieM]

A big book of Mad Libs! If he's getting the concepts, but just forgetting certain parts, maybe these will help. Perhaps it would just be a helpful diagnostic to start with... you know, to see if he is able to do it when it just seems like a game....

 

ETA - based on my subject line, you'd think I never took grammar or spelling! I get frustrated that I can't edit that part!

[Jean in Wisc]

Thank you everyone for the ideas. As far as dyslexia, he spells horrid and I have wondered if he was, but he can read pretty good.

 

There is something called Stealth Dyslexia. My son reads above his grade level.

[Guest love_classical_ed]

I also never really understood grammar until I took a foreign language, yet I was still pretty good at using it (without naming parts of speech). I agree with the previous posts that suggest you move on to something else. I would suggest skipping a formal grammar program and just teach everything within context. Good luck!

[Quiver0f10]

There is something called Stealth Dyslexia. My son reads above his grade level.

 

 

Interesting, thanks!

[choirfarm]

I am with a couple of other people that it didn't stick until I took Latin. I know that I had done many worksheets up until that point in ps, but most worksheets you just follow a pattern without really knowing what you are doing. But you HAVE to know whether you are using that noun as a subject, direct object, possessive, etc before you know what ending to put on it. So suddenly a light came on for me.

 

Christine