How much writing for 8th grade

[LauraClark]

Ds12 is my guinea pig child. He's smart, but not very motivated so it's hard to know how much to give him. It becomes a lot more clear with my ds10 if I overdid or underdid anything with ds12. Anyway, I'm curious on how much writing you have your 8th grader doing. Specifically: 

-if I assigned a paper for science instead of a test (something like, "describe the digestive system from a piece of food's perspective") would it be reasonable to expect the rough draft paper to be finished after 2 full days (I plan for an hour of science/day)? This is just the writing part-all the reading about the digestive system should already be completed. 

-about how many papers are you having your child write a week/month/year? Do you have a separate writing curriculum or try to integrate in other subjects? 

-have you taught MLA standards by this age? I am really really dreading it for some reason-it seems like drudgery and I keep putting it off.

Thanks in advance!

[Lori D.]

 

5 hours ago, LauraClark said:

-if I assigned a paper for science instead of a test (something like, "describe the digestive system from a piece of food's perspective") would it be reasonable to expect the rough draft paper to be finished after 2 full days (I plan for an hour of science/day)? This is just the writing part-all the reading about the digestive system should already be completed. 

It would not have been reasonable for either of my DSs at age 12, whether they had 2 days or 2 months to do so. Both were later-bloomers in the thinking areas needed for writing a paper, even if it was only 1-3 paragraphs long. They still heavily needed my involvement in those early stages of the paper, asking leading questions to help them brainstorm (generate) ideas of what to say and then organize (sort and arrange -- first sort through all of the brainstorming and select what works together, and then organize -- group/list their ideas in a way that flows).

If you provided not only the specific topic, but also sat with your DS while he brainstormed and organized, and just prompted/guided here and there as needed, until he had his completed "writing roadmap" (an outline, graphic organizer, bullet point list, or other organized structure to draft from) -- then yes, I would say 2 days is reasonable for turning out a complete rough draft (turning the writing roadmap into complete sentences and paragraphs), if it about 3 paragraphs long. (Maybe 5 paragraphs in 2 days, if he is a strong writer -- but again, just doing drafting from a previously completed "writing roadmap".)

Again, I say that based on what MY DSs' abilities were at age 12. YMMV.

Also, as an aside, "describe the digestive system from a piece of food's perspective" would not have been a paper topic that would have flown with DSs. Neither was "into" creative writing (imaginative point of view in this topic), and both far preferred straightforward factual/informational topics if writing about science or history.

Another aside: rather than tests or writing papers for science, what about having DS give a short oral presentation on the digestive system? Or just informally share what he learned at the dinner table? Or make a poster or draw an illustration and label parts if he is more art-oriented? And, again, just us, but we didn't do tests in elementary/middle school -- I could see whether or not DSs had learned the material, and tests, like workbooks, really sucked away any interest or joy in learning...
 

5 hours ago, LauraClark said:

about how many papers are you having your child write a week/month/year? Do you have a separate writing curriculum or try to integrate in other subjects? 

-have you taught MLA standards by this age? I am really really dreading it for some reason-it seems like drudgery and I keep putting it off.

Thanks in advance!

When DSs were 12yo... yes, they had a separate writing curriculum. No it did not integrate into the other subjects. When writing about a specific school subject, we would set aside the writing program for a few days or a week and do the specific writing for the school subject.

However, my experience was with one DS who was a very average writer, but who disliked writing, and the other DS who had mild LDs with writing, so YMMV. 😉 

Because of DSs' dislike/disability with writing, I did not try for any particular amount of papers per week/month/year -- totally would not have worked here. My goal was working on writing of some kind (curricula or subject-specific writing or real life writing or other) for about 30 minutes a day 4-5 days a week.

We often loosely followed Andrew Pudewa's idea about breaking a piece of writing into bites and spend the week on it:
day 1 = brainstorm    <-- mom involved here
day 2 = organize (key word outline)    <-- mom involved here
day 3  = rough draft write from the key word outline     <-- DS mostly solo here
day 4 = revision   <-- mom involved here
day 5 = proof-editing, final version   <-- DS mostly solo here (with marks in the margin from mom to help look for items to fix)
 

5 hours ago, LauraClark said:

-have you taught MLA standards by this age? I am really really dreading it for some reason-it seems like drudgery and I keep putting it off...

We didn't do writing in format (MLA or APA) until along about 11th/12th grade -- but again, it was because I was already having to work uphill against attitude and LDs... 😉

I've been teach Lit. & Writing at my homeschool co-op now for almost 10 years. Mostly it is to high schoolers, but I've also done mixed level (gr. 8/9) class, and middle school level (gr. 7/8).

Yes, I taught MLA format. 

Yes it is drudgery for me -- oh wait, you probably mean for the student 😉 ... yes drudgery for them too. 😉

But I try to make it easier on all of us, and break it into bites. I also link them to tutorials for MLA format in Google Doc, Word, and Pages -- both a YouTube tutorial video to each of those word processors, AND link to a web article with  photos to see where to find commands on the screen.

For homeschooling my own children, I would teach MLA formatting in small bites, spread out, and I would probably hold off on citations until high school, unless I had strong writers. For co-op classroom teaching, I have to make them all jump the hurdle if I'm teaching that mixed age range of 8th/9th.

bite #1 = set up a template in MLA format
- margins = 1" on all sides
- type = 12-point Times / Times New Roman
- spacing = double space ("2x")
- alignment = left justified / ragged right
- 1/2" paragraph indents
- centered title
- upper left corner heading of student name / class name / assignment # / date

bite #2 = add to the template the upper right corner heading of last name page number
- learn how to access the header
- use right-justified command for the type
- make sure to set the type to also be 12-point Times / Times New Roman (the auto-default is often 11-point Ariel)
- make sure to use the "insert page number" command rather than typing a number
_____________

About halfway through Semester 2, for high school students, after having practiced the above for the writing assignments, to feel comfortable with the basic MLA format above, we then add the following. (I would have to gauge the specific students in my class to see if I felt 7th or 8th graders were ready for this):

bite #3 =
- discuss plagiarism and citing sources
- discuss when and how to use in-text (parenthetical) citations
- practice

bite #4 =
- discuss the separate Works Cited page
- discuss the connection between in-text citations and the full citations on the Works Cited page
- practice 

While I have never had the time with a class to do this, at some point in high school, once your student is very fluent with MLA, I highly recommend doing an assignment where you have them take a finished paper done in MLA format, and then go through the info at OWL at Purdue (or other source) and learn all the requirements for APA format, and then "translate" the paper into APA style.

The goal is to make formatting so familiar to them that when they hit college, they totally focus on writing their papers and not simultaneously trying to struggle through figuring out formatting. College Writing/English classes usually want MLA format. Social Sciences usually want APA format. That's why I suggest at least once doing the opposite format as what you will require at home.

BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 4 by Lori D.

[wendyroo]

My current 9th (rising 10th) grader is a good, but reluctant, writer. 

Quote

-if I assigned a paper for science instead of a test (something like, "describe the digestive system from a piece of food's perspective") would it be reasonable to expect the rough draft paper to be finished after 2 full days (I plan for an hour of science/day)? This is just the writing part-all the reading about the digestive system should already be completed. 

If I assigned that in 8th grade he would have revolted. Writing from a "food's perspective" would have been regarded as ridiculous, patronizing, mumbo jumbo.

If I asked for a straight forward, five paragraph essay about the digestive system, he could have easily cranked it out in two hours.

HOWEVER, he spent nowhere near an hour a day on science. So those two hours of work would have been spread out over 3-4 days.

Since my DS liked science, and decidedly didn't like writing, I avoided science writing assignments.

Quote

-about how many papers are you having your child write a week/month/year? Do you have a separate writing curriculum or try to integrate in other subjects? 

We use Lantern English for writing. DS did "Choosing and Using Sources" at the end of 7th grade. In 8th grade he did "The Research Paper" which produced a 2000 word paper on the atomic bomb over 8 weeks, "Creative Worldbuilding" which only required 3-5 paragraphs a week, and then The Expository Essay 1 & 2 over a semester during which he wrote (with a lot of scaffolding) 6 three page essays (on topics of his choice) with sources and parenthetical citations.

That was pretty much the extent of his writing. He chose to write on some scientific and historical topics, but I did not assign writing across the curriculum.

Quote

-have you taught MLA standards by this age? I am really really dreading it for some reason-it seems like drudgery and I keep putting it off.

 Not by 8th grade, but, yes, in 8th grade. Prior to 8th he was using sources and producing bibliographies in MLA format. But 8th was when he actually learned to attribute specific writing to particular sources, use quotations, and stringently avoid plagiarism. This was all done by Lantern slowly and steadily.

[Brittany1116]

Mine older one is going into 8th and will be writing in science (ornithology specifically). I plan for him to complete 7-8 papers throughout the year, roughly 3 pages each. I am still working out what types of papers.

Currently, he can write 400-600 words on a familiar subject in a day. Editing and polishing could take another 1-2 days. I usually plan for a paper to take a full (4 day) week, just in case.

We have gone over MLA format in IEW (last year I think?), but I don't stress it. It's something that can quickly and easily be learned in late high school, and eternally referenced online.

I do already stress the importance of original work and not plagiarizing because in my experience, a tween/teen boy who has not been explicitly told to use his own thoughts/words is likely to copy something somewhere. I have heard it from so many moms and seen it in my home. Everything was his until something sounded a little too perfect and bingo, I found the copied lines. 

[madteaparty]

10 hours ago, wendyroo said:

My current 9th (rising 10th) grader is a good, but reluctant, writer. 

If I assigned that in 8th grade he would have revolted. Writing from a "food's perspective" would have been regarded as ridiculous, patronizing, mumbo jumbo.

If I asked for a straight forward, five paragraph essay about the digestive system, he could have easily cranked it out in two hours.

HOWEVER, he spent nowhere near an hour a day on science. So those two hours of work would have been spread out over 3-4 days.

Since my DS liked science, and decidedly didn't like writing, I avoided science writing assignments.

We use Lantern English for writing. DS did "Choosing and Using Sources" at the end of 7th grade. In 8th grade he did "The Research Paper" which produced a 2000 word paper on the atomic bomb over 8 weeks, "Creative Worldbuilding" which only required 3-5 paragraphs a week, and then The Expository Essay 1 & 2 over a semester during which he wrote (with a lot of scaffolding) 6 three page essays (on topics of his choice) with sources and parenthetical citations.

That was pretty much the extent of his writing. He chose to write on some scientific and historical topics, but I did not assign writing across the curriculum.

 Not by 8th grade, but, yes, in 8th grade. Prior to 8th he was using sources and producing bibliographies in MLA format. But 8th was when he actually learned to attribute specific writing to particular sources, use quotations, and stringently avoid plagiarism. This was all done by Lantern slowly and steadily.

Hi,@wendyroo I  sent you a PM on Lantern, trying not to hijack this thread 🙂 

OP my dd doesn’t homeschool but open ended assignments don’t go over well. In English they do a chart with sources/support and then they start writing. They do make an attempt to introduce MLA in 7th grade but alas I don’t think we’ve mastered it yet 😉 Don’t ban me from the boards, but there are easy ways to spit out a citation online now. The judging of sources is more nuanced. 

Edited May 4 by madteaparty

[LauraClark]

11 hours ago, Lori D. said:

rather than tests or writing papers for science, what about having DS give a short oral presentation on the digestive system?

That's a great idea-thank you!

 

11 hours ago, Lori D. said:

And, again, just us, but we didn't do tests in elementary/middle school -- I could see whether or not DSs had learned the material, and tests, like workbooks, really sucked away any interest or joy in learning...

I get that-I've discovered I'm a really bad judge of what he knows and understands. It's hard for me to find the time to sit down with him after every reading to discuss-I need some kind of output to keep him accountable.

 

12 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Yes it is drudgery for me -- oh wait, you probably mean for the student 😉 ... yes drudgery for them too. 😉

Oh no, I was totally talking about myself 😂 There have been a couple things in homeschool teaching that I have just really really not enjoyed. I'm glad to hear I can justify putting it off for another year. Youtube tutorials are a great idea!

I plan to do a mini computers class with him this year so maybe I can tackle bite #1 and #2. Thank you, @Lori D.!

[LauraClark]

10 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Writing from a "food's perspective" would have been regarded as ridiculous, patronizing, mumbo jumbo.

Oh, I totally get that. But I also like him to have assignments that maybe he doesn't 100% love or isn't given control over the topic-he's for to learn to do those type of assignments well too.

Thanks @wendyroo-your input on amount of writing is helpful-I might be assigning too much.