Writing for 5th and 7th

[countrymum]

I will add more complicated info later but I have Writeshop E and well as Write with the best 1. Which would you-all pict for a writing adverse 7th grade boy and story telling 5th grade girl? We kind of have to combine due to time restraints. We're doing old Analytical Grammar and Writing skills 1 together now and it's going well.

Edited October 7, 2023 by countrymum

[SilverMoon]

My writing averse 7th grader is using Winning With Writing from Jackris. I break some lessons in half if they take extra writing. He's never going to be a fan but it does keep him moving in a generally forward direction. Lessons and expectations are super clear and it's really easy to use. Open and go. 

[Lori D.]

59 minutes ago, countrymum said:

I will add more complicated info later but I have Writeshop E and well as Write with the best 1. Which would you-all pict for a writing adverse 7th grade boy and story telling 5th grade girl? We kind of have to combine due to time restraints. We're doing old Analytical Grammar and Writing skills 1 together now and it's going well.

No experience with Writeshop or Write with the Best.

If you can do them separately, with mostly-do-it-solo programs, I'd say:
- 5th grade storytelling girl = Wordsmith Apprentice (gr. 4-6) -- fun cub reporter theme
- 7th grade writing-adverse boy = Winning with Writing (by grade level), or, Jump In (gr. 6-9) (skip the free-writing from prompts parts)

If you need to do them together, and the 5th grader is fairly strong in writing, I'd say: Cover Story (gr. 6-8).
It is video-lesson based, and assignments include a mix of more creative writing (for your 5th grader), and straight forward (for your 7th grader); specifically, the assignments include:
- Review
- Poetry: Poem inspired by news story, acrostic, cinquain, haiku, limerick, senryu, found poem, free verse, and ballad.
- Article
- Letter
- Short Story (2)
- Blog post
- Humor piece
- How-to article
- “How-everything-went-wrong” article
- Advice column (letter and response)
- Ad copy

[countrymum]

Thanks for the ideas. I'm storing them for next year at least 

I asked about those 2 curriculums because I have them and don't have more homeschooling budget right now. I also have Treasured conversations but none of us are fantasy fans so the creative writing in the end of the book probably would not appeal. The rest looks good though.

[countrymum]

Write with the best is honestly where I'm leaning at the moment;) The format is read a passage from a classic (Dickins, Melville, Defoe...), analyze the descriptive nouns adverbs....or the way dialogue is written extra then write your own and then edit and rewrite it. It is mostly paragraph lengths. I think my creative girl would benefit from the instruction and my son would appreciate the direction and non cutesy aspect of it.....still thinking though.

I was all set to do Writeshop E, but somehow it seems to directionless creative (modern??) maybe? I always seem to do well with mostly classical and Charlotte Masonish philosophies....

[Lori D.]

18 hours ago, countrymum said:

Write with the best is honestly where I'm leaning at the moment;) The format is read a passage from a classic (Dickins, Melville, Defoe...), analyze the descriptive nouns adverbs....or the way dialogue is written extra then write your own and then edit and rewrite it. It is mostly paragraph lengths. I think my creative girl would benefit from the instruction and my son would appreciate the direction and non cutesy aspect of it.....still thinking though.

I was all set to do Writeshop E, but somehow it seems to directionless creative (modern??) maybe? I always seem to do well with mostly classical and Charlotte Masonish philosophies....

 

18 hours ago, countrymum said:

... I asked about those 2 curriculums because I have them and don't have more homeschooling budget right now. I also have Treasured conversations but none of us are fantasy fans so the creative writing in the end of the book probably would not appeal. The rest looks good though.

re: Writeshop
Yes, from the times I've looked at Writeshop, it seems very scattered, with many moving parts, and as if it is designed more for classroom use than homeschool. But, that's just how it appears from the samples to me -- no personal experience. From the table of contents, it looks like Writeshop level e is heavy on creative writing assignments:
- writing a fable
- writing humor
- writing an adventure
- writing sci-fi
- writing mystery
- creating poetry
- writing a personal narrative
- writing a book report
- writing a nonfiction report

re: Write with the Best
I just went and read the Cathy Duffy review, and then looked at the table of contents and sample pages. JMO based on what I could see, and from what you mention about your 5th & 7th graders, for several reasons, it seems like this is not really a good fit.

1. WwtB looks like it may potentially be very time-intensive on your part -- possibly requiring a lot of you having to think/figure out how to fill in with explanations and teaching your children may need. (see next point)

2. WwtB vol. 1 lists it is for grades 3-12 -- eek! My experience with curricula that tries to cover such a wide range is that it is way too little depth of support and explanations needed by the younger grades, and way too lite and not challenging enough for the older grades.

3. Digging into and studying classic lit. is great, but for older ages/grades. Due to older vocabulary and very different sentence structure, reading and fully understanding the lit. selections may potentially be too advanced for a 5th grader or even a 7th grader, unless they are also strong readers who are already used to older classic lit. Also, for students at the late elementary/middle school grades, shorter, simpler, factual writing examples are much easier for seeing what needs to go into a paragraph to make a complete paragraph, in order to reproduce the needed structure in their own writing.

4. WwtB assignments heavily focus on creative types of writing -- which you mentioned would not appeal at the end of  using Treasured Conversations**
types of writing in WwtB vol. 1:
1. descriptive paragraph
2. dialogue
3. short story
4. fable
5. friendly letter
6. rhyming verse
7. ballad or narrative poem

** = NOTE: from the table of contents of Treasured Conversations, I don't see any fantasy or story writing assignments...?? 
lessons 1-8 = grammar & sentences
lessons 9-26 = paragraph construction (writing factual paragraphs from outlines)
lessons 27-32 = writing simple reports (note-taking and report writing)


Okay, I know that sounds like I'm totally slamming Write with the Best, and just to clarify -- that is NOT my goal. I'm sure WwtB is a fit for many students -- I am just laying out what I see as potential mis-matches with WwtB to what your goals and needs are, and where your DC are in their writing abilities and interests (or lack thereof, for the 7th grader 😉 ). 😄 

Since you mention you can't buy more programs, wanted to combine students as a solution to streamlining your limited time for teaching writing, and you like Charlotte Mason or classical style, I'd suggest skipping any writing programs this year and focus on just writing regularly:
- write across the curriculum
- do real-life writing
- practice lots of solid complete paragraphs of different types to strength your writing-adverse 7th grader's writing muscles
- nurture your 5th grader's enjoyment of creative writing with a mix of writing

The benefits are:
- no need to buy more curricula
- very low time expenditure for you, since you need to keep your time for teaching of writing streamlined
- Charlotte Mason in style -- writing that is integral with the rest of your learning, and encourages student exploration
- fits the interests/needs of your students

Example:

For both students:
- use excerpts of Treasured Conversations to teach paragraph construction, note-taking, and report writing, and then apply to your own choice of topics from your history, geography, science, etc.
- if it works, use excerpts from WwtB on writing descriptive paragraphs 

For your 5th grader:
- Journal Buddies -- free prompt ideas
- excerpts from your Writeshop level E
- lots of complete report paragraphs from "across your curriculum content"
- real-life writing -- thank you notes; write out favorite recipes; 

For your 7th grader
- lots of complete report paragraphs from "across your curriculum content"
- build up to multi-paragraph reports, with intro and conclusion paragraphs, and each major topic/point with it's own body paragraph
- try a process ("how to") paragraph or multi-paragraph paper -- great assignment for practicing using transitions, putting the steps of the process in a logic order, adding details to help make the process understandable, etc.
- try a beginning "opinion" paragraph (persuasive writing)
- try a beginning comparison (compare/contrast) paragraph
- adapt one of the longer multi-paragraph reports into an oral presentation, given to the family -- consider learning how to put together a powerpoint or slideshow to accompany the report
- real-life writing -- thank you notes; write out favorite recipes
- blog entries -- short weekly article on a topic of his interest, or about a hobby or activity
- news article -- or write/layout/print a family newsletter with his 5th grade sister


Wishing you all the BEST in finding what is the best fit for writing for you all. Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

PS -- you mentioned using Analytical Grammar with your DC... Does that give you free access to AG's Beyond the Book Report? That might be a good fit for your 7th grader right now. Just a thought!

Season 1 focus might fit:
- basic report
- pamphlet report
- journalism report

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Lori D.

[countrymum]

Thanks so much Lori. I think I do have beyond the book report. I'll look at that.

Also it's not like my son doesn't like to write stories. I just know the promps and examples and paragraphs to finish in treasured conversations would not appeal to him. These are in the paragraph section. We don't really read much fantasy here and that is what many of the examples are.... perhaps I could come up with new ones....

We read some older literature here. We just finished Laddie by Gene Stratton Porter which those two kids really liked. We've also recently enjoyed Carry on Mr Bowditch and some Patricia St John. Currently we're reading Mrs Piggy Wiggle just to switch it up;) DS is currently reading The Man Who Never Was (true WW2 story), 3 Stuffed Owls by Keith Robertson (silly kids mystery from the 50s) and the 4 Story Mistake. 

[Lori D.]

15 hours ago, countrymum said:

... We read some older literature here. We just finished Laddie by Gene Stratton Porter which those two kids really liked. We've also recently enjoyed Carry on Mr Bowditch and some Patricia St John. Currently we're reading Mrs Piggy Wiggle just to switch it up;) DS is currently reading The Man Who Never Was (true WW2 story), 3 Stuffed Owls by Keith Robertson (silly kids mystery from the 50s) and the 4 Story Mistake. 

Just to clarify -- when I said "older classics," I meant classics written in the 1800s, with Victorian-type language and sentence structure -- as in works by authors such as Charles Dickens, Robert Lewis Stevenson, Jules Verne, Nathaniel Hawthorne, et.al. 😉 (Authors used in Write With the Best.)

Theses authors are a significant jump up in complexity for solo reads, and usually are introduced as read-alouds anywhere between grade 6-8 -- although, obviously, many children are strong listeners, and are fine with these authors at earlier ages. 😄 

It can be problematic to use old style of writing -- older vocabulary, much more complex sentence structure -- to try and teach writing at the late elementary/middle school age, when students usually see what sentence structure and paragraph structure needs to look like with much less complex / much more straightforward and contemporary writing. That's just been my experience with teaching writing to my own DSs, and in teaching lit. & writing at my homeschool co-op.
 

15 hours ago, countrymum said:

... I think I do have beyond the book report. I'll look at that.

Also it's not like my son doesn't like to write stories. I just know the promps and examples and paragraphs to finish in treasured conversations would not appeal to him. These are in the paragraph section. We don't really read much fantasy here and that is what many of the examples are.... perhaps I could come up with new ones....

Yes, Treasured Conversations is meant for grades 3-5, and I know many of the earlier selections in TC are gentle tales of talking animals, which really are geared for younger ages. I was just suggesting using the teaching/explanation portions of paragraph structure, how to research, how to outline, etc. 😉  -- and skip the talking animal examples, if those are not useful. Indeed, TC would be way below your 7th grader (hence, just using any informational excerpts that help) -- TC may be beyond your 5th grader as well, if she is generating a lot of writing on her own. It was just a thought, not knowing where exactly your DC are in their writing. 😄 
 

Just from the samples and tables of contents that I can see, neither Writeshop nor the Write With the Best appear to have the in-depth instruction that would be helpful for YOU in teaching the next stage of writing, nor the kinds of writing assignments that normally help with that introduction into the "higher thinking level" of writing.

Is your 7th grader your oldest? Is so, you may not realize that along about grade 7-9 (whenever the individual student is ready -- and that varies from student to student), is when you start moving away from writing assignments such as narration, book reports, and creative writing prompts, etc. -- and start moving into writing that that requires more analytic thought -- beginning essays and formal writing / academic writing. That is because somewhere along about age 12-14 is when those logic, analysis, and abstract thinking portions of the brain start to develop. And those are the types of "brain thinking" that are needed for these more complex types of writing --  things like generating a thesis (an opinion, claim, contention, idea)about a topic -- and then building a logical argument of support for the thesis through reasons/points and specific evidence (examples, facts, data, anecdotes, etc.). 

All that to say, much as time-wise and finance-wise it would help you to keep the 5th and 7th graders together -- your 7th grader may be ready to step up onto the beginning rung of that higher level of writing, meaning the need to split them out to work on writing separately. And you may need to squeeze your budget to purchase something that has much more explicit instruction (if that is something you will need) and can be somewhat more independent-working so that your time won't be squeezed as well as your budget.

I do think these 2 ideas below would give you the most bang for your buck. And maybe try going "DIY" for a semester with some of the ideas suggested in my previous post, and then next semester when you have the $$ for it, try a writing program more geared for your current situation:

Jump In
$44 for student + teacher book, but honestly, you could skip the TB and go with just the $37 student book. It is a full year of material, and you would be able to reuse with future students. It is informal in tone, written to the student, and can be done largely independently by the student, with regular brief check-ins with you.

Winning With Writing
$30 for both semesters of the student book + teacher book. It is a full year of material, and you can reuse for future children. It, too, can be done largely independently by the student, with brief check-ins with you. The level 7 program covers:

semester 1 = main topic; writing process; sequence; personal narrative; comparison; figures of speech; descriptive writing; creative writing (parts, quotations, dialogue, point of view, voice)

semester 2 = facts & opinions; thesis; transitions; compare/contrast essay; persuasive writing; business letters; documenting sources; autobiographical essay; cause & effect essay; note-taking/research; informative research report


I realize I am sounding bossy and pushy -- and I really don't mean to. 😉 Having had 2 writing-phobic DSs to try and teach writing to, I really empathize (over empathize?! LOL) with other homeschoolers when they hit that middle school stage and are trying to figure out what needs to happen. So please feel free to disregard if I have overstepped. 😉 

Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lori D.

[countrymum]

You're not too pushy Lori. 

I looked at Jump In again. When I looked at it last summer with DS he didn't appreciate the informal tone and I really like more imitation type writing. That is still how it looks to me....

Maybe Writing with Skill would fit better? Or IEW.....I don't like the style instruction in IEW at all though and we have trouble with video based instruction.....(though daughter is doing Spanish for children on her own with videos and it's going well).

I do Grammer with the he 2 of them for 15-45 min 4-5 times a week, so I figured I had time to actually do writing with them too if we do it together. 

Yes DS 12 is oldest. He has 5 little siblings. I want him to learn to outline and take notes from reading and then write a paragraph from notes. Also I don't like too much formula for writing....like not each paragraph has an obvious topic sentence to begin it.....not too say that each paragraph isn't 1 topic though ...

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, countrymum said:

...I looked at Jump In again. When I looked at it last summer with DS he didn't appreciate the informal tone and I really like more imitation type writing. That is still how it looks to me....

Maybe Writing with Skill would fit better? Or IEW.....I don't like the style instruction in IEW at all though and we have trouble with video based instruction.....(though daughter is doing Spanish for children on her own with videos and it's going well).

I do Grammer with the he 2 of them for 15-45 min 4-5 times a week, so I figured I had time to actually do writing with them too if we do it together. 

Yes DS 12 is oldest. He has 5 little siblings. I want him to learn to outline and take notes from reading and then write a paragraph from notes. Also I don't like too much formula for writing....like not each paragraph has an obvious topic sentence to begin it.....not too say that each paragraph isn't 1 topic though ...

Then, if he prefers more formal tone, and you (and maybe he as well) prefer classical style, Writing With Skill would be the way to go. Very detailed instruction, and beginning analysis folded in. Initially it will likely take more of your time to help him get into the routine of the program, but as he goes along, if it is clicking for him, he will be able to manage more of it solo. 

I believe he would get the outlining and note taking with WWS.

One idea might be to reduce the amount of times you do grammar per week -- just 2-3x -- and use that extra 2 days to have more time for the writing if you go with WWS.

re: topic sentences
One thing I will note -- when you do the more formal academic writing, you do need a transition + topic sentence to introduce each new body paragraph, because each body paragraph is either a point/reason in your argument of support for the thesis, or additional, extended example for a previous point. Topic sentences are key for maintaining clarity and for guiding your reader through your argument. Yes, there are ways of creatively expressing the "point of the paragraph" so that it does not sound repetitive, but with a multi-page paper that has multiple points to cover, parallel structure (starting paragraphs with a topic sentence) really are vital for avoiding confusion. (IMO) Other types of writing do not all have a similar need for such repetitiveness for clarity, logic, and flow. Again, JMO. 😉

Wishing you all the BEST in your writing adventures! 😄 Warmly, Lori D.

[Green Bean]

I just wanted to add WWS has a generous sample you could try out first.

[countrymum]

Thanks green bean. I was just looking at this. I found that sample earlier today before I'd just seen Rainbow resources shorter one. 

I also remembered I have School Composition by Maxwell a vintage book 8filltheheart mentioned.....

If we do WWS I will not try to necessarily finish in a year. I am big on teaching the students in front of me and building a solid foundation. I want to educate kids who can continue to learn on their own. 

[caffeineandbooks]

If you do go with WWS, note that each "day's" work is not an equal amount.  The first 2/3 of the book has a narrative summary, an outline, and a "practising the topos" section (all shorter days) and a composition (longer day) each week.  You might consider having him do two of the "easy" days in one and then have an extra day that he can spend on the composition if needed.

[Nm.]

I’d stick the oldest back in rod and staff and call it a day 😂   Probably because all these ideas make my head spin and I don’t even have a newborn.  The brain fog post partum was really tough for me for about 2+ years, also complicated by Covid.  Do whatever can get done.
 I vote for Write with the best- I don’t think it is meant to take too long.  It is meant for 5th+ since heart of dakota uses it in creation to Christ.  Writing strands?  Something open and go.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Nm.

[Green Bean]

(Nm., I was laughing at your first 2 sentences, not at the rest.)

 

[KeriJ]

We are using Write With the Best this year.  It's going well for my 8th grader!

[countrymum]

Thanks all. Writing skills is really basic but a good addition now to analytical Grammer. It's getting them writing more at least. Once AG is done I think we'll do select lessons out of write with the best then perhaps start Writing with Skill 1.