Is it Dysgraphia?

[knitgrl]

Ds9 struggles to write. His handwriting is comparable to a Kindergartener's. It hasn't really gotten better over the years. Because he resists it, and it is such a physical struggle, I don't insist he spend a lot of time writing. He does about one sentence of copywork per day. He has a spelling workbook where he writes about 12 words per day. We do R&S English, and I have him copy about 2-3 sentences per lesson. I scribe most of his math onto paper, but he does calculations on the white board more or less on his own. No number reversals or letter reversals. His cursive is more legible than his printing. He often incorporates capital letters when he prints, especially the letters G and D. When he is engaged, he narrates just fine.

I was doing my yearly review of the WTM, and was reading her advice about how if you think there might be problems, find help. Does this issue warrant that sort of assistance? I'm somewhat resistant because I'm afraid he will also be labelled ADD because he's active. I have had significant medical issues over the past year, and just really did not have the bandwidth to address this. If it's not something requiring specialized support, I know @HomeAgain had a list of activities that sound like they would be helpful on a recent K-8 thread about lefties.

 

[lewelma]

My younger ds has dysgraphia. We waited for a diagnosis until he was 12, because I suspected it already and only got him assessed to get testing accommodations. For us, since my ds was not in school, there was no 'assistance' that we needed. Rather, we just had to do the hard work.  3 hours per day of working side-by-side for 6 years starting at the age of 12. For us, there was no magic bullet. Hard work was the answer. I'm happy to answer questions about what we had to do if that would be helpful.

To anwer your question: I think you know there is a problem, so there is. Testing can confirm this, but it is clear to you there is a problem and you are the primarly educator and parent, so trust your gut. 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by lewelma

[Tanager]

I suspect my daughter, her half sister their dad, and his dad all have dysgraphia. I call it “mild dysgraphia” as I’ve seen way worse writing researching it. At first I didn’t understand and she would complain of her hand hurting when she wrote and she’d snap pencil tips from pressing so hard.

Because I didn’t understand it, we did a lot of writing and worked on her penmanship early on. It was hard, but she went along with it, but she hated it. She did learn to write neat, but not for long and it really tires her out. Once I figured out there was a thing called dysgraphia we switched things up and I let her decided when to write neat (letters to grandma...) Cursive helps her keep her letters together. Pen is easier to write with then pencil. I still correct her pencil grip occasionally. She always prefers to type. She knows there’s speech to text software, but hasn’t tried it yet. I also plan to have her do a course in shorthand for note taking as she struggles to take notes quickly, but she remembers information she’s interested in really well so it hasn’t been a problem. 

It sounds like you could get accommodations for it, but I don’t know much about that. I would suggest a typing program so he could type instead or using the speech to text software. I’ve also come across therapy where the kids make letters with clay/playdoh (rolled into long rods) and form the letters to sit properly on the baseline, midline and top line. We haven’t tried it as she can write well enough.

Another thought is the connection it has with dyslexia. My daughter, her half sister and their dad (not sure about his dad) all have trouble getting their thoughts down on paper, but they all read well. (My daughter did need extra instruction with phonics - she asked to repeat lessons many times) There’s just a disconnect with words to paper, which is fascinating as they are all really good oral storytellers. My daughter does type her stories, but struggles with the disconnect so she writes them in her head and acts them out and then writes them... Now she is 12 and with practice the disconnect has lessened and it’s easier for her to write. She required step by step instruction to put things in order and it’s not perfect still. I do feel like her writing should be much better than it is, but as long as there is progress being made we’re happy. 

[knitgrl]

12 hours ago, lewelma said:

My younger ds has dysgraphia. We waited for a diagnosis until he was 12, because I suspected it already and only got him assessed to get testing accommodations. For us, since my ds was not in school, there was no 'assistance' that we needed. Rather, we just had to do the hard work.  3 hours per day of working side-by-side for 6 years starting at the age of 12. For us, there was no magic bullet. Hard work was the answer. I'm happy to answer questions about what we had to do if that would be helpful.

To anwer your question: I think you know there is a problem, so there is. Testing can confirm this, but it is clear to you there is a problem and you are the primarily educator and parent, so trust your gut. 

 

In my mind, there is a different reason for each of my children to be homeschooled. For ds, it is so that he can feel academically competent; I think sending him to ps would have the opposite effect. He is not a fan of book work, but his tolerance for it has considerably improved this past year. So, I think we can start working on his writing more without having to deal with attitude as well.

I'm still wrapping my head around this (potential) diagnosis. It sounds like the main benefit would be for securing testing accommodations later on. Could you elaborate on the benefits of working on it so intensely? I've heard people say that handwriting doesn't really matter in this day and age, and that most people type what they need to. All you need cursive for is a signature - a belief I do not share, as all my children have learned cursive. Ds23, who went to ps from K-12, has handwriting that looks like that of a 4th grader, so it's not as though the public schools have much in the line of handwriting standards, so how much worse would ds9 look compared to others in his peer group, iykwim?

I don't have time right now, but later on today I can post a sample.

ETA: Part of my post here has to do with convincing dh about next steps. I can envision him bringing up some of these points.

Edited May 7, 2023 by knitgrl

[Heartstrings]

Since Chat GBT has come online a lot of college professors have talked about moving back to having kids do exams in class by hand in class again. Getting an accommodation for extra time on exams, or to be allowed to type instead, would be beneficial.  

[SilverMoon]

Dysgraphia may be something to watch for. He's ahead of where my dysgraphic kid was at 9, but obviously everyone is unique. 🙂

Mine struggled so much with cursive that we dropped it. It did not help his penmanship or reversals and just gave him even more details to try remembering.

Beyond pencil to paper writing, other things to look at are poor spelling skills, mixing up words when writing/narrating, spacing while writing, fine motor skills like tying shoes, avoiding drawing/coloring or art in general, cutting shapes smoothly with scissors, gently handling very small objects, etc. 

 

My dysgraphic 12yo's current daily writing looks like one page in Megawords spelling workbook, math answers in a workbook (problems worked out as needed in a notebook that does not have neatness requirements), and either a grammar lesson *or* a writing lesson. We don't work on grammar and writing on the same days, and if a lesson is writing heavy I break them into him size daily bites. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by SilverMoon

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, knitgrl said:

 It sounds like the main benefit would be for securing testing accommodations later on. Could you elaborate on the benefits of working on it so intensely?

Sure. By age 10, I was pretty sure there was something wrong. DS had beautiful handwriting but it was unbelievably slow, and he could not seem to spell anything, and had no idea where to put a period. He could write and edit and make good pieces of writing, but I seemed to be way too involved. So from age 10-12, we worked intensively on increasing his handwriting speed -- fun speed drills, challenges, timers, etc. NOTHING worked and it only created stress. We also worked intensively on spelling -- a solid 30 minutes per day (and had since he was 8), and we tried 8 different programs, once again, NOTHING worked.  We worked on grammar, because he could not understand where a period went. But through all this, he had just beautiful style to his writing, adult level style. So I just struggled with thinking he had dysgraphia. 

At the age of 12, having worked diligently for all of primary school, I finally came to understand the challenge I was facing. The reason his handwriting was beautiful but slow was because he was drawing all the letters, and he could not remember how for form them, so to write an 'h', he would coach himself with his internal voice "start at the top and one hump". This was for every letter.  

For spelling, he could spell words by sounding them out because he knew the rules and had good phonemic skills, but nothing was automated. He had to sound out even basic words like 'cat' to write it. He could not remember how to spell any irregular words including 50 of the top 100 words.

For punctuation, even though we had done years of grammar, he could not identify parts of speech, or tell you what was the subject, or where a period went, or how a sentence was structured at all.

For paragraphs/essays, he could not write an introductory sentence, and could not structure a full essay by himself at all. Even after years of narration, and IEW and WWS work.  

Basically, he could read but was illiterate in writing. And this was after an academic education with a diligent parent for 6 years.

In addition, there was a huge problem with math. He could not encode ideas into symbols, which of course is what math is.  He tested off the charts (quite literally) on mathmatical understanding, but he could not ENCODE. He was very very 2e here. I won't go into our math troubles unless you are also struggling.

So starting at 12, we got him tested. He scored 99 percentile IQ, and 5th percentile for all the above skills.  This qualified him for testing accommodations, which he still uses today in university.

Then we developed a plan. 

1) we would abandon handwriting with the exception of math.

2) we started 'typing dictation' for 30 minutes per day to remediate his spelling and punctuation in the context of writing.  We started with Cat in the Hat. The goal was automation of some sort. Over the following 5 years, we moved up the books to Frog and Toad, and then Narnia, and then harder books that gave him joy. He absolutely loved this time as much as I hated it. But it worked.

3) We wrote together for 2.5 hours per day. We folded all literacy education into this time. We researched, we outlined, we discussed paragraph style, we wrote, we edited. We trialled mindmaps, coloured pens, outlining text, cutting up others work and moving sentences around. Basically, we tried every single thing I could think of to help his mind understand language.  The key is that we did ALL of this together, and without a program or worksheet.  I adapted to where he was at on the day, and we would move forward.

Now, at age of 19, he is successful.  He can type an essay test under time pressure and get an A. He has amazing proofreading skills, outlining skills, and writing skills. He still needs me to work with him as a writing tutor on large research papers that are required for some classes in unviersity. He gets 10 extra minutes for every hour in tests. He does not physically write, and he got someone else to filling in bubbles on his scantron chemistry exam last week. But besides that, he has achieved what he set out to achieve. It was an enormous effort, superhuman in some regards. But we did it, and I am very proud of him.

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by lewelma

[knitgrl]

14 hours ago, Tanager said:

I suspect my daughter, her half sister their dad, and his dad all have dysgraphia. I call it “mild dysgraphia” as I’ve seen way worse writing researching it. At first I didn’t understand and she would complain of her hand hurting when she wrote and she’d snap pencil tips from pressing so hard.

Another thought is the connection it has with dyslexia. My daughter, her half sister and their dad (not sure about his dad) all have trouble getting their thoughts down on paper, but they all read well. (My daughter did need extra instruction with phonics - she asked to repeat lessons many times) There’s just a disconnect with words to paper, which is fascinating as they are all really good oral storytellers. My daughter does type her stories, but struggles with the disconnect so she writes them in her head and acts them out and then writes them... Now she is 12 and with practice the disconnect has lessened and it’s easier for her to write. She required step by step instruction to put things in order and it’s not perfect still. I do feel like her writing should be much better than it is, but as long as there is progress being made we’re happy. 

Just commenting on other indicators others have mentioned.

He does press down hard on paper, but so do I. Not enough to break pencil points, though. He reads well enough. I think we will pick up Wise Owl Polysyllables again this year, as he could use some help here, but I'm guessing he's at about the same level of the average public school kid his age, or slightly better. As for when he learned to read, that did take him a long time. We did "The cat sat on the mat," for six months. Once he got over that hump, he made the sort of progress in reading that I would have expected.

2 hours ago, SilverMoon said:

Beyond pencil to paper writing, other things to look at are poor spelling skills, mixing up words when writing/narrating, spacing while writing, fine motor skills like tying shoes, avoiding drawing/coloring or art in general, cutting shapes smoothly with scissors, gently handling very small objects, etc.

His spelling skills are decent. We are doing Spelling Workout C. On average, he only misses 1 spelling word on the weekly quiz. I haven't noticed him mixing up words when writing or narrating. His spacing between words is ok, not great, but has gotten better over time. He can tie his shoes, but still is a challenge sometimes. TBH, dh has taught them what he believes is a superior method, which requires more shoe lace than what many kid's shoes come with. He avoids art like the plague -- however, he generally produces one Godzilla drawing per day. I haven't seen his cutting skills recently, as we haven't done much of that this year.

 

 

[Tanager]

It’s amazing how much variety there is with how brains work. @Lewelma has been on quite a journey. Bravo! We also used IEW(just a little to get the basics done and then went on our own), then WWS.

My daughter did okay in spelling, but no spelling program has ever worked with her. She just slowly increased her spelling naturally. She’s not a great speller though. She also runs through her math facts about once a year to make them automatic again as she says she loses some of them.

Looking at the handwriting - to me I’d say yes from what I’ve read about dysgraphia. To help - the first thing that jumps out to me is the lines on the page don’t really leave room for a correct baseline, midline and top line. Personally I would use paper with the dotted lines in the middle for the baseline and number it 1 to 20 and have my daughter write on that instead. Alternatively I would pull the book apart if it doesn’t lie fat and hole punch it to put in a binder. Then I’d pull out the pages to be written on and would’ve drawn in a baseline, midline and topline. After they finish the page I would have them correct any letters that are uppercase and any letters that don’t hang below the line properly, making sure all letters are being formed properly. Then I would point out all the letters that don’t sit on the lines correctly. Overtime I would expect them to get more of their letters correct. BUT, what was right for us may not be right for you. And I wouldn’t push further then what was comfortable for them as I feel bad about not understand why my daughters hand hurt and thought she was just trying to get out of it.

I asked their dad about his handwriting. I write most things for him. We do work together and I am constantly asking him what his notes say (he sometimes can’t read them.) The most it has effected him is how he felt about himself growing up and constantly being called lazy. He does feel like having that not being understood held him back in life. 

I’ve heard art and dysgraphia aren’t linked. My daughter didn’t draw at first like i expected her to and because of her handwriting I figured she couldn’t draw. I started giving her more drawing opportunities and found that she really could draw well, though shading still is something she rushes. I’d encourage the Godzilla drawing so that the pencil was seen as positive. I’d also introduce a gel pen and see if that was easier to write with.

[SilverMoon]

That writing sample would be a good day for my 12yo. 🙂 He will not draw, color, etc at all, and will go to great lengths to avoid it entirely. In dance he has to work much harder at hands. 

[bookbard]

I think the handwriting and drawing are fine. I am not hugely fussed as long as it's readable. I do expect my kids to type, they spend time every day writing up their own stories in google docs - it's been great for spelling and grammar too, I think. 

[Ausmumof3]

I have tutor students older whose handwriting is a lot worse. My oldest kids handwriting would have been worse (although I suspect dysgraphia for him as well, when I think how much effort it took to get him where he is and that at 16 he still uses random capitalisations sometimes. He also takes far longer than he should to work through assignments etc)

Edited May 10, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[knitgrl]

@lewelma, thank you for sharing your journey. Ds is ok with math. Writing it on paper tires him out, but he doesn't get as tired using a white board. It seems to make sense to get him tested. That will be interesting, as the institution closest to us insists on a referral from a doctor and testing from the school. Hoop-ity-hoop-hoop.

[knitgrl]

On 5/7/2023 at 5:07 PM, Tanager said:

It’s amazing how much variety there is with how brains work. @Lewelma has been on quite a journey. Bravo! We also used IEW(just a little to get the basics done and then went on our own), then WWS.

My daughter did okay in spelling, but no spelling program has ever worked with her. She just slowly increased her spelling naturally. She’s not a great speller though. She also runs through her math facts about once a year to make them automatic again as she says she loses some of them.

Looking at the handwriting - to me I’d say yes from what I’ve read about dysgraphia. To help - the first thing that jumps out to me is the lines on the page don’t really leave room for a correct baseline, midline and top line. Personally I would use paper with the dotted lines in the middle for the baseline and number it 1 to 20 and have my daughter write on that instead. Alternatively I would pull the book apart if it doesn’t lie fat and hole punch it to put in a binder. Then I’d pull out the pages to be written on and would’ve drawn in a baseline, midline and topline. After they finish the page I would have them correct any letters that are uppercase and any letters that don’t hang below the line properly, making sure all letters are being formed properly. Then I would point out all the letters that don’t sit on the lines correctly. Overtime I would expect them to get more of their letters correct. BUT, what was right for us may not be right for you. And I wouldn’t push further then what was comfortable for them as I feel bad about not understand why my daughters hand hurt and thought she was just trying to get out of it.

I asked their dad about his handwriting. I write most things for him. We do work together and I am constantly asking him what his notes say (he sometimes can’t read them.) The most it has effected him is how he felt about himself growing up and constantly being called lazy. He does feel like having that not being understood held him back in life. 

I’ve heard art and dysgraphia aren’t linked. My daughter didn’t draw at first like i expected her to and because of her handwriting I figured she couldn’t draw. I started giving her more drawing opportunities and found that she really could draw well, though shading still is something she rushes. I’d encourage the Godzilla drawing so that the pencil was seen as positive. I’d also introduce a gel pen and see if that was easier to write with.

Oh, wow. Thank you!!! There is a lot of good stuff here I've already started using. Right now, I am just focusing on having him correct any words that he uses capital letters in, and have him write them out on primary paper, with an emphasis on making sure letters hit the proper lines. Sometimes it is hard to know where to start, but you've given me so many concrete suggestions, ds and I can move forward.