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[leahnc725]

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THANK YOU

Edited November 2, 2022 by leahnc725
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[PeterPan]

I'm sorry this has been hard and that he has become discouraged. It seems like a wise plan to get some fresh evals and see what is going on. I will ask though, did you mean unschooling or de-schooling? Unschooling isn't what you'd generally recommend for someone with challenging behaviors and ADHD, because they're not likely to organize themselves well to make things happen even when they want to, leading to worse spirals. Instead you're looking for clear structure, approaches that reduce anxiety, and emotional regulation training so he can learn to regulate himself better and so you can work with him better. 

When you say you work full time, who is available to be with him and supervise him? And how old is he currently? 

Right now psych evals are exceptionally hard to get scheduled and often at least 6-9 months out. The major thing you could add with the right psych eval would be some exploration of whether there is an ASD explaining the challenging behaviors and/or anxiety, SLDs, etc. Have you ever wondered if ASD should be on the table? Ideally the eval for that would involve an ADOS, which is an in-person evaluation done by an evaluator the first time they meet the dc. Otherwise they're left with paper questionares like the GARS, ADI-R, etc., which can be challenging to fill out for us as parents and challenging to get others who have enough time with our kids to fill out. So if you can get on the wait list for a psych who specializes in ASD who does the ADOS, it might be the most direct way of getting the most thorough exploration of the question. 

In the meantime, here are some things that would actually HELP.

1) Get an SLP eval with an SLP who specializes in autism, expressive language, etc. Language issues usually underly behavior, because behavior is communication. They can test things like pragmatics, narrative language, metalinguistics, and syntax. Do not accept screener testing like the CELF but instead look for detailed testing, which will take multiple hours. Hopefully you can get your insurance to cover this. You will learn more that is PRACTICAL from detailed SLP testing than you will from psych testing at this point. 

2) Consider an APD eval with an audiologist. Sometimes SLPs will also do APD testing, so that's another way to get it. APD issues can be subtle and reflect language processing problems that cause behavior challenges. It's something to make sure is not part of the problem, if that makes sense. 

3) Get an OT eval. This is super high priority. You're wanting to check for sensory issues, retained reflexes, and then to start working on Interoception (self awareness) and self regulation. What you're calling behavior problems is going to respond to self awareness and self regulation strategies. He may also need some chemistry help at some point, but even that (meds, whatever) is NOT a substitute for this help. The school SHOULD have been doing this and SHAME on them for retaining him instead of giving him the proper intervention. https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  Here's an article to get you started. As a parent, I've gone to trainings for Interoception, Zones of Regulation (good this as well), Social Thinking, anything I can find, because everything I learn helps ME work with him better. 

As far as getting him easier to work with for school work, sigh, it's going to be a combo of him being able to self-regulate and self-advocate for what he needs and YOU learning what it's going to take with structure and methods to help him be calm, approachable, and ready to work. I can tell you that for my ds the ASD piece is always there, and it causes this sort of turtling, the withdrawal that IS the autism. So when you're saying you can't work with him, to me you're describing autism. It's literally the aut of autism, withdrawing into themselves, putting up these barriers.

For my ds, the things that help that are:

-pairing

-pairing

-pairing

It doesn't matter who works with him, they have to pair and they have to reduce stress to drop that fright/flight so he can actually respond.

-short sessions

-decrease verbal (look how low those scores are, go visual, hand him one worksheet at a time)

-alternating his thing and my thing

-doing things that pair=build relationships and trust and communication, like going camping or playing games

-doing HIS thing before your thing

-joining where HE is instead of trying to have him come in your world. So just go join whatever he's doing. You don't have to haul him off to a new space, just join him there. 

-making your workspace PREFERRED BY HIM by pairing it with good things he likes to do 

4) Consider meds, supplements, something for the chemistry of anxiety. That's a whole longer discussion and rabbit trail, but sometimes chemistry is a necessary piece. 

I'm sorry it's hard. You're doing the right thing asking for help, so just start taking steps and see what you can make happen. The right psych eval could open doors, but you need some practical help in the meantime. Your ped can refer you to a behavioral clinic where they can help. They can sometimes help you jump the line on getting psych evals. 

[Lecka]

Have you tried medication and he was taking medication when he did this testing?

 

Because there are kids out there that it does help and they do test higher.

 

It doesn’t always work out that way and some have side effects and things, but it’s not mentioned and I think it’s worth checking if it hasn’t been checked already.

If you haven’t tried medication, also, there are times when kids are falling behind academically because they can’t focus, and so their learning and retention is effected, because they can’t focus to learn.

 

And there are times medication helps focus and then kids make academic gains after being stalled.

 

That is all a “best case scenario” type of thing.  

When he was at school, did they also say he had to have someone next to him to do anything?  Did he do any independent work at school?  Is he somebody who might not be doing the work in the sense of producing written work, but orally is showing they are engaged and learning, or is it more they don’t seem to be picking anything up?

Do you have an idea of what “something else going on” might be?

 

Did he have specific complaints about going to the resource room?  It comes across like his complaint was for social reasons.  Was there more than that?  
 

What are things that go well for him, or work better for him?  
 

Something about his percentiles for the academic skills….  They are based off his age.  If he has stalled, his percentages will continue to fall (to some extent).  If he makes progress, his percentiles can shoot up.  
 

Do you think it’s accurate, like his reading fluency and reading comprehension?  
 

Do you think he had quality intervention, or do you think he didn’t really have someone working with him?  Did he stay stuff about that or did you hear what was going on in the resource room?

 

Did his IEP address reading or math goals?  
 

There can be a difference between:  “homework help” “let’s get through today’s work” “I’m going to tell you the answers and you write them down” type stuff……

 

And intervention that’s targeted to specific skill levels.  
 

If he needs someone to teach him 1:1 to focus and get anything done, is that the situation?  Or is it more that it’s needed for him to be re-directed to focus?  Or does he need a ton of help?

 

I think a lot of things could be going on, I think it would be good if you could get more testing.  
 

You might know more information, too, if you think about things the resource teachers said or look back at his IEP.  

 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm sorry this has been hard and that he has become discouraged. It seems like a wise plan to get some fresh evals and see what is going on. I will ask though, did you mean unschooling or de-schooling? Unschooling isn't what you'd generally recommend for someone with challenging behaviors and ADHD, because they're not likely to organize themselves well to make things happen even when they want to, leading to worse spirals. Instead you're looking for clear structure, approaches that reduce anxiety, and emotional regulation training so he can learn to regulate himself better and so you can work with him better. 

When you say you work full time, who is available to be with him and supervise him?

I agree. I would add that if he's not had vision screenings, that's important!!! 

I think fresh evaluations would be wise at this point. Getting someone to test him who is literate about autism means you will get someone who has some niche abilities, and they will likely be more thorough even if he doesn't have autism. 

54 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Have you tried medication and he was taking medication when he did this testing?

 

Because there are kids out there that it does help and they do test higher.

 

It doesn’t always work out that way and some have side effects and things, but it’s not mentioned and I think it’s worth checking if it hasn’t been checked already.

If you haven’t tried medication, also, there are times when kids are falling behind academically because they can’t focus, and so their learning and retention is effected, because they can’t focus to learn.

 

And there are times medication helps focus and then kids make academic gains after being stalled.

 

That is all a “best case scenario” type of thing.  

I agree.

55 minutes ago, Lecka said:

There can be a difference between:  “homework help” “let’s get through today’s work” “I’m going to tell you the answers and you write them down” type stuff……

 

And intervention that’s targeted to specific skill levels.  
 

If he needs someone to teach him 1:1 to focus and get anything done, is that the situation?  Or is it more that it’s needed for him to be re-directed to focus?  Or does he need a ton of help?

 

I think a lot of things could be going on, I think it would be good if you could get more testing.  
 

You might know more information, too, if you think about things the resource teachers said or look back at his IEP.  

It sounds to me like he needs targeted intervention and is either not getting it, or it's not at the appropriate level for him.

His IQ scores suggest that he will be able to access some parts of the mainstream curriculum if he's not behind and he has good intervention. They are low normal; if this is a reflection of his true abilities, then he will need lots of repetition, a lower reading level for his materials, and thorough, patient, explicit teaching for all subjects.  

If he is not making academic progress at his school and has stalled out, I would expect his Woodcock-Johnson scores to fall as well, as sorry as I am to say so. I just wanted to warn you about that possibility if you seek updated evaluations. If his first set of IQ scores adequately captures his abilities, then I would expect his WISC scores to remain similar. If the WISC scores improve, I would guess that he has some behavior or attention issues that were better on the day of the new testing, and it might be that working on attention and taking meds could help quite a bit. 

11 hours ago, leahnc725 said:

I started to feel that my son was labeled the problem student. I was getting numerous calls from the school for behaviors.

How is his relationship with peers? If school is perpetually difficult for him, and he's not being helped appropriately, I would expect problem behaviors. If he has sensory issues or auditory processing issues, he might be missing cues and then have "behaviors" based on being not in the loop about what is expected. Ditto if he has visual issues that haven't been caught (convergence, etc.).

[leahnc725]

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Edited November 2, 2022 by leahnc725
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[Lecka]

Have you tried medication?
 

If he’s at a 3rd grade level and he’s needing 1:1 instruction, you are probably looking at a serious IEP and I think it would be good for you to look for an advocate if that’s possible.  
 

On his previous IEP, does it say he needed 1:1 instruction?  
 

When you say he does 3rd grade work, are you using middle or high school level and scaling down in ways, and then his output is that level?  Or you’re using 3rd grade level materials?

 

Do you notice issues in every-day life?  Does he do many things that are appropriate to his age?  
 

Would you say, that if he were in an activity that didn’t require any academic skills, would other people be shocked at his reading comprehension score, or would they maybe not be surprised?

 

What about his listening comprehension?  Is it also challenging, or is it a lot better?

 

When he’s getting 1:1 help, is it really leading him through everything?  Is he stalled or does he also have poor retention?  

I think it would be good if you could sit down and talk to someone about all of this.  
 

He is old enough to be into transition planning stuff in his IEP.  Some of his scores, however much that means on any one day of testing, are in a range where I would think he could be doing special needs transition planning and be old enough to do whatever high school-level programs are available (and a fit) in your area.  
 

Did he have testing in 5th grade, and then these scores are the triennial 3 years later?  Are the scores pretty consistent?  
 

Is there any note at the beginning saying he seemed really distracted, or anything like that?  

 

[leahnc725]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:39 PM, Lecka said:

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Edited November 2, 2022 by leahnc725
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[Lecka]

Was he medicated or unmedicated for both tests?

 

The report does say he “demonstrated age-typical attention and activity levels.”  He at least came across like he was focusing well that day.  
 

I think you should inquire if you should try to have medication before testing again, if you set up an eval.  You might  get recommended either way.

 

Did you ever get an effective dosage with him where it seemed to help?  Was he long enough you could see if he seemed to learn better or have better retention while he was on it?  
 

Sometimes processing speed on testing does increase with medication.  
 

Do you see signs of low processing speed in daily life, apart from things like reading, writing, and math?  Do you think people would be shocked to find out he had a low processing speed?

 

 

[Lecka]

How long do you have until school starts?  
 

Honestly I think it would be worth it to try out medication before he starts, if there is time.  
 

If you say reading and writing are decent, do you mean — that’s not the part where he’s at a 3rd grade level?  Is it more that output is at a 3rd grade level?  
 

Something a lot of people think of with 3rd grade level and being stalled at that level — there’s known to be a transition in 4th grade level to more abstract and more about concepts and “higher level learning.”  
 

Do you feel like your son is stalled before a level that gets more abstract, more about concepts, more about “higher level learning?”

 

Or is it more something else?

 

It doesn’t go together with him coming across as bright and mature for his age.  
 

I think you’re going to need to try to think about that.  Because — you will also need to think about his strengths that are coming out when he comes across as bright and people would be surprised.  That is important, too.

 

Have you ever read about learning disabilities (or learning differences)?  Does anything like that fit what you have seen when you work with him?

 

 

 

 

[leahnc725]

On 8/20/2022 at 8:23 PM, Lecka said:

Deleted

Thank you again 😊

Edited November 2, 2022 by leahnc725
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[kbutton]

47 minutes ago, leahnc725 said:

I'm honestly not sure. He definitely reads above 3rd grade. Writing/Spelling - the writing process is not complete and he isn't descriptive with his ideas. 

This is a good argument in favor of really detailed language testing. 

[PeterPan]

On 8/20/2022 at 5:36 PM, leahnc725 said:

He told me yesterday that he wants to go back to school. He would be entering 9th grade. We talked about behavior expectations and needing an IEP and he seems on board. I just want to set him up for success and hopeful find any missing. 

Sounds like a good plan to put your energy into advocating for him in the IEP process. There is language testing they can do (if you can compel them) to try to figure out why his reading level is not going forward. Hone in on that if you can.