To worry, or not to worry?

[eternallytired]

I'm hoping someone on here has the experience to look at this and tell me if it's worth concern or not.

ODS is 12, and he's loved numbers since he first met them.  This is the first year he's had more than minor bumps in doing his math, but it's coming in a weird way.  He's working through AoPS Intro to Alg.  Some days--weeks, even--he has no problem grasping the information.  But then one day he'll open his book and be completely confused, as if the information is totally new to him.  So, for instance, last week he had no trouble with his work.  This week, working through material in the same chapter, he hardly made any progress.  Yesterday and today I went over the same material with him, and he still doesn't get it, even though this is not much different from last week's material--it builds on the same concepts.  But when I remind him of those concepts that he was working with last week, it's like I'm speaking gibberish.  Sometimes this happens mid-week, so it's not just that he forgets over the weekend.

DH says, "Oh, yeah.  Some days I just know I'm dumb and I shouldn't try to do anything at work that requires me to be smart.  It just happens."  But this doesn't sound normal to me, and it's really, really frustrating for a kid whose favorite subject has always been math.

Both he and DH have diagnosed (but not currently medicated) ADHD, if that matters.  I've been writing off his issues as adolescent brain blips, but since he's getting so disheartened I figured I'd ask here to make sure this isn't a red flag of some sort.  (And since I'm thinking of taking YDS in for a neuropsych eval, I figured maybe I can see if they have some sort of twofer deal if I should take ODS in, too! 😁)

[PeterPan]

My dd's inconsistencies were from processing fatigue. The low processing speed that comes with the ADHD means a very bright dc can literally just WEAR THEMSELVES OUT. The ADHD meds might help him *pace* his work and the meds will bump processing speed, making his day to day abilities more even. For my dd that meant the ability to work every day and not have so many Mary Poppins, gone floating on the wind, days.

Also consider working on his Interoception, so he can monitor how he's feeling and make better choices. https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/

[Not_a_Number]

20 hours ago, eternallytired said:

Yesterday and today I went over the same material with him, and he still doesn't get it, even though this is not much different from last week's material--it builds on the same concepts.

I don't have much to say about your main topic, since my kiddos are younger... although I'll say that they DO have days where it seems like they've forgotten every single thing I've taught them, lol, and they don't have ADHD or any executive functioning issues. 

I'll of course also poke my head in and ask what the concepts were, if you don't mind 😉 . 

[SDMomof3]

My DH and daughter both have ADHD and there are days that they will say that their brain is just not awake. Usually those are days that taking the meds help. DH will have days where he will just not do anything until the meds kick in because his brain is just dumb. It could be that your son is at the point where he need the medication. Dd didn't start ADHD meds until puberty hit, she was 14 (late bloomer), when she started having the brain blips.

Edited March 12, 2021 by SDMomof3

[eternallytired]

 

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'll of course also poke my head in and ask what the concepts were, if you don't mind 😉 . 

NaN, I think you must be EVERYWHERE on these boards!  I was working through the first half of 11.4 with him, and he couldn't for the life of him remember how a difference of squares worked, despite having used them all last week. (Halfway through chapter 10 he had a full day where he couldn't grasp the concept of a quadratic, despite having done them successfully for several days--a completely separate issue from getting stumped by 10.5.) 

I don't think this issue has anything to do with the content, to be honest.  If it were, I would think I could just remind him of what we were working on before and he'd pick up where he left off.  But when I say, "It's like yesterday's problem when..." and he stares at me blankly...  It's more a complete mental lapse.  It means that about a third of our days lately we make zero progress, which is frustrating for both of us.

36 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

My DH and daughter both have ADHD and there are days that they will say that their brain is just not awake. Usually those are days that taking the meds help. DH will have days where he will just not do anything until the meds kick in because his brain is just dumb. It could be that your son is at the point where he need the medication. Dd didn't start ADHD meds until puberty hit when she was 14( late bloomer), when she started having the brain blips.

He was on meds in first grade because he could NOT focus on anything.  But his body seems to adjust to meds very quickly: after six weeks, they didn't seem to make any difference.  After increasing dosage every two or three months for about a year to try to keep the meds in the range where they made an impact for him, the doc said we couldn't increase anymore, so we just took him off the meds.  He's been doing quite well overall sans meds, but things seem to be going slowly downhill in the past year-and-a-half.  Maybe it is time to take him back in to the neurologist and discuss re-medicating.  Thanks for the advice.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

increasing dosage

So maybe kind of a combo approach. One, obviously some meds, but two what else is involved that was making him need so much or respond so poorly? I don't know the answer, but I'm saying that's what you would google. Might give you some more ideas. Attention is not ONLY dopamine, kwim? There's also auditory processing, retained reflexes affecting how your body feels, etc. etc. 

So I'm just wondering if there could be something comorbid compounding it, kwim? 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

NaN, I think you must be EVERYWHERE on these boards!  I was working through the first half of 11.4 with him, and he couldn't for the life of him remember how a difference of squares worked, despite having used them all last week. (Halfway through chapter 10 he had a full day where he couldn't grasp the concept of a quadratic, despite having done them successfully for several days--a completely separate issue from getting stumped by 10.5.) 

Haha. I'm not usually on this board, I'm just a bit too busy procrastinating my work today... I hope you don't mind me poking my head in! I'll get out of here if you prefer 🙂 . 

What do you mean about grasping the concept of a quadratic? (And ignore this question if you'd rather I went off on my merry way 😄.) 

2 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

I don't think this issue has anything to do with the content, to be honest.  If it were, I would think I could just remind him of what we were working on before and he'd pick up where he left off.  But when I say, "It's like yesterday's problem when..." and he stares at me blankly...  It's more a complete mental lapse.  It means that about a third of our days lately we make zero progress, which is frustrating for both of us.

That does sound very frustrating. It's possible he just needs a break or some easier problems. 

As an experiment, do you think it's partially that some of these ideas are not FULLY internalized? So he may have been doing some pattern-matching earlier, but perhaps not fully committing them to memory? So maybe backing up to earlier topics and deepening those would be actually very fruitful? 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's possible he just needs a break or some easier problems. 

And he's 12, lol. Sometimes they just need to EAT. 

6 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

It means that about a third of our days lately we make zero progress, which is frustrating for both of us.

Three days is a long time.

6 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

neurologist

Why does he see a neurologist? He has something else going on like seizures?

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

And he's 12, lol. Sometimes they just need to EAT. 

It's like my kids and sleep, isn't it? If my kids are having a meltdown, they are sleep deprived. It's almost too obvious, because they aren't prone to food mood swings just yet (but then they are little.) 

[eternallytired]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So maybe kind of a combo approach. One, obviously some meds, but two what else is involved that was making him need so much or respond so poorly? I don't know the answer, but I'm saying that's what you would google. Might give you some more ideas. Attention is not ONLY dopamine, kwim? There's also auditory processing, retained reflexes affecting how your body feels, etc. etc. 

So I'm just wondering if there could be something comorbid compounding it, kwim? 

Re: retained reflexes, I actually had all my kids do primitive reflex integration exercises and vision therapy exercises when YDS was diagnosed with issues 4+ years ago, since I figured they were silly, fun activities and could benefit everyone.  I was told by an OT a couple years ago that we were successful in what we did with YDS, so I'd imagine those areas would be sound for ODS, as well.  But maybe there's more...

I'm kinda considering asking for an actual neuropsych eval for him, as well as my younger.  (Though I may reconsider when I see the potential cost...)  When he was six, the neurologist just had me fill out a survey and handed me meds.  I'd really like to better understand his strengths and weaknesses and how on earth he learns, since I have always had zero clue how to teach him.  DH calls him an "intuitive learner," which in my book just means that if he gets it, he gets it, and if he doesn't, there's absolutely nothing I can do that will clarify it for him.

[eternallytired]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Haha. I'm not usually on this board, I'm just a bit too busy procrastinating my work today... I hope you don't mind me poking my head in! I'll get out of here if you prefer 🙂 . 

What do you mean about grasping the concept of a quadratic? (And ignore this question if you'd rather I went off on my merry way 😄.) 

That does sound very frustrating. It's possible he just needs a break or some easier problems. 

As an experiment, do you think it's partially that some of these ideas are not FULLY internalized? So he may have been doing some pattern-matching earlier, but perhaps not fully committing them to memory? So maybe backing up to earlier topics and deepening those would be actually very fruitful? 

No, I don't at all mind you poking your head in; I'm just always astounded at people who seem to be super responsive on here.  Though perhaps more people are on their phones.  I hate trying to type anything on my phone, so I always have to wait until I've got time to be on my laptop.

As for grasping the concept of a quadratic, he started work that day with a question that mentioned quadratic equations, and he said, "What are those?"  So I explained that those are what he had been working on for several days, and when he looked confused I went back to the spot where it introduced them in the book.  He acted as if he hadn't heard of them before and had no idea how they worked.  He was unable to factor them at all that day, but the next day he was perfectly fine.

For now, I offered him options: try to keep going, take a break and review with Alcumus and maybe some Khan videos or similar, try a completely different algebra program, or take a break and test out EMF.  He decided to try EMF for a break.  After he tries their one month free, he and I will have to figure out what to do.  I'm tempted to have him zip through another algebra program to show me if he knows the basics, but I'm not sure yet what we'll do.

[eternallytired]

20 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

And he's 12, lol. Sometimes they just need to EAT. 

Three days is a long time.

Why does he see a neurologist? He has something else going on like seizures?

Whoops!  I missed your second post.  He's usually eating while doing math.  He always seems to get hungry right after he starts work.  🙂  (And my goodness does that kid ever EAT lately!)

As for the neurologist, his pedi said that's the only way to get an ADHD diagnosis around here.  Apparently--at least according to this guy--different areas handle it differently.  Here, they defer to a neuro diagnosis.  Weird, but I just went with it.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

No, I don't at all mind you poking your head in; I'm just always astounded at people who seem to be super responsive on here.  Though perhaps more people are on their phones.  I hate trying to type anything on my phone, so I always have to wait until I've got time to be on my laptop.

I'm on my laptop right now. See, I OUGHT to be working, lol... this is my work time. But I don't wanna, so I'm on here 😉 . 

During the day, I'm often on my phone, and I definitely reply less often and am more terse. 

 

4 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

As for grasping the concept of a quadratic, he started work that day with a question that mentioned quadratic equations, and he said, "What are those?"  So I explained that those are what he had been working on for several days, and when he looked confused I went back to the spot where it introduced them in the book.  He acted as if he hadn't heard of them before and had no idea how they worked.  He was unable to factor them at all that day, but the next day he was perfectly fine.

Ooooh. One of THOSE days. Yeah, nothing I can help with conceptually. We do have days like that around here, and they do shake me. Like, kid, you knew this yesterday!! What gives?? And of course, the next day is usually totally fine. 

DD4 had a day like this today, actually. She's been cheerfully adding using place value for weeks now. Today, she decided to just... throw away a 10 instead of trading it for the next unit. For a later question, when I asked her to explain an answer, she told me "well, I thought about it, and it couldn't be anything else, so then it's 2," which I did NOT accept as a reasonable answer, lol. 

I'm still figuring out what to do on days like this myself. Some part of me is tempted to just find them easier work on these days, but then I tend to be worried I'll encourage lack of thinking on more normal days. But it sounds like it's quite obvious with him when a day is wonky as opposed to the work is just hard, so I'd vote a change of pace for him.  

Anyway, thanks for letting me chime in! 

 

4 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

For now, I offered him options: try to keep going, take a break and review with Alcumus and maybe some Khan videos or similar, try a completely different algebra program, or take a break and test out EMF.  He decided to try EMF for a break.  After he tries their one month free, he and I will have to figure out what to do.  I'm tempted to have him zip through another algebra program to show me if he knows the basics, but I'm not sure yet what we'll do.

That sounds like a good idea. You could also do some simple drills -- when they aren't able to process more sophisticated thoughts, they may still be able to work on fluency on skills they've already mastered, maybe? I'm not sure if that's how it works, to be honest... just musing out loud. 

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

neuropsych eval

Sure. Or honestly, look for someone on the Hoagies Gifted list who will TALK with you. Some neuropsych evals are just really disappointing. I would start there, just google to find it.

29 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

I'm tempted to have him zip through another algebra program

I'm pretty sure my dd did three, lol. Their brains are kinda crazy at this age and for a while.

26 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

here. 

US or somewhere else?

[SDMomof3]

1 hour ago, eternallytired said:

He was on meds in first grade because he could NOT focus on anything.  But his body seems to adjust to meds very quickly: after six weeks, they didn't seem to make any difference.  After increasing dosage every two or three months for about a year to try to keep the meds in the range where they made an impact for him, the doc said we couldn't increase anymore, so we just took him off the meds.  He's been doing quite well overall sans meds, but things seem to be going slowly downhill in the past year-and-a-half.  Maybe it is time to take him back in to the neurologist and discuss re-medicating.  Thanks for the advice.

Dd's neurologist told us at the beginning that for some kids it may take trying several meds before finding one that works. Dd has tried 3 different medications. the first one was for 6 months, the second for 18 months, and the last medication was the one that worked for her. She has been on it for 4 years, no issues.

[eternallytired]

54 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Sure. Or honestly, look for someone on the Hoagies Gifted list who will TALK with you. Some neuropsych evals are just really disappointing. I would start there, just google to find it.

I'm pretty sure my dd did three, lol. Their brains are kinda crazy at this age and for a while.

US or somewhere else?

I'll check the Hoagies list.  We're in TX.  Thanks!

9 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

Dd's neurologist told us at the beginning that for some kids it may take trying several meds before finding one that works. Dd has tried 3 different medications. the first one was for 6 months, the second for 18 months, and the last medication was the one that worked for her. She has been on it for 4 years, no issues.

Yeah, we tried several, as well.  Stimulant meds worked horribly for him.  After trying two or three, they switched us to...oh, I'd have to look it up.  Anyhow, the doc said since stimulants don't seem to work, it significantly narrows his options.  And we actually did take him off meds with the thought that maybe going without would allow the meds to be effective again once he hit puberty and perhaps needed them more.  I was just thinking that things had been going so smoothly, perhaps he'd be fine.  I guess I was too optimistic, too soon.

[SanDiegoMom]

5 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

I'll check the Hoagies list.  We're in TX.  Thanks!

Yeah, we tried several, as well.  Stimulant meds worked horribly for him.  After trying two or three, they switched us to...oh, I'd have to look it up.  Anyhow, the doc said since stimulants don't seem to work, it significantly narrows his options.  And we actually did take him off meds with the thought that maybe going without would allow the meds to be effective again once he hit puberty and perhaps needed them more.  I was just thinking that things had been going so smoothly, perhaps he'd be fine.  I guess I was too optimistic, too soon.

Did you try both Adderall and Ritalin? My daughter did terribly with Adderall, did ok with Ritalin, but is doing amazing on Vyvanse.  She takes a combo of Vyvanse and Strattera (which helps her working memory).  She kept going up on Ritalin and the side effects got too bad while the actual good periods, with the meds working, were too short.  But she is older -- we didn't know she was ADHD until she was 18.  

Even now if she forgets her meds, she feels like her brain has blips, where it's just "broken".  That's her phrase for it.  When she was younger and unmedicated she really existed between two states -- extreme hyperfocus or complete disengagement and brain fog. 

[eternallytired]

6 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Did you try both Adderall and Ritalin? My daughter did terribly with Adderall, did ok with Ritalin, but is doing amazing on Vyvanse.  She takes a combo of Vyvanse and Strattera (which helps her working memory).  She kept going up on Ritalin and the side effects got too bad while the actual good periods, with the meds working, were too short.  But she is older -- we didn't know she was ADHD until she was 18.  

Even now if she forgets her meds, she feels like her brain has blips, where it's just "broken".  That's her phrase for it.  When she was younger and unmedicated she really existed between two states -- extreme hyperfocus or complete disengagement and brain fog. 

Yes, we tried both Adderall and Ritalin (or their generic counterparts).  What finally worked was Intuniv/Guanfacine.  The effects were incredible--he was so much more pleasant to be around (less impulsive, crazy) and made leaps and bounds of academic progress.  But the improvements kept wearing off. 🙁  He didn't have awful side effects, like you describe with your daughter (or like he had with the other meds), it just seemed pointless to continue giving him something that had no obvious impact on him.

[SDMomof3]

24 minutes ago, eternallytired said:

I was just thinking that things had been going so smoothly, perhaps he'd be fine.  I guess I was too optimistic, too soon.

I also went through the same feelings with my daughter. We take her off the meds during the summer, so she can have a break. Then in the fall we go through the same feelings of optimism, but then realize that she does need them.

14 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

My daughter did terribly with Adderall, did ok with Ritalin, but is doing amazing on Vyvanse.  

 

For daughter it was the opposite, she did terribly on Ritalin, and ok on Adderall. The med that worked for her was Concerta.

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, eternallytired said:

I'll check the Hoagies list. 

https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm#utx