Feeling Confused

[Msweetpea2]

I just bought AAS for my DD10 that reads but struggles with spelling (I started with level 1 even though she knows the 75 phonograms because I want to really cement spelling help for her and also because it will boost her confidence to start from a place she 'knows'). I taught her to read using RLTL which is OG style and has been great for DS8 and DS6 for now.

I ALSO purchased Phonics Pathways for DS8 who is not reading yet (this is due to some eye issues similar to DD10, which has now been corrected.. and also some 'attention' issues). DS8 and DS6 know the first 26 phonograms (again, OG style.... they know ALL the sounds each one makes) and we are just starting on the multi-letter phonograms.

Here's where I'm confused and maybe you can tell me I'm not crazy. I spent a good amount of time reading through Phonics Pathway and AAS. I completely, 100% understand AAS and how to teach it and can see how it 'works'. Is this NOT the same as teaching reading?! I understand AAR says that children are learning to decode while AAS is teaching them to encode, but is this not kind of simultaneously learned?

I tried to do a brief lesson with DS8 with Phonics Pathway and he seemed so thrown off. "Why are we only saying the short a sound?! /a/ says a, a, ah" (sorry can't figure out the correct diacritical marks on a keyboard right now). The whole lesson was a bust.  He eventually was able to read each cvc word but was annoyed at the process of a   s-a   sa   sa-t   sat.   He MUCH preferred just pointing to each letter s-a-t while saying their sound and then blending/reading them. 

Okay, so I've accepted that maybe Phonics Pathway isn't the best choice for us and that's fine. Do I really need to buy AAR 1 since it covers the 26 phonograms DS8 and DS6 have mastered? Can I NOT use AAS to finish teaching them phonograms (and reading) at the same time?

I have no experience with AAR (obviously) and if you all say it's different or super helpful, I will trust that.  I may be mistaken and wrong for the past few years, but doesn't most OG teach reading THROUGH spelling? (ex. If I were to dictate /c/ /a/ /t/ both of my boys would easily be able to write the word cat... and then they would tell me 20 words that rhyme with cat including some completely made up words that make them laugh.)

Help. Am I losing my mind here?

Edited February 3, 2021 by Msweetpea2

[Melissa in Australia]

I was under the impression that you use AAR1 first then use AAS 1 while you are doing AAR2. That is the way I have used it, though I may be doing it wrong.

I have always found that teaching spelling reinforces the phonics learned in teaching  reading and vise versa. though I have always had children with dyslexia or in the case of my twins FASD learning difficulties

[goldenecho]

So, I tried to do what you were talking about, but I feel like I may have done my son a dis-service.  Yes, AAS can be used sort of in a backwards way to teach reading, but there are things that are easier to learn in reading and easier to learn in spelling, and I think there is a different order to it as well.  There are also things that are harder to spell if you haven't really learned to read them first. 

But I never ended up using AAR and I ended up using ProgressivePhonics (which is free) along with All About Spelling, which did work...but I think it would have helped to start with the reading program first.  Once I started working on the reading first and then doing the spelling work it did seem to go better.

I do think though, if you do AAR, there may be some things you can skip that you've already covered in AAS. 

[wendyroo]

As previous postered mentioned, the problem is that spelling is a lot harder, takes a lot longer, and is typically tackled in a different order than reading. 

For example, contractions aren’t dealt with until AAS 3...but it would be a huge handicap for kids to not learn to read them early on. Words with the “igh” phonogram are difficult to spell (because learning when to encode light instead of lite takes intuition built only through exposure to a lot of words), but are easy to read.

Recently my 5 year old was learning to read the “ph” sound at the same time my 9 year old was learning to spell it in AAS 4. 

[Msweetpea2]

Okay, so I think that makes sense (and explains why my DD10 is reading Harry Potter but her spelling is... interesting. 😂)

My confusion was more in regards to the fact that DS8 and DS6 have mastered all sounds of the first 26 phonograms which is where AAS 1 starts (from what I’ve read in the Teacher’s Guide, lesson 1 is just reviewing the first 26 phonograms until you confirm student has mastered them.)

I used RLTL - Reading Lessons thru Literature, and after the first 26 phonograms are mastered, you start a spelling list and do a few words a day while learning new multi-letter phonograms. Then you review and read the lists that you wrote. It helped DD10 learn to read eventually, but clearly not spell (she knows phonograms well but didn’t learn the spelling rules in any meaningful way.) I’ve bookmarked Elizabeth’s Syllables page to start incorporating as well!

FWIW, DD10 and DS8 both have glasses to help their sweet little eyes since they each have one eye that is mildly nearsighted and one that is majorly farsighted, along with astigmatisms and mild tracking issues. (I still feel really bad that I didn’t figure it all out sooner. I knew something was off but it took 3 separate optometrists for me to find one who could actually help.)

I just want to help DS8 (he only turned 8 in Dec) learn to read as he’s realizing that he doesn’t want to be left out from certain books that his sisters talk about, and he wants to contribute to reading instructions during school (I’m sure this is mostly because he enjoys being ‘in charge’ every once in a while 😂).

Thank you all for taking the time to reply! I really appreciate it ❤️

[Xahm]

My 7 year old son, slower to read son, is 1/3 through AAS 2 after starting at 1 at the beginning of the school year. It has helped his reading significantly, I think because it's helped him feel more confident. His 8 year old sister, who is soon to finish level 3 after starting 2 at the beginning of the school year, learned to read at 3, so he never watched her take her time to sound things out. Spelling gave him explicit permission to do this, as well as opportunity to watch her make and learn from mistakes. It might have just been his time to bloom, but we'll be continuing on with AAS despite the hassle of little pieces in a house with a toddler. I know this doesn't address where you are right now, but I thought it might be helpful in coming months.

[Msweetpea2]

2 hours ago, Xahm said:

My 7 year old son, slower to read son, is 1/3 through AAS 2 after starting at 1 at the beginning of the school year. It has helped his reading significantly, I think because it's helped him feel more confident. His 8 year old sister, who is soon to finish level 3 after starting 2 at the beginning of the school year, learned to read at 3, so he never watched her take her time to sound things out. Spelling gave him explicit permission to do this, as well as opportunity to watch her make and learn from mistakes.

Thanks for replying! Are you saying that you taught him through AAS or that he was already reading (albeit slowly) before starting AAS 1?

[Xahm]

9 minutes ago, Msweetpea2 said:

Thanks for replying! Are you saying that you taught him through AAS or that he was already reading (albeit slowly) before starting AAS 1?

He was already reading (mostly Progressive Phonics for teaching), but he wasn't ever doing it voluntarily, so he wasn't getting the fluency that comes from lots of practice. There were some phonemes we hadn't gotten to in reading, and won't for a while yet in spelling (like -ough), but he's now reading simple books for pleasure and for his reading lessons we are buddy reading aloud at a slightly difficult level for him. With this added confidence and practice, he has no problem when I explain a new sound on the fly, and he retains it well.

[melmichigan]

Spelling and reading are tackled in different orders, the common ground being the phonograms.  My DS finished AAR4 and is now using AAS 5, with spelling always behind reading.  He now reads well but still really struggles with spelling.

[Nichola]

I think they are different enough that it would be challenging to teach phonics just from AAS.

I agree with the others that reading tends to come before spelling. I would also say that AAR is just more fun than AAS, so my kid is much more compliant for AAR than AAS (although the tile app has helped tremendously with making AAS more enjoyable). With AAR there are activities for each lesson, and the readers are well done. Although both programs are good, if I had to choose between AAR and AAS, I’d choose AAR.

I would agree with doing AAR1 first, and then AAR2 and AAS1 together. 

There is an All About Reading/All About Spelling Facebook group that may help answer your questions too.

Edited April 24 by Nichola

[Msweetpea2]

6 hours ago, ...... said:

Based on using both programs, I do think they are different enough that it would be challenging to teach phonics just from AAS.

Hi, thanks for replying! So if my boys already know (and have mastered) the first 26 phonograms, does it still make sense to start with AAR1 or was your 7yo good with AAR2? I've done the first 5 lessons of AAS1 with my DD10 and they are totally just review (but fun for her and a good way to get used to the tiles), but I could easily see both my boys being able to do these first AAS1 lessons with zero problems.

[wendyroo]

3 hours ago, Msweetpea2 said:

Hi, thanks for replying! So if my boys already know (and have mastered) the first 26 phonograms, does it still make sense to start with AAR1 or was your 7yo good with AAR2? I've done the first 5 lessons of AAS1 with my DD10 and they are totally just review (but fun for her and a good way to get used to the tiles), but I could easily see both my boys being able to do these first AAS1 lessons with zero problems.

In our experience it ramps up quickly. The first half of AAS1 has been easy for all my kids. They had used Explode the Code, so they had little trouble with CVC words, initial and final blends, or digraphs.

But about halfway through it starts introducing rules that were new to them: how to choose between initial c or k, how to choose between final k or ck, and the FLOSS rule. This was the first time spelling was significantly harder than reading. They could all easily read “cat”, “kite”, “break”, “back”, and “doll” - decoding them is uncomplicated - but now they had to memorize multi-step rules to know how to spell them. 

We have just found that the second half requires juggling a lot of mental processes at the same time. In later lessons the kiddo has to focus on slowly saying a word and hearing its sounds, while remembering what sounds each letter makes, and remembering the difference between consonants and vowels and short vowels and long vowels, and remembering the steps of the new spelling rules including which rules are for initial vs final “k”, and focusing on how to physically form the letters to get them written down. It is a big step up from the early lessons. 

[Nichola]

On 2/5/2021 at 1:42 AM, Msweetpea2 said:

Hi, thanks for replying! So if my boys already know (and have mastered) the first 26 phonograms, does it still make sense to start with AAR1 or was your 7yo good with AAR2? I've done the first 5 lessons of AAS1 with my DD10 and they are totally just review (but fun for her and a good way to get used to the tiles), but I could easily see both my boys being able to do these first AAS1 lessons with zero problems.

If you look on their website, I believe they have placement tests for each level. That’s how I decided to put my kid in AAR2 instead of AAR1. This kid was able to read some level 1 readers before we started AAR2.

My 5-year-old is learning letters and sounds this year but has not started putting sounds together into words. I’m planning for this one to do AAR1 next fall. 

I hope this is helpful. Do look at the placement tests though if you haven’t yet. I found those to be a good guide.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Nichola