Where to go next with 9th grade son's math?

[mamaof2andtwins]

Here is the history: He started out in TT Alegbra 1 at the beginning of the school year. He listens to/watches the lesson on the CD, and then goes to his seat to work the problems in his notebook. I let him grade the work. Perhaps this has been one of my errors, but I do let the older students grade their work. I think the biggest error on my part has been that I haven't made him do corrections. He will tell me that he just mixed up a sign or something, but honestly, I really don't know.

 

In early November he got a low score on the chapter 7 tests. At the same time I signed up for a free trial of ALEKS. For the past month, he has been working on ALEKS. He likes it. I think he finds the pie chart motivating. He likes to see his progress and know where he is going as well. In addition, he seems to graviate to programs that are not linear in their design. Perhaps this is why he did so well with Miquon. One thing I like about ALEKS Algebra 1 is that it still contains arithmetic. When he took the initial ALEKS assessment, he found that he had forgotten a lot of what he had learned about percents, proportions, etc. in 7th and 8th grade. I do dislike that there is no way to get a "grade" in ALEKS plus I have read several posts here about it not being enough for the student.

 

Our month is almost up and I need to make a decision about math. My gut feeling is that he should go back into TT to finish the year, and then perhaps do another month of ALEKS at the end of the year. Of course, I am always thinking ahead and wondering what to do in 10th grade. It would be great if I could find something like ALEKS with more support for the teacher and actual tests for the student.

 

My questions are where would you go next in this scenario, and what could you recommend for 10th grade given what I have shared about my son. If you need more info, please let me know.

 

I appreciate your time.

 

Jennie

Edited December 5, 2008 by mamaof2andtwins

[katarzyna]

Have you looked into Thinkwell Beginning Algebra or YourTeacher.com?

[momee]

Hi Jeanie,

not that we're experts by any means but we've had our issues with math, boy let me tell ya.

Anyway, ds has started and stopped a few curricula with math and we went through a rough spot with TT just recently. If I hadn't been paying close close attention (you learn after two or three times) we would be looking to switch curricula again.

 

Would you believe now he's making 90 - 100 on each lesson. This is after missing like 10 - 15 on lessons fro chapter one till around chapter 5 or so! Talk about frustration.

 

#1 - admitted he wasn't really trying and there wasn't really a penalty for getting them wrong so why work so hard at something he didn't like anyway. (MOM's fault partially because I let him get by with it). Now he sees he's doing himself harm mathematically (lightbulb coming on - hey, we just went over that, what was it again???). He's also realized he's doing himself harm in that he REDOES the entire lesson when he misses more than 5. PAINful.

 

#2 once he realized I was serious - I noted a distinct change. I consistently had to check his work and make him, that day, redo it. If he ever wanted to be done with alg. he needed to perform acceptably the first time. Extremely obvious common sense, but I am learning too.

 

#3 admits he needed more time with the lessons than he was giving it and now reads the lesson, watches the DVD, does the practice, checks those, if wrong WATCH them worked out, then do the homework, then check those if wrong WATCH them - sometimes he thought he knew what was up and skipped those steps.

 

Anyway - short and simply - he wasn't trying and I wasn't checking. Now he is, and I am. Who'da thunk it :)

Ah, maturity. What a glorious thing.

[mamaof2andtwins]

Bumping up to see if there is anymore wisdom out there.

 

I appreciate your responses.

 

Momee, I think you have a lot of wisdom, and you may have just nailed our issue. Thank you.

 

Jennie

[MomsintheGarden]

When my oldest (ds) started Algebra I, I told a friend that he would be doing his own homework checking because I thought he was old enough. She recommended I reconsider because she had been homeschooled, her parents let her check her own Algebra work, and because of that she got really far behind in understanding the concepts. She had to repeat that year of high school math.

 

That REALLY wasn't what I wanted to hear, but I took her advice. After checking his lessons all the way through 1st semester calculus, I can honestly say it has been worth the incredible amount of work I did to keep up. I was not always able to check the lessons right away, but he just kept on churning out the lessons and eventually I would catch up. I would make it worth his while to try to do the lesson correctly the first time. He usually had to find his own careless errors, and if he missed several problems of the same type, he had to do extras. He's in college now, taking more calculus, etc., and doing very well.

 

The other day I told my friend thank you again for her advice. She had forgotten what she said! Her oldest is now in high school, and she will be checking his lessons as well.

 

Just food for thought.

GardenMom

[mamaof2andtwins]

Well, on Monday, we went back through Chapter 7 of TT Algebra. I took all the problems he missed, and he worked corrections on those. We went over the answers he missed from the corrections.

 

Yesterday, he took the test for Chapter 7 and got a 69%, :confused: and that was probably generous. I am so discouraged about this.

 

My plan for today is to have him go over the solutions for the wrong answers, make corrections and take the test again. It is too bad they do not have alternate tests.

 

My son has always done very well in math (upper 80's in test scores). I am not sure if the problem is with him, the program or me.

 

Thanks.

 

Jennie

[Jane in NC]

Jennie,

 

I did not weigh in previously since I am unfamiliar with the scope and sequence of TT. After you reading your last post, I glanced online at the TT Table of Contents and see that your son is having trouble with problems involving fractions and "distributing in reverse".

 

Many students begin with a solid understanding of algebra but hit a wall roughly one third of the way through the course when a level of abstraction develops that they cannot seem to grasp. I often discourage curriculum jumping because it seems that another program will go swimmingly until about the same point in the material--where the wall is hit again.

 

My son is fairly good in math but there are many days when I do not leave the room when he is doing this subject. He checks every problem as he is doing them and I make myself available to answer questions on his work. Yes, this is labor intensive on my part, but much easier for everyone's sanity in the long run. My friends in high school who had engineer fathers did their homework in the same manner: with dad hovering nearby which apparently was nervewracking at times!

 

In my many years of teaching math, I have found that some students are more willing to tango with a problem. If the answer is not right, they will first check their arithmetic. Then look at the material in the book to see if they have applied the right formula. The best are willing to start from scratch and redo the problem (which is what my husband and I did, but then we both went on to get masters degrees in math!) Many students only try a run of the problem once, write down an answer, and then shrug their shoulders when it is incorrect. I am not saying this is true of your son, but some students are just plain lazy when it comes to looking for arithmetic errors or calculator entry problems. I often wonder if these same students are less inclined to rewrite paragraphs or rip out a less than perfect seam when sewing, i.e. are some people more detail oriented, more perfectionist in spirit?

 

Of course the abstraction seen in mathematics is challenging to some minds. Let me rephrase that. The abstraction seen in algebra is challenging to some who will later excel in geometry. Conversely, some will collapse under the weight of geometric proofs after flying through algebraic algorithms. No two minds are alike!

 

Let's start with the premise that mathematics is hard for your son. Hence he will be required to work harder than the average Joe. He needs to create (with your guidance) strategies to succeed. This could mean redoing lessons; spending two hours a day on math (not unusual for students who are good in math let alone those who are challenged by the subject); keeping a notebook of formulas, tips, techniques, sample problems, etc. He needs to accept ownership of this subject even though you'll be hovering nearby as his guardian angel!

 

I essentially had to do this with my son over the years not only in math but in other subjects. What is the point of a base line understanding? Granted, we are grasping for something higher here. The blood, sweat and tears are not always pretty, but creating a solid work ethic to face a small challenge like algebra provides a solid foundation for greater challenges down the road.

 

End of sermon. Go and seize the day, people!

Jane

[mamaof2andtwins]

Jane,

 

Thank you for taking the time to write all that out. I appreciate it. I am especially encouraged that it is not uncommon for a student to have difficulty 1/3 of the way through the course.

 

I did very well in algebra and even scored a 96% on my Regents exam here in NY. Geometry was another matter altogether. My teacher could not figure out how I could always get inverse proofs correct but not regular proofs. I also have an engineer father who, thankfully, did not hang around me. It was bad enough when I was struggling with chemistry.

 

However, I am now 22 years away from that algebra course. I feel like I would have to take this course right along side him for it to make any sense in my mind. I actually feel this way with most of his high school courses this year. I am teaching 3 other children, and I just don't know where the time could be found for such learning.

 

Jonathan does like math. He likes figuring it out a problem. I also have found through the years that the more math he does (in a day), the more mistakes he makes.

 

I feel like I am just going on about this now, but I do appreciate your input. I am not sure what strategies are best to employ.

 

Jennie

[Jane in NC]

Jennie,

 

Hope I did not sound too harsh in my previous message. Too often on this board I read of parents throwing in the towel with math curriculum after math curriculum. I think that I have been wanting to give a "tough love" math talk for a walk, but tried to temper my comments somewhat. Your post simply presented my venue.

 

Take it all with a grain of salt!

 

With respect to recalling what was done in decades past: I know what you mean! I have struggled to keep abreast with my son's Latin, but he has advanced beyond what I did in high school. Without teacher manuals holding my hand, I don't know what I'd do.

 

Wishing you and yours well,

Jane

[Robin in DFW]

She had the same trouble for a while. She'd do great and then she'd begin to peter out...

 

She had been determined to only use the book...not the cd's...well, I put an end to that.

 

Each day she corrects work from the previous day, reworking the missed problem(s), usually getting it correct the second time around. If she can't seem to get it, she watches the solutions cd and oftentimes, will review the lesson in question. She then proceeds to read the next book lesson, watches the cd lesson, does the practice problems, checks them and then does the lesson problems. I check her work.

 

One thing I did determine when she had attempted TT Algebra 1 last year...she struggled more as a 14 year old. I thought it was the program, so we switched...several times...to other, more traditional textbook programs only to fail miserably. So, this fall, we started over with TT Algebra 1...she did 2 lessons a day until she got to the point where they were no longer a repeat from her first time around and now she does one lesson a day. She will finish up Algebra 1 next month and has done great this time. She is getting ready to add in Geometry and we will go ahead and begin Algebra 2 in the spring so she can be ready for the PSAT next October. We hope to have her through the Pre-Calc course by SAT time.

 

I think in her case, it had a lot to do with mental maturity and being able to work out the abstractedness (is that a word?) of algebra. She is extremely mature emotionally and is very motivated and diligent in her work, but algebra was a real stinker for her. I think that little bit of extra mental growth time helped her a great deal.

 

Don't be discouraged and don't throw in the towel with TT. My dd did terrible on some of those TT tests also, but this time she is doing great...even on the new topics.

 

hth,

Robin

[Storm Bay]

We found TT Algebra 1 to be a poor Algebra course. We briefly did Jacobs (half a year but it was too slow and boring for her math pace even though I gave her 2 years to do it because she hates math), then dd did most of Lial's (we don't skip often.) We decided she ought to review Alg 1 because she was only 13 when done and she hopes to get a full scholarship to university (a dream, but some achieve it!), and tried TT. It has a lot of pre-Algebra in it and we found it lacking in a number of areas, so we went back to Gelfand's which we bought when she was 11 and ready for Algebra, but not for long problems such as Gelfand's has. We use that along with an older edition of Dolciani because she prefers variety and I like the combinaiton.

 

I'm unfamiliar with Aleks, so cannot comment on it, but I was very unhappy with TT as was dd who is quite qualified to know about Algebar 1 textbooks by now ;). btw, she's mathy, as you can see by the fact that she was ready for Algebra at 11 (even though she hates math), but had trouble with TT she didn't have elsewhere.

 

TT is not finished yet, so there's no one who has done the entire series and then gone to university with just that for math, so the jury is still out on it as an entire math program.

[mamaof2andtwins]

We found TT Algebra 1 to be a poor Algebra course.

 

Could you give examples to support your position?

 

We briefly did Jacobs (half a year but it was too slow and boring for her math pace even though I gave her 2 years to do it because she hates math), then dd did most of Lial's (we don't skip often.) We decided she ought to review Alg 1 because she was only 13 when done and she hopes to get a full scholarship to university (a dream, but some achieve it!), and tried TT.

 

I am not following what you are saying here. Is there a program that you liked?

 

It has a lot of pre-Algebra in it and we found it lacking in a number of areas,

 

Again, I am wondering if you can give concrete examples to support this statement.

 

TT is not finished yet, so there's no one who has done the entire series and then gone to university with just that for math, so the jury is still out on it as an entire math program.

 

I am aware that the program is not finished. I am not really interested in tearing apart the program. It is the one we own, and this is what we will finish the year with. It am not going to try several programs to get the right fit half way through the year. I appreicate Jane's wisdom not to bounce from program to program. If you have specific suggestions on how I can help my son I would be encouraged to hear them.

 

I do appreciate the time you took to answer my post. Thank you.

 

Jennie

[mamaof2andtwins]

Jennie,

 

Hope I did not sound too harsh in my previous message. Too often on this board I read of parents throwing in the towel with math curriculum after math curriculum. I think that I have been wanting to give a "tough love" math talk for a walk, but tried to temper my comments somewhat. Your post simply presented my venue.

 

Take it all with a grain of salt!

 

With respect to recalling what was done in decades past: I know what you mean! I have struggled to keep abreast with my son's Latin, but he has advanced beyond what I did in high school. Without teacher manuals holding my hand, I don't know what I'd do.

 

Wishing you and yours well,

Jane

 

Jane,

 

Thank you. I did not find your post harsh at all. I found it informative and full of good wisdom. I happen to agree with your position about jumping from math program to math program.

 

Jennie

[mamaof2andtwins]

Robin,

 

Your post was very encouraging. Thank you. I appreciate hearing your experience.

 

Jennie

[Moni]

:)

at the TT Table of Contents and see that your son is having trouble with problems involving fractions and "distributing in reverse". Many students begin with a solid understanding of algebra but hit a wall

 

It's always Chapter 5.

:-)

I always say Chapter 5 is the most difficult part in the Algebra-1 book.

I guess for TT it's Ch 7. ;)

 

It's really no harder than last week...it's just that the student weaknesses from moving on before mastery in K-8 math starts rearing its ugly head.

 

And it's okay for the math to be difficult.

And It's okay for the students to miss a lot of problems even on re-do.

 

Just whatever you do ;) let the student make his own corrections and don't move on before mastery.

 

Doesn't matter if it's the same test over and over, the same assignment over and over.

The point is we want the student to do the problems all correctly the first time.

Repeating helps this process.

 

And it's good that he is doing so poorly.

Now you know for certain what he should be working on!

 

:seeya:

[Storm Bay]

Could you give examples to support your position?

 

The table of contensts and the material covered in the first chapters are pre-Algebra. Not that this is bad in and of itself, becuase Jacob's also includes pre-Algebra in its first 4 chapters.

 

Sure. Not nearly enough emphasis on proofs, even simple ones, theory. Not enough meat. I do apologize as I wrote another thread on Algebra that included teaching textbook before I came to this, and sometimes when I do that my second post isn't always clear.

 

I am not following what you are saying here. Is there a program that you liked?

 

Yes, we like Dolciani Structures and Methods, earlier edition (ours is 1965, bought used for a great price, but up to 1975 is good.) The writing is far more clear. We also like Gelfand's, but I'd suggest that for a very mathy child or one who loves theory. Some of the problems are very long. I insist because dd wants to be a science major and logic and thinking skills are two of the most lacking things in most Algebra programs today. I want more than plug in the numbers, but programs that include the why.

 

Again, I am wondering if you can give concrete examples to support this statement.

 

Sorry, but your quote of my material doesn't show up here, so I'm not sure what I said. We found TT to be poorly written compared with other Algebra programs we used. That said, some people like it.

 

 

 

I am aware that the program is not finished. I am not really interested in tearing apart the program. It is the one we own, and this is what we will finish the year with. It am not going to try several programs to get the right fit half way through the year. I appreicate Jane's wisdom not to bounce from program to program. If you have specific suggestions on how I can help my son I would be encouraged to hear them.

 

Fair enough, and we try to avoid bouncing around from curricula to curricula within a year as well. However, you may find that if you switch for Alg 2 or Geometry, whichever you choose to do next, you may find you have significant gaps and having used both TT and what Jane suggests I saw an enormous difference. Yes, any student can hit a wall with any Algebra program. We don't switch easily. But my dd started Algebra at 11, and is now redoing it at 13 with far better materials for what we're looking for, so we haven't switched quickly, either. I'd say that we have averaged one method or combination per year (I let her take 2 years for Algebra 1 the first time because she hates math and was ready so early). But I was on a quest for something that would help her meet her goals, which include majoring in science and getting a full academic scholarship so she doesn't have to live at home;). She can do the work with a ninety percent average, but didn't understandthe why's just the how's.

 

I have finally come to agree with the posters who have said that the best Algebra books are written by mathematicians. Not that every Algebra text written by a mathematician is good, but it really has made a difference. fwiw, I have 3 dc and have kept our TT Algebra 1 book for my 10 yo to use as part of her pre-Algebra course since she'll be starting it at 11. There are many things I like about it, such as the humour, which will appeall to my 10 yo. But I'll combine it with the MUS pre-Algebra DVD I picked up for a song at a used curricula sale and other things I like.

 

 

I do appreciate the time you took to answer my post. Thank you.

 

Jennie

 

There was a very heated discussion of Teaching Textbook Algebra 1 that you can find if you follow the Teaching Textbooks tag at the bottom of this thread. It's the one where the publisher/author (can't remember which) is quoted defending their materials. It did get rather heated, but was never locked, so it's not as hot as it could have been. There are some jewels of posts buried in that thread, and you'll see both sides.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Karin

[Robin in DFW]

I know A LOT of people are very opinionated about TT. What I have found is that typically those folks with gifted or accelerated students do not really like TT. I think it's great that they have math-gifted students...I wish mine were. BUT...they are not. They struggle with math and so TT has been a great alternative for us.

 

I haven't read any TT posts in ages, but being the glutton for punishment that I am I read this one. I used to read these posts and feel so terrible for doing my kids a disservice in the math department. I have SO gotten over it. After all the switching and miserable days, my kids are enjoying homeschooling as a whole much more...no more wondering what torturous math mom is going to punish them with today.

 

I hope TT serves my children decently.

 

My oldest went to ps through graduation and was in AP everything including upper level math. She made very good grades and we thought she was doing fine. When it came time for college math placement, she tested into beginning algebra...so...my point is...harder isn't always better...not for everyone anyway. I just want my kids to understand, not be rocket scientists...well, that would be really cool...

 

Chin up.

Robin

[Storm Bay]

I know A LOT of people are very opinionated about TT. What I have found is that typically those folks with gifted or accelerated students do not really like TT. I think it's great that they have math-gifted students...I wish mine were. BUT...they are not. They struggle with math and so TT has been a great alternative for us.

 

I haven't read any TT posts in ages, but being the glutton for punishment that I am I read this one. I used to read these posts and feel so terrible for doing my kids a disservice in the math department. I have SO gotten over it. After all the switching and miserable days, my kids are enjoying homeschooling as a whole much more...no more wondering what torturous math mom is going to punish them with today.

 

I hope TT serves my children decently.

 

My oldest went to ps through graduation and was in AP everything including upper level math. She made very good grades and we thought she was doing fine. When it came time for college math placement, she tested into beginning algebra...so...my point is...harder isn't always better...not for everyone anyway. I just want my kids to understand, not be rocket scientists...well, that would be really cool...

 

Chin up.

Robin

 

Robin--we are like this in other areas than math. I'm guilty as charged--my kids are mathy, so am I. When I speak of the weaknesses of TT it's for kids who are math or science oriented and want to either major in one of these in university or go into some math oriented career (such as being a journeyman plumber, etc). Then it's lacking. My dd and I learn Algebra by reading, so I love the writing in our two favourite algebra books because they really make points well. But some kids, like my ds so far, don't learn math well by reading textbooks.

 

My kids all have areas where we use things that others find lacking because my kids are not heading in that direction or hate it. eg, my eldest's history program has been sorely lacking compared with many on this board because she hates it and I choose my battles. She has yet to write a history essay (she'll have to in high school for requisite history courses) or to outline a history encyclopedia. She hasn't written a book report since she left ps at 8 (do they write them in gr 2?), and at 13 is just starting to really learn to write essays.

 

I hope I never sound too harsh with this in other threads. For example, when someone with a special needs child had trouble with TT, I suggested MUS as a help for understanding NOT what my mathy dd is using. I don't consider MUS Algebra what a future mathematician needs as a stand-alone Algebra programme, but Mr. Demme has helped my vs dd (who is mathy, but doesn't always get things the traditional way) a great deal in the earlier levels and we're going to use his pre-Algebra DVD as part of her pre-Algebra course. It's been proven helpful for many kids who have struggled with math, although not all. Plus, I like his style of teaching and he's always so patient on those videos/DVDs. I mean that sincerely, even if it comes across differently--I get frustrated sometimes when my kids don't get certain math concept "fast enough" and know that it's my problem, not theirs.

 

As for TT, it's not done, and I love the humour and a number of things about it. I suspect that it will be honed over various editions, but I will be (pleasantly) surprised if I ever learn that it has what it takes for a serious math/chemistry/physics student. My mother, who is gifted, was never mathy, nor is my kid brother, but my sister, Dad and I are mathy/logical/analytical by nature (although I'm also very sensitive while my dad and sister aren't--but don't get me wrong, my sister isn't some ogre.)

Edited December 12, 2008 by Karin

[LoriM]

My suggestion is to have him grade his papers for accuracy, and then YOU grade his corrections. Have him work all corrections fully, even if he "just forgot a sign." Encourage him that if he can easily identify his error, then it should be easy to fix.

 

My second suggestion is to grade the corrections ONLY. So, with answers in hand, he should have no excuses for his daily work to be less than 100%.

 

Finally, use assessments as a reteaching tool. If he misses several problems on the assessment, then have him rework those problems, and perhaps make up 3-4 more like each one for additional practice. Some texts have "reteaching masters" with extra practice; does TT?

 

LoriM