memory issues? boy? normal?

[bnwhitaker]

Does anyone have insight on possible issues with memory?    I have been focusing on some school issues I'm trying to overcome the last few days with my 8 yr old (9 June 1st).  And as I've been really pondering everything the last couple years I'm wondering if I've been missing something.   I have two teens DS's also and 8 DS.  He just struggles to memorize anything.  I have been chalking it up to him not being ready for school yet or his age.  I still believe that was part of it.  But now I'm starting to wonder if there is also maybe something I'm missing.     Here are some examples:

-Memorizing Verses - Very hard for him.  (my other two who are very different from one another both could memorize decently).   Shorter one sentence verses are difficult.  Been working on the new testament books for a long while now and he can get 1/2 way through with about 2 mistakes.  But he has been working on this for months.  (Not daily thou).  Any other verses were just too much in Awana (sparks and or cubbies never worked).  I had to take him out of TNT Awana this year because there was no way he could memorize it and he was beginning to feel so bad each week.  It did seem like a lot for a 3rd grader in my opinion thou.  

-  We did Classical Conversations for 2 years age 6 & 7.  He never memorized almost anything where as the rest of the class did a decent job.  He was also not interested at all other than to be with the children.  Never figured anything other than he would when he was older.

- I started a Club/Class this year every Tuesday where we go to do history/art/science and some memory work (Spanish & root words) and I teach a group of children age ranging 7-9.  He is also the furthest behind in this class with memorizing... memory work, vocab, science points we put to memeory like: Chemistry is the study of matter.   He wants to remember in class but often does not.  He will just guess.  I have incentives and no incentives.  I try to make a diverse way of including all learning types.  But I cant seem to figure his out.  Since this is not daily they all do not memeorize everything.  But they do some of it.  Him almost nothing.  Other than the roots, We have worked on those for about 2.5 years and if I do a hand movement with it he will remember like.  Bi means 2 (with 2 fingers up).  He can remember those well.

- I have been doing phonics (alphabet) for years and he still can not remember 6 letters.  

- We have Bible cards with pictures I've probably go over 80 times or more with him.  He will only remember a few usually the first 3 of 20 even though we learned them one by one.  He will give the same answer each time even though I've helped, corrected, and taught him other ways to remember it correctly.  I could tell you what he is going to say for each one.  

- Math facts,  addition 0's he a can do,  1's he adds it,  2's not quit grasping.  He can add fine.  But as far as remembering he could have 7 +2 figure it out and then have that same card again and still not know it.  The other parts of math he understands.  But the memory part is what is hard. 

- He can however recall ALL of starwars.  Names and all!  He could remember things from when he was like 2 years old.  So that part of memory was amazing I had always been wowed.  

I don't move on quickly in most curriculum that has to do with reading or math because it just doesn't seem like he remembers much solidly.  When I have moved on it's just too much.    He is and has been so advanced in just his personality since he was about 3.  He is always the most mature one in class.  I've always chalked that up to the fact he lives with 2 brothers 7 years older and mom/dad.  But  he emotionally is advanced for his age.   Friends are always a couple years older.  When he was say 5 and 6 he couldn't understand why all the other 5 and 6 year old's couldn't hold conversations with him or why they were rude/mean.  Well they weren't but they were just normal.  Most people, like his aunts and others he is around see he has always been so "big" for his age.  Seen it as a cute or neat thing.  He is super super creative.  He LOVES to play.  He Hates being part of anything structured (other than the class I teach).  He doesn't want to be part of sports (we are a very athletic family), music, art, etc.  He was going to sign up for soccer but then 2 days after the decision to possibly try it decided not to because, "it would put too much pressure on him".  He doesn't like to feel stressed out.  Sometimes I'm like what kind of kid is that in touch with not only with how he is feeling but what to do about it.  He has been on teams before just fyi.  Just did not like it.  He loves the sport, if played for fun.  His favorite being rodeo.  We are a ranching family.  He is very tough, athletic ability, and also active.  He makes "beats" like beat boxing since he was like 2.  Again he is from a ranching family.  This is not something he was taught.  Loves music.  We have offered for him to do any instrument (which he did piano and violin a bit) but that also fits into the "no structured activites for fun" list.  He loves being at home.  Hates to drive almost anywhere cause he dislikes to be in a car (since he was born).    

Not sure if I should post this somewhere else.  I feel clueless.  I mostly at this point just want to figure out which direction to go for learning.  

[Storygirl]

I think you have red flags for possible learning differences. The trouble with phonics suggests dyslexia, which can include not only trouble learning to read, but also difficulty with memorizing math facts.

Working memory is the term for the ability to hold facts and information accessible in the brain while using those facts. Some students have low working memory and need to have materials that are designed to help them. They may need extra practice or remedial help to get concepts into the long term memory, and they may need accommodations, such as number and letter charts, calculators, and sheets with math formulas printed on them, that they are allowed to refer to.

You have enough concerns that I would recommend getting professional educational evaluations. You can do this through the public school, even if you are homeschooling. The public school testing should include IQ testing, which has a subtest for working memory, and they can also evaluate reading and math. They will give you a report. There is a legal process to go through to get public school testing, so if you think you will do this, you can ask here on the LC board for advice. Many of us have been through that process. It's free.

You will get more information if you do private testing instead, through an educational psychologist or a neuropsychologist. They are expensive, and there can be long wait lists, but generally, you end up with a more comprehensive list of ways to help, if you do private testing. And the private psychs are usually better at explaining to you what is going on inside the brain that is causing the issues. The school is only required to decide whether the student needs more help than peers; though they may offer a label of a learning disability (Specific Learning Disability in Reading or Math), the school evaluations are not meant to give you full explanations about WHY there is a problem.

For some parents, getting the school testing is sufficient, and they can use the test scores and other results to figure out a plan for educating their child. For others, the private testing is more helpful. I've had both private testing and public school evaluations for my children, and I've found both to be helpful in different ways.

I think it's very good for you to look into this now, while he is still fairly young. Evidence shows that early identification of learning disabilities can make a big difference. Especially when it comes to reading.

If he does have dyslexia, standard phonics lessons will likely not be sufficient, and you will need to use special curricula meant for remediating reading disabilities. You can search for threads about this on the LC Board (there are lots!!) or post your own questions about programs you might want to use. Other families hire specially trained tutors or enroll in private dyslexia schools (I have done all of these things at various times for my dyslexic daughter).

[Storygirl]

Also, it's possible and even common to be extremely bright and also have learning disabilities.

The parts of your post that describe how he doesn't like team sports, doesn't like structured activities or being too overscheduled, and is very creative -- these can be personality differences or indications that he has strengths that are specific to him that perhaps your other family members don't share. Or they can be clues that he is compensating somehow for his weaker areas by avoiding things that seem too hard to him. If you choose to pursue evaluations (which I highly highly recommend), share these things with the psychologist, certainly.

[Storygirl]

I just read the answers that you got for this question on the Chat board. I agree with them. What you describe is very common for someone who is dyslexic.

And for what it's worth, Awana and Classical Conversations were both also poor choices for my children, due to the heavy demands on memorization. We needed a different approach. Memorization is not the only way to learn, but it's very common for homeschool teachers who embrace a classical philosophy to teach via memorization.

It can be hard to switch gears, but remember that your purpose is to help THIS child learn, so you will need to adjust your choices to suit his learning style. I would drop both Awana and CC. If Awana is the main offering for kids in your church, it may be appropriate to keep him in it but talk to the leaders about how he can participate with some modifications of the expectations. I would not pay money for CC for someone who cannot learn by their methods.

It would be a better use of funds to use them for evaluations and then for possible tutoring or the purchase of remediation materials (which often cost more money than regular curricula).

[domestic_engineer]

I agree with everyone else in that it sounds like dyslexia.  In addition to all the good info that you've received here and on the other board, the thing that stuck out to me is that Star Wars is (1) a visual input and (2) also a story, whereas nearly everything else you listed is rote memorization or memorization of snippets without context or a story.  While you ponder getting evaluations, here are some things that worked for us and might help you in the meantime so that both you and he can gain confidence .....

(1).   Building off of Dianne Craft's phonics cards, have him create a silly picture using the words that use the phoneme.  So for example, for "eigh" that says the long a sound, we put 8 apples on a scale to be weighed.  or for the /or/ sound, we drew a boy holding an OAR and a girl holding FOUR lumps of gold ORE standing on the FLOOR.  (admittedly that's a lot for one card but it works for my kiddo.)

(2),  Allowing the kiddo to immediately use the word/sound/fact in a silly story/sentence/conversation.

(3).  put more things you want him to remember into a story format.  Memorizing facts verbatim, even bible verses, is not the be-all--end-all.  you might try funny poems (perhaps with hand motions) for him to gain confidence in memorizing.  Or ... an offshoot of this idea .... put things into chants with a strong beat, perhaps that would tap into the musical side of his brain.

 

Also -- you mentioned that he didn't want to join soccer because he realized it would be too stressful for him.  this made me wonder if anxiety isn't also holding him back with his schoolwork.  "If it's difficult and thus stressful, then I don't really want to do it."  

Another thought - maybe he's bored with the repetition that is cause from waiting for him to remember his facts, or remember romans 5:8, or remember that 'Chemistry is the study of matter"; what if you went deep instead?    what if you studied patterns in math instead? or studied the doctrine of grace instead?  or watch video documentaries to dig deep into scientific concepts.  Maybe he's more the "big picture" kind of guy.

 

[domestic_engineer]

22 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Memorization is not the only way to learn, but it's very common for homeschool teachers who embrace a classical philosophy to teach via memorization.

this. 

[PeterPan]

Welcome to LC! It does sound like you're in the right place. 

Don't forget the Barton screening tests. I'll be interested to hear how they turn out if you want to share. People can help you interpret the results and make a plan. Also you can email or even call Barton herself and talk with her. She's a lovely person, very helpful.

[bnwhitaker]

5 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I just read the answers that you got for this question on the Chat board. I agree with them. What you describe is very common for someone who is dyslexic.

And for what it's worth, Awana and Classical Conversations were both also poor choices for my children, due to the heavy demands on memorization. We needed a different approach. Memorization is not the only way to learn, but it's very common for homeschool teachers who embrace a classical philosophy to teach via memorization.

It can be hard to switch gears, but remember that your purpose is to help THIS child learn, so you will need to adjust your choices to suit his learning style. I would drop both Awana and CC. If Awana is the main offering for kids in your church, it may be appropriate to keep him in it but talk to the leaders about how he can participate with some modifications of the expectations. I would not pay money for CC for someone who cannot learn by their methods.

It would be a better use of funds to use them for evaluations and then for possible tutoring or the purchase of remediation materials (which often cost more money than regular curricula).

 

Thank you Storygirl for all your input.  I can see that I will need to be changing the way I teach for sure.  We did drop Awana earlier this year because I began to see him start to feel bad he couldn't keep up and he also began to say he didn't want to go it was no longer fun for him.  The verses were way over where he was so we dropped.  CC we dropped last year end of year and I created a drop off day this year where other students come and I teach.  I've been using masterbooks America's Story and also Real Science 4 Kids and we do geography. We also had memory work for Spanish, Roots, & Math- grammar memory work.  I'm seeing most of these I will have to change some things up.   

[bnwhitaker]

5 hours ago, domestic_engineer said:

I agree with everyone else in that it sounds like dyslexia.  In addition to all the good info that you've received here and on the other board, the thing that stuck out to me is that Star Wars is (1) a visual input and (2) also a story, whereas nearly everything else you listed is rote memorization or memorization of snippets without context or a story.  While you ponder getting evaluations, here are some things that worked for us and might help you in the meantime so that both you and he can gain confidence .....

(1).   Building off of Dianne Craft's phonics cards, have him create a silly picture using the words that use the phoneme.  So for example, for "eigh" that says the long a sound, we put 8 apples on a scale to be weighed.  or for the /or/ sound, we drew a boy holding an OAR and a girl holding FOUR lumps of gold ORE standing on the FLOOR.  (admittedly that's a lot for one card but it works for my kiddo.)

(2),  Allowing the kiddo to immediately use the word/sound/fact in a silly story/sentence/conversation.

(3).  put more things you want him to remember into a story format.  Memorizing facts verbatim, even bible verses, is not the be-all--end-all.  you might try funny poems (perhaps with hand motions) for him to gain confidence in memorizing.  Or ... an offshoot of this idea .... put things into chants with a strong beat, perhaps that would tap into the musical side of his brain.

 

Also -- you mentioned that he didn't want to join soccer because he realized it would be too stressful for him.  this made me wonder if anxiety isn't also holding him back with his schoolwork.  "If it's difficult and thus stressful, then I don't really want to do it."  

Another thought - maybe he's bored with the repetition that is cause from waiting for him to remember his facts, or remember romans 5:8, or remember that 'Chemistry is the study of matter"; what if you went deep instead?    what if you studied patterns in math instead? or studied the doctrine of grace instead?  or watch video documentaries to dig deep into scientific concepts.  Maybe he's more the "big picture" kind of guy.

 

 

Love all you wrote, thank you!  Lots of great feedback and ideas to use or look at.  

I like the idea of "big picture".  I really line up more with the big picture idea its just most things I've been around are more the opposite. Is the big picture idea a "type" of teaching?  Just wondering so I can look up some different curriculum options.  Not really reading/math.  I think im understanding my options with that.  But mostly everything else.  Im wondering if just reading would be best, I mean me reading to him.  Or videos/docs/movies.  

Do you know if the whole fill in the blank thing after reading in different subjects is something that works well?  Something like Sonlight Science worksheets after reading the science or doing the experiment.  OR something like Notgrass history the workbook review questions to fill in.  Or is that something we shouldn't even worry about?  I know for my other two boys it helped them not only to know they needed to pay attention so they would have answers but also to help get it into memory.    

 

 

[bnwhitaker]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Welcome to LC! It does sound like you're in the right place. 

Don't forget the Barton screening tests. I'll be interested to hear how they turn out if you want to share. People can help you interpret the results and make a plan. Also you can email or even call Barton herself and talk with her. She's a lovely person, very helpful.

 

I sure appreciate all you help!  I did my test and It was totally fine.  I will still need to have my son to do it.

[domestic_engineer]

39 minutes ago, bnwhitaker said:

I like the idea of "big picture".  I really line up more with the big picture idea its just most things I've been around are more the opposite. Is the big picture idea a "type" of teaching?  Just wondering so I can look up some different curriculum options.  Not really reading/math.  I think im understanding my options with that.  But mostly everything else.  Im wondering if just reading would be best, I mean me reading to him.  Or videos/docs/movies.  

Do you know if the whole fill in the blank thing after reading in different subjects is something that works well?  Something like Sonlight Science worksheets after reading the science or doing the experiment.  OR something like Notgrass history the workbook review questions to fill in.  Or is that something we shouldn't even worry about?  I know for my other two boys it helped them not only to know they needed to pay attention so they would have answers but also to help get it into memory.    

 

 

For big picture style curriculum, you could search this board for the term "Whole-to-parts"   Here's one result (but not the thread that I have a vague memory of) that I got from using the following search terms in google: whole part curriculum site:forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic  

I can't answer your question about fill--in-the-blank format to test comprehension as I prefer to have my child summarize or give a narration or just discuss it one-on-one after reading.

 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, bnwhitaker said:

The verses were way over where he was so we dropped.

Fwiw, Awana has modified versions for kids with disabilities. Your leader should have offered to print them for you as stickers and put them in his book, easy peasy. It's what they offered us. For my ds, Awana is too hard because of the language. Up until about a year ago, he couldn't even repeat a sentence easily because his language was such a mess, let alone memorize. We started at a different church recently and I SO wanted him to be able to attend Awana for the social, to help get to know the kids. But it just isn't his reality. However if you want to try the verses, maybe try those modified verses.

https://www.awana.org/2018/02/06/reaching-kids-with-special-needs/  This will get you started. Somewhere they have a page and the printables.