S/O Lewelma's post - about assessment

[annegables]

  On 12/10/2019 at 11:44 AM, birchbark said:

When you outsource, there is much less for you, the mom, to worry about.

Well, I am going to have to disagree about outsourcing. I have found that outsourcing has led to much more stress and busyness in our homeschool, and has been the opposite of minimalism. Outsourcing means assessment, and assessment means being *prepared* on a certain day to be *judged* on your *performance.* Those three words -- prepared, judged, and performance -- are key.  I have always done a few outside courses to help motivate my kids to study for test, but in general when you are being judged on your performance, you are no longer learning for the sake of learning.  You are typically not also in LOVE with your life and your studies.  You feel judged, and feel pressure to perform for the person judging you. 

Now you would think that without tests and required output to drive a kid forward that not much would really be learned. But I have found the opposite. Having relaxed homemade courses without assessments and grades has meant that my kids could learn what they wanted to learn, at their own speed, to the depth that interested them, and then move on to the next thing. I can give them As for excellent learning without them having to *prepare* for a test. Preparation takes time and often results in lower-level learning on the blooms taxonomy chart. You have to memorize rather than working on interpretation, evaluation, and synthesis. Homemade classes for us have been *way* less stressful than outsources classes and have resulted in equally effective learning. Very definitely minimalism for us. 

 

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maybe you just need to focus on your relationship (which is a lot bigger deal in high school).

 

I did want to acknowledge this. Clearly, if this is your situation, it negates what I said above. 🙂 

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@lewelma said this in the "what does a minimalist homeschool look like" thread, and I dont know how to get a quote from one thread to another thread. I would love to discuss this, if it has not been discussed to death. I recently listened to "Assessments that Bless" by Andrew Kern on the Circe website and I am reading Dumbing Us Down by John Taylor Gatto. Both say what lewelma said.

I fully agree with this and I find assessment soul-sucking. BUT... I do so well with being assessed. I am really good at figuring out what the hoops are and working my tail off to meet some arbitrary target to get the A. It is how I found my significance in high school and college. I am desperately trying to have this not be my children's experience, of finding personal meaning and value from assessments. I teach to mastery, so I am not giving out grades (and I dont have high schoolers). And yet I have to keep reminding myself that what lewelma said is true for me. It is like I have to remind myself to not drink from the toilet water when there is fresh, pure water right next to it. 

[lewelma]

I'm glad you started this thread because I was going to too. 

I have come to believe that assessment is the antithesis of deep learning. Yes, assessment can drive students to complete school work, but in my experience the work completed is done at a surface level, done to meet teacher expectations, done without joy, and done in a way limits retention. Deep learning is the antithesis of this. I am not saying that no assessment should ever be done, but I am saying that if not carefully designed, you are not testing anything of value. Students are just jumping hoops and being rewarded or discouraged by the resulting judgement on their performance. 

What I have finally stumbled across is project-based work -- having clear guidelines for a completed project, having an excellent model we are trying to mimic, and having a flexible but generally known deadline to get it done. Projects synthesize many learning areas into one which helps with engagement and retention. And projects allow for creativity and individuality.  It is the holistic nature that is key. But also the lack of grading. 

Grading is about external evaluation of performance and is sole sucking. No one likes to be evaluated all the time.  My ds and I together compare his work to a model to decide what to improve.  We together decide if it is worth improving on this piece or work or to incorporate into the next piece of work.  I don't even ask him to give himself a grade.  What would that add? 

You read about high school kids even on this board who are super stressed in high school and taking 6 external online classes, and just run ragged with assignments to complete. It just seems like box ticking to me. How could your kid learn anything?  My kids could do the same 6 classes at home, not have to prepare and study for tests, not have the stress associated with strict deadlines, and still do better learning. They may cover less content, and not have done as well on the test as these kids, but my kids' learning sticks and is deeper and more meaningful. 

He in NZ, we have the National Exams that both of my boys will go through. Luckily for us, they are well designed to test the highest levels of Bloom's taxonomy. But if you want to work at that level across all your subjects, you really need 2 years not one.  So my younger has worked ahead to have 2 years for the 12th grade exams. This means less pressure, more engagement, and more deep learning. He needs time.

Assessments are not the devil, but they are if they are 1) poorly designed to test only copious quantities of facts and concepts, and 2) if to be a top student what you have to prove is that you can do many of these types of assessments in quick succession.  Why would we define a top student as able to memorize and spit out content fast.  What job requires that?  How does that make us better citizens of the world?    If you are interested in what deep meaningful assignments look like, read "Engaging Ideas" by Bean. Well worth your time.

But I will also say that of the students I work with in the school system, it is the *judgement* that is the problem.  If you get a bad grade, it means that *you* are not worthy.  Kids are *ranked* based on grades. RANKED.  How can you not feel lesser when you get a lesser rank?  You are basically never ranked again in your life, only as a teenager. The time when kids are most sensitive.  It is just horrible.  And I see cutting and mental illness as a result. 

For me, the key to my kids wanting to learn and retaining their learning is doing LESS.  That is why I brought it up in the minimalism thread. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by lewelma

[Little Green Leaves]

I largely agree with this but I do think that for a certain personality, test taking can be a useful part of education. It was definitely useful for me, a generally distracted student. Taking tests gave me a shot of adrenaline and focused my mind. I can still remember tests I took in high school. 

I also do think there are plenty of careers that reward that ability to work quickly and effectively under pressure. Law, finance, and to a certain extent tech all call on those skills, for example.

So I agree that students should focus on learning and should aim for mastery, rather than superficial, glib learning. Idon't think testing should be a big part of education but I think there is probably a place for it.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Little Green Leaves

[lewelma]

21 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I largely agree with this but I do think that for a certain personality, test taking can be a useful part of education. It was definitely useful for me, a generally distracted student. Taking tests gave me a shot of adrenaline and focused my mind. I can still remember tests I took in high school. 

I agree. But as homeschoolers we can be more nuanced and adapt to our kid. I see it over and over on this board, people trying to imitate school.  You can, but you don't have to. 

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I also do think there are plenty of careers that reward that ability to work quickly and effectively under pressure. Law, finance, and to a certain extent tech all call on those skills, for example.

Yes, this is exactly what I have told my ds. And he knows that he must be able to handle exams if he wants to go to university so he can be a geographer. But how many exams/tests/quizzes do you need to master the skill of quick thinking under time pressure? For my ds we are planning 6 timed external exams in high school -- Three in Nov 2020 and three in Nov 2021. That is it.  His life will not revolve around assessments, but he will have enough to learn the tricks and develop the skills.

Edited December 14, 2019 by lewelma

[Jackie]

My daughter is still young, so I have limited experience. I have found that I need to strictly limit how much we outsource because of the sheer time commitment involved with having someone else plan and assign the work, plus deadlines. She learned best when she is the one initiating the work, and it takes her a fraction of the time to learn the same material as it does if I’m the one initiating the topic. Free time is one of the biggest perks of homeschooling for us. DD has explored so many interests because she has the free time to do so, and committing hours to outsourced classes can cut deeply into that time.

DD has always been disappointed that she doesn’t get quizzes, tests, and grades. These are things that existed only in fiction for her, and she wanted them. I never issued any form of grade for her. Even our earlier outsourcing didn’t have these things, as we used providers that were more informal, such as Athena’s. She is learning a lot from her Physics class, but I have to say it has cured her desire for quizzes and tests, lol. The deadlines and assessment have influenced her to decide not to continue forward with outsourced high school-level classes in the next couple of years. She loves learning the information, but much more on her own terms.

[8filltheheart]

I actually think the conversation is more nuanced than assessment vs no assessment.  I do not give my kids tests.  I don't give them grades based on formal assessments.  But, even as discussion-based as our homeschool is, my kids are still "assessed" even if it isn't formally intended.  Math problems have right and wrong answers.  They know when they get them right and when they get them wrong.  When we go over their papers together, either their papers have few revisions to make or they have quite a few. Everything.......handwriting, spelling, reading, etc faces affirmation or need for correction/more time.....  Without "formally assessing" our kids, our kids are aware that they are constantly being assessed one way or the other.

I think from my perspective, the conversation is probably more about the learning environment.  Our homeschool is not driven by grades but understanding.  When things are wrong, we back up.  We break things down and rebuild them together in order to find where real understanding was lost and replaced with superficial understanding. We practice things, etc.  It isn't emotional.  It isn't time-driven b/c learning isn't about progressing to the next lesson (since very few things we even do are based on any type of distinguishable lesson----math probably being the exception.)  We progress naturally according to their pace of mastery vs. by some exterior motivation.

In high school, my kids do start to experience more formal type assessments.  That approach still isn't the majority of their classes, but enough of them so that when they step onto a college campus, the difference between our non-testing environment and the traditional book/quiz/test classroom environment is nothing more than a shrug of their shoulders. 

 

[RoundAbout]

We've been very happy with our experience with Lukeion Ancient Greek this term. It's rigorous and I think having deadlines and assessments makes sense in this kind of class where the vocabulary and grammar constantly build on themselves. DS is really happy he's progressing so fast compared to when he was trying to learn on his own. HOWEVER, I can't imagine outsourcing more than this. We like working at our own pace, diving deep and following rabbit trails. The stress of having to get X done on Y day in 6 different classes would simply have to lead to more shallow learning. 

[annegables]

5 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I actually think the conversation is more nuanced than assessment vs no assessment.  I do not give my kids tests.  I don't give them grades based on formal assessments.  But, even as discussion-based as our homeschool is, my kids are still "assessed" even if it isn't formally intended.  Math problems have right and wrong answers.  They know when they get them right and when they get them wrong.  When we go over their papers together, either their papers have few revisions to make or they have quite a few. Everything.......handwriting, spelling, reading, etc faces affirmation or need for correction/more time.....  Without "formally assessing" our kids, our kids are aware that they are constantly being assessed one way or the other.

I think from my perspective, the conversation is probably more about the learning environment.  Our homeschool is not driven by grades but understanding.  When things are wrong, we back up.  We break things down and rebuild them together in order to find where real understanding was lost and replaced with superficial understanding. We practice things, etc.  It isn't emotional.  It isn't time-driven b/c learning isn't about progressing to the next lesson (since very few things we even do are based on any type of distinguishable lesson----math probably being the exception.)  We progress naturally according to their pace of mastery vs. by some exterior motivation.

In high school, my kids do start to experience more formal type assessments.  That approach still isn't the majority of their classes, but enough of them so that when they step onto a college campus, the difference between our non-testing environment and the traditional book/quiz/test classroom environment is nothing more than a shrug of their shoulders. 

 

I fully agree with this. I am assessing in a meaningful, life-giving way. My kids know my standards. That is the beauty of what you described. That when you are assessing work, your children have a chance to re-do it to mastery. When I was in school, if I got a low grade on a paper, that was it. There was no chance to re-do and therefore a lot of the meaningful learning was missed. What is the point of grading a paper if there is no chance to correct the problems??? 

@lewelma, that is probably the fourth time in as many threads about a variety of topics that you mentioned Engaging Ideas. I finally just broke down and bought it. What is Christmas break for, anyways? Well , this book and another writing book you mentioned a while back. 

[lewelma]

34 minutes ago, annegables said:

 

@lewelma, that is probably the fourth time in as many threads about a variety of topics that you mentioned Engaging Ideas. I finally just broke down and bought it. What is Christmas break for, anyways? Well , this book and another writing book you mentioned a while back. 

I love the book because it is about creating meaningful assignments, graded or no.  How do you actually encourage learning?  How can you help a kid learn content to a deep level with all the top blooms taxonomy thinking.  It is written to college professors, but the ideas are easily relevant to high school, and on down. It opened my eyes to why so much that I see when I tutor is rigorous busywork rather than true learning. The assignments are simply poorly designed. 

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I do not give my kids tests.  I don't give them grades based on formal assessments.  But, even as discussion-based as our homeschool is, my kids are still "assessed" even if it isn't formally intended. 

Here in NZ the kids regularly refer to formative vs summative assessment.  Formative meaning to informally assess as you go to make sure you are learning appropriately, and summative meaning a performance evaluated for a grade.  I think it is virtually impossible to learn if you as the learner are not doing some formative assessment -- checking you are right, getting someone to comment on your papers, correcting your pronunciation based on a model or teacher, etc.  It is summative assessment that I think regularly takes over learning in schools and often in homeschools. And in my experience summative assessment effectively drives students based usually on fear of a poor evaluation, but it rarely helps with long term retention and deep insightful thinking. Clearly, there are exceptions (which is why I said rarely), but education has been driven for decades based on judgement and rankings, and I don't think it is generally helpful.

Edited December 15, 2019 by lewelma

[annegables]

9 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I love the book because it is about creating meaningful assignments, graded or no.  How do you actually encourage learning?  How can you help a kid learn content to a deep level with all the top blooms taxonomy thinking.  It is written to college professors, but the ideas are easily relevant to high school, and on down. It opened my eyes to why so much that I see when I tutor is rigorous busywork rather than true learning. The assignments are simply poorly designed. 

Here in NZ the kids regularly refer to formative vs summative assessment.  Formative meaning to informally assess as you go to make sure you are learning appropriately, and summative meaning a performance evaluated for a grade.  I think it is virtually impossible to learn if you as the learner are not doing some formative assessment -- checking you are right, getting someone to comment on your papers, correcting your pronunciation based on a model or teacher, etc.  It is summative assessment that I think regularly takes over learning in schools and often in homeschools. And in my experience summative assessment effectively drives students based usually on fear of a poor evaluation, but it rarely helps with long term retention and deep insightful thinking. Clearly, there are exceptions (which is why I said rarely), but education has been driven for decades based on judgement and rankings, and I don't think it is generally helpful.

I love it when my brain gets words to ideas I have been thinking over! 

I am really excited to read Engaging Ideas. All the Amazon reviews are glowing. 

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, annegables said:

I am really excited to read Engaging Ideas. All the Amazon reviews are glowing. 

Hope you love it as much as I have!

Glad you appreciate the words!

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by lewelma

[birchbark]

On 12/14/2019 at 12:13 PM, annegables said:

  On 12/10/2019 at 11:44 AM, birchbark said:

When you outsource, there is much less for you, the mom, to worry about.

Well, I am going to have to disagree about outsourcing. I have found that outsourcing has led to much more stress and busyness in our homeschool, and has been the opposite of minimalism. Outsourcing means assessment, and assessment means being *prepared* on a certain day to be *judged* on your *performance.* Those three words -- prepared, judged, and performance -- are key. 

Actually, those three words are what truly propelled my son into learning. Perhaps this is where you need to know your student, but for my type-A, extroverted son, he thrived on accountability. I am generally a Charlotte-Mason-type homeschooler, and I initially pictured our high school being more relaxed and home-brewed. But the potential was definitely not being reached. I was astounded at how DS stepped up to the plate with a little outside pressure. 

I do understand what you are saying, though. I myself learn and perform much better without pressure.

 

 

 

 

 

[annegables]

21 hours ago, WendyAndMilo said:

DS (who turns 13 in one week, 7th grade) thrives on assessments and it's good for him.  He requests 3-4 judged music performance events a year and more often than not, he pushes it to the very last minute and goes into the room with a barely memorized piece with poor timing....and then knocks it out of the ballpark, playing perfectly and getting superior marks.  It's because of this that I put him in a few online classes this year (all high school level).  I'm quite pleased with the tests and homework in all the classes as they are a natural outpouring of what has been learned in class and if you've put in the normal amount of time and paid attention, it takes very little to get high marks.  No trick questions or oddballs, like I remember having in school.

It reminds me of a quote I read in some homescshool magazine I get by So-and-So Grant, I believe: "True education is a form of repentance.  It is a humble reminder that we have no yet learned all we need to learn, we have not read all that we need to read, and we have not become all that we need to become." I think good assessments are a way for a student to reflect: "Did I put good effort into this asssignment?" "Have I done completed this with excellence?" "What else do I need to work on?" "How am I becoming better through this?"  

It's far too easy for students to delude themselves into thinking they are better than they are without *good* outside assessments, whether from mom or other teacher.  So I agree with the PP that this is more about good vs bad assessments.

I agree. I am not anti-assessment, not at all. But I think the way conventional school uses assessment is often unhelpful at best. What you described sounds like a superior form of assessment, in part because the assessment is personalized. 

Also, I think that conventional assessments allow people to delude themselves. Case in point. My kids' friend thinks she is a genius because she is the smartest person in her elementary school class of 25 kids. This is probably true, but, um... this is a very low bar. And she is completely unaware of how very low this bar is. I think it is appropriate to have an accurate understanding of things. It does not do a person any good to have an over-inflated sense of brilliance.

On the other hand, I also disagree with comparing people, especially children. I am conflicted!